Worst wonder?

[Lennier]

I voted for SE. It's supposed to be for speeding space victories, but as TMIT has shown, it will slow your victory down >99.9% of the time. The Chicken Pizza may be poor ROI, but at least it does what it claims to do.

 

[Doshin]

Chichen Itza has definitely saved my cities from being lost to sneak attacks in the past.

The Hagia Sophia is dangerous in the hands of the lazy (me). The last time I captured it early, I managed my 8 city empire with 3 Workers. Think of the maintenance savings! But then, when Steam Power and Railroad hit (empire now at c.14 cities), I suddenly realized how long it would take to establish a rail network.

Two turns later, Monty sneak attacked and captured 2/3rds of my work force.

Presumably the one remaining Worker would have unionized at this point.

 

[Manco Capac]

@Doshin

I like the out of the box way of thinking you have.
I am surprised that Chichen Itza was after all useful. My argument why I thought it was a bad wonder came from siege existence why just slow down the AI stacks but will just take defense down to zero just like usual. Indeed, that wonder is built around the same period as the AI has sieges, so few uses. Furthermore, slowing down AI stacks can lead to stack reinforcements, which is mighty dangerous and the least wanted situation.

But it seems my lack of experience didn't help me to see that possible occasion where that wonder is useful. Can you elaborate about your positive experience with that wonder?

 

[Manco Capac]

All wonders with the right modifier are wonderful while losing it.

 

[El_Machinae]

I only insist on building the Space Elevator because I'm such a fanboi of the real thing. I'll build it whenever I go for a space victory (it's a handicap I give myself). Now, only a small portion of my games are space victories, but still, it's thematically important to me.

 

[Doshin]

@Tachy

It's still not very good, but here is one instance I recall, playing as Gilgamesh:

The date is 200AD. I am at war with Gandhi. Of the other AI, Monty is also at war with India. Zara and Mansa are at war with the Dutch. Pericles, the final AI, started plotting soon after we met, but he is at the other end of the globe...

Spoiler :

...so I should be safe right?

WRONG.

The stack ten turns before, 1AD, via Worldbuilder:

Spoiler :

200-225AD:

Spoiler :

On the following turn:

Spoiler :

Delhi whipped an Elephant and then an Archer, or something. I forget exactly. Old game.

I think Pericles had two attack script units (the Chariot and Horse Archer) and the rest were marked to attack the city. The stack arrives and can attack directly, but Chichen Itza defenses happen to kick in that turn. So the "city attack" stack waits while the Catapults bombard. In the mean time, the two attack script units suicide (mounted units vs. Elephants).

This leaves Pericles with five Catapults and two units that can actually kill the defenders and capture the city. After I destroy one of these, he cannot possibly capture the city (two defenders, more whipped).

The Parthenon, Hagia Sophia, Spiral Minaret, and Shwedagon Paya. All safe! Thanks to... *drum roll*:

Spoiler :

In short, I value the wonder when I am over-stretched during a war and a captured city's borders pop, providing instant defense. It is also useful to ward off surprise naval attacks. But don't get me wrong. I'd never build it.

Also, as a point of interest:

Spoiler :

Just 16% needs to be bombarded, not 25%? I guess because the city's borders pop in between turns? Which is interesting, if that's what happened.

 

[AdamCrock]

I have voted on Space Elevator , Idk why people voted on Internet , I think it's quite good

 

[Antilogic]

I have voted on Space Elevator , Idk why people voted on Internet , I think it's quite good

How else would me and my fellow dutchfires post without it?

 

[lymond]

I have voted on Space Elevator , Idk why people voted on Internet , I think it's quite good

Also considering the fact that it is not a wonder

 

[Manco Capac]

Semantic, semantic...

 

[Funky]

I voted for SE. It's supposed to be for speeding space victories, but as TMIT has shown, it will slow your victory down >99.9% of the time.

As I explained in my previous posts in this thread, there are definitely situations in which the SE can prove useful (and even make the difference between winning or losing), even if these situations are rare and depend on settings. TMIT's calculations are totally correct, but they don't take into consideration the sometimes occuring necessity to have to go to war against other AIs who are far ahead in the space race to stop them from winning. (For an example see my last post).

I'd agree that the SE is very often useless, but nowhere near 99.9% of the time, more like 90%-95%. A wonder which usually sucks but can have a significant impact 5% of the time is still better than a wonder with close to 0% usefulness like Hagia Sophia or Chichen Itza (at least in my games I have never had a use for these wonders that would come close to justifying their cost).

 

[Gzz]

Stoneheange... what's the point of THAT ?

 

[topsecret]

Stoneheange... what's the point of THAT ?

OCC culture.

 

[Funky]

The henge would be a great wonder, IF... And unfortunately there are so many "ifs"

It must be built early, or some other Civ will get it. But to get it we need mysticism, which is usually a sub-par choice compared to other techs. Civs that start with mysticism either aren't industrious, or don't need it (Inca with their terraces). Civs which aren't industrious need stone (with neither industrious nor stone the building time is hardly worth it), but we need masonry to make use of it, which, again, means delaying other more important techs. And in the early game, building workers/settlers for chopping and rapid expansion, or barracks/units for a fast rush are usually superior choices.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

As I explained in my previous posts in this thread, there are definitely situations in which the SE can prove useful (and even make the difference between winning or losing), even if these situations are rare and depend on settings. TMIT's calculations are totally correct, but they don't take into consideration the sometimes occuring necessity to have to go to war against other AIs who are far ahead in the space race to stop them from winning. (For an example see my last post).

I don't factor the need of robotics to stop other civs from winning because it's 100% a junk argument. If you are going to even bother getting robotics in such a scenario (and you'd need to be seriously lacking in resources to opt to rely heavily on mechinf instead of alternatives), guess what you need? . That's what you need. And where do you spend them? NOT on the worst wonder in the game, but rather on units. If you're going to have enough power to intercept the AI space race, you're going to need to put those into actually doing it.

Your theory is even further lulzy because if you're actually that far behind in the space race, the AI *will* get robotics fairly early and it *will* build the wonder itself.

Not to mention that conquering the AI, combined with the clear ability to do it and the act of doing so, does not set you on a path towards a space race victory. Getting a space win this way is kind of like stomping down on all AI except 1 and then going for a culture win. Sure, it's a "culture" win, but the real VC was actually military. If you can cut down the single most technologically advanced AI in the world such that you can take his capitol and live to tell the tale, you will have enough oomph to just kill everybody else too. Space is an option, but so is just finishing the beatdown...and you just invested 10000+ into units!

SE is STILL a crappy option even in your scenario, although in this case you're at least likely to be capturing it.

I'd agree that the SE is very often useless, but nowhere near 99.9% of the time, more like 90%-95%.

Wrong. I only put 99.9% of the time because there is a theoretical possibility that it might come in handy at some point. I'm still waiting on even ONE BTS example where it actually has done so. If you're so sure, then show us this mythical game where the SE meaningfully improved your space time, in a game that's actually sensibly committed to pursuing that VC.

A wonder which usually sucks but can have a significant impact 5% of the time is still better than a wonder with close to 0% usefulness like Hagia Sophia or Chichen Itza (at least in my games I have never had a use for these wonders that would come close to justifying their cost).

These wonders don't come on a tech that is itself generallya mistake to get and have demonstrable benefits in GPP and in rare cases (for chichen itza), actual benefits.

But ok. Give me an industrial-era save not already committed to teching robotics, where you can win space faster by teching robotics and building SE yourself. Show us something we've never seen on the forum before. Prove this wonder more worthwhile than ironclads and earlier border city culture/gpp. Theories are great, but you're presenting one that has been shown wrong time and time again and have yet to produce a single exception, ever.

Don't go claiming it's more likely when there are literally 0 observed cases on the forum of it being beneficial .

 

[Funky]

TMIT:

I respect your judgements and calculations. But I offered you an example of a case in which the SE didn't only have a use, but actually won me the game, so please don't pretend it didn't happen. In this example I was nowhere near being able to win any other VC. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have won by space race without the SE. Yes, the civ I had to attack did have robotics before me, but I had saved an engineer to help build it. I don't know if my rival was building it or how far away it was from completing it. The point is, I got it. And that won me the game against the second civ going for space victory, after I had denied the first civ their victory by razing their cap. I don't see how I could have won in any other way. If you do, please enlighten me. Anyway, there's no need for this provocative tone, since I actually agree with you that usually the SE is useless. But please accept that with my settings and in rare (but not that rare!) situations it can actually be useful, as I demonstrated with this game.

 

[Lennier]

I think what TMIT is saying is that if you had enough military to go in a raze the #1 civ's capitol, you could have won by domination or conquest.

 

[Funky]

Nah, I was nowhere near being able to do that. Several Civs were larger than me, and militarily much stronger, especially Carthage, the no 1. I managed to raze their cap by using an invasion force which I brought with transports, after my ships had reduced his defenses to 0. I'm at my girlfriend's place over Easter, when I'm home I'll check if I still have a save.

 

[MilesBeyond]

Versailles for me. I get the same effect from the Forbidden Palace, and I have to research Divine Right. It's just not normally worth it for me.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. Plus the same effect as FP for like 5x the hammer cost? Uh, no thanks.

However, I think all wonders have a purpose in some situation

Yeah, for example, the SE is awesome when you are playing on Deity and still find it too easy and want to handicap yourself late game by wasting tons of hammers

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I respect your judgements and calculations. But I offered you an example of a case in which the SE didn't only have a use, but actually won me the game, so please don't pretend it didn't happen.

No, what you have done is *claim* that you had a case where SE "won you the game", but have yet to show evidence that such was the case. This is not unlike me claiming I won the game by building 4 scouts at the beginning of the game before anything else, then going on to win. I could even claim the scouts "won me the game", using the same argumentative approach. It sounds ridiculous, but it's the same line of thinking.

I'm pretty sure the SE did *not* win you that game. You can't even give me concrete numbers...just a story about how you got mechinf and SE and went on to win. I can do that too, but that doesn't mean SE increased the rate of victory, let alone won the game. I want to see it!

And that won me the game against the second civ going for space victory, after I had denied the first civ their victory by razing their cap.

??? You "won the game" off this but can't even give a decent quantification of the #turns it saved or how many hammers. I'm assuming you had already burned multiple golden ages too.

I don't see how I could have won in any other way. If you do, please enlighten me.

...although I admit that might be more tedious. In that case, just build space parts and + paras.

I think what TMIT is saying is that if you had enough military to go in a raze the #1 civ's capitol, you could have won by domination or conquest.

+1 .

Nah, I was nowhere near being able to do that. Several Civs were larger than me, and militarily much stronger, especially Carthage, the no 1. I managed to raze their cap by using an invasion force which I brought with transports, after my ships had reduced his defenses to 0. I'm at my girlfriend's place over Easter, when I'm home I'll check if I still have a save.

I am *very* interested in a pre-robotics save. Once you've already committed to robotic, you've already made the key mistake. For that choice to be valid, you must have had absolutely 0 other cost-effective alternatives for razing an AI capitol. If you did, teching robotics was the central element in slowing your victory time...and indeed this is consistently the biggest problem with it.

That said, if you have access to uranium, you have access to the complete destruction of any large AI stack, not to mention turn-you-declare burning of virtually any AI capitol anywhere. I've been the 3rd civ to launch before and in, and one of the capitols was inland on another continent lol.