Worth it to build Scotland Yard and Security Bureau?

[Raphs_Sai]

Playing on Immortal, with my first Great Spy and I used it to infiltrate so I could steal Guilds, Engineering, and Philosophy.

Now I got my 2nd Great Spy in the Industrial Era, I'm wondering if it is worth it to build a Scotland Yard. Although +100% EP looks good on paper, unless if you actually increase the Espionage Slider, the 100% bonus will only amount to about 40 EP's (through specialists and buildings). 3000/40 = 75 turns to make up the difference of infiltrating. That's quite a lot of turns starting from the mid-game. Seems better if I just infiltrate again so I could steal Steam Power or something to give me immediate benefits.

I also question the Security Bureau. Of course, you should defend against espionage, but 220 hammers is a lot to suck up (compared to 40 hammers for a spy). Most of my cities are crappy coastal/tundra/ice cities so hammers are hard to come by (I only have 2 cities with 20+ hammers base production). I'm actually glad I was randomly picked Roosevelt so I could have fast Forges, Lighthouses, and Courthouses.

 

[Sisiutil]

As with many things in Civ, it depends on the circumstances.

In some games, the AI civs spread their espionage points around evenly; this usually means that courthouses and a spy specialist here and there gives me enough EPs to see what everyone's researching fairly early in the game. That's one of my primary goals of EPs, since it allows me to direct my research more strategically (avoiding duplicate research of techs I should be able to trade for, switching if I need to race to a wonder/free prize tech, trading for gold when the AI has almost researched a tech to completion, etc.). In those circumstances, Scotland Yard and the other espionage buildings are of limited use to me. Spy specialists get used for Golden Ages or, if there's a tech somewhere I really want, an infiltration mission.

However, in some games, for whatever reason, the AIs start directing their EPs towards me from early on, meaning I lack that insight into what everyone's researching. Sometimes the map leads to the creation of multiple colonies, again making me spread out my EPs more thinly. In those games, SY and espionage buildings can come in handy. I'll usually focus on one specialist city (not usually my GP farm) and make it specialize in espionage. So a GSpy builds SY there, I build all EP-producing and multiplying buildings there, and run all the spy specialists I can. If I can't justify using a GSpy for a GA or for infiltration, I'll settle them in that city for even more EPs.

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

It doesn't make sense to convert a commerce city into an espionage city, but it can make a lot of sense to convert a specialist city into an espionage city. In fact, that's often where most of my espionage comes from. I rarely run the espionage slider at anything other than 0%. If I pop a GSpy I'll usually use him to build Scotland Yard in a decent specialist city (not my GP farm, though, unless I'm playing an espionage strategy). Any GSpies after that get settled in the same city (or used for infiltration missions if I have an advanced rival with lots of juicy techs to steal). Run spy specialists there and prioritize the espionage buildings.

^From about two years ago, in response to a question from me...

As with many things in Civ, it depends on the circumstances.

In some games, the AI civs spread their espionage points around evenly; this usually means that courthouses and a spy specialist here and there gives me enough EPs to see what everyone's researching fairly early in the game. That's one of my primary goals of EPs, since it allows me to direct my research more strategically (avoiding duplicate research of techs I should be able to trade for, switching if I need to race to a wonder/free prize tech, trading for gold when the AI has almost researched a tech to completion, etc.). In those circumstances, Scotland Yard and the other espionage buildings are of limited use to me. Spy specialists get used for Golden Ages or, if there's a tech somewhere I really want, an infiltration mission.

However, in some games, for whatever reason, the AIs start directing their EPs towards me from early on, meaning I lack that insight into what everyone's researching. Sometimes the map leads to the creation of multiple colonies, again making me spread out my EPs more thinly. In those games, SY and espionage buildings can come in handy. I'll usually focus on one specialist city (not usually my GP farm) and make it specialize in espionage. So a GSpy builds SY there, I build all EP-producing and multiplying buildings there, and run all the spy specialists I can. If I can't justify using a GSpy for a GA or for infiltration, I'll settle them in that city for even more EPs.

^From a few minutes ago, whilst I was digging through the annals of CFC

Doggoneit, Sisiutil! Here I am scouring the n00b questions thread, looking for your response from way back (which basically forged my espionage strategy), and here you go already having answered the question!

...matter of fact, I was pimpin' that same strategy just yesterday...

EDIT: I am remiss! Call the band, quick!

Welcome to CFC, Raphs Sai!

 

[Drakarska]

LOL, pretty much agree with the above. My own personal caveat to that would be if I have Sitting Bum on the same continent as me. If that's the case and if I can afford the hammers, I'm definitely making a SS city to black op the crap out of Ol' Featherhead.

 

[Sisiutil]

Interesting... why the mad-on for SB?

 

[Raphs_Sai]

Interesting... why the mad-on for SB?

Well, I'm just trying to justify the 220 hammer cost to defend my city against spies when a 40 hammer spy will do. It's tough to cough out 15-25 turns to build it cuz most of my cities are coastal/tundra.

 

[God-Emperor]

You don't have to build them everywhere, but it is often a good idea to build them somewhere (or multiple somewheres). The extra espionage points they produce will directly make it a little more expensive for the enemies to use espionage against you (the ratio of total points ever produced between them and you affects the cost of missions, so producing more points means their missions will end up costing a little more in espionage points than they would have) and free up the spy who was trying to protect that city to do other things, like protect some tundra city, since the espionage protection from a spy and from the building do not stack. They are the same bonus so you only need one or the other.

And the reason people get mad at Sitting Bull (in the above I think SB = Sitting Bull, not Security Bureau) is that he absolutely loves espionage, especially the mission to poison your wells. If you are next to him, or possibly just near him, his espionage activities will often be inducing unhealthiness in one or more more of your cities more or less continuously if you don't stop him. (The best way to stop him is to kill him rather than do espionage yourself, but that is not always practical.)

 

[lindsay40k]

I'm only interested in SY if I'm running an Espionage game. Otherwise, a GSpy is a GA or free tech.

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

Got a somewhat-related question: If an AI has Scotland Yard in their city, and I take it over, does SY survive there? I know Academies do...

 

[Sisiutil]

Got a somewhat-related question: If an AI has Scotland Yard in their city, and I take it over, does SY survive there? I know Academies do...

In my experience, yes, it does. It's a nice little bonus; if the city has a decent food supply, I'll make it specialize in espionage.

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

Cool, thanks.