WOTM 03 First spoiler

[Airny]

I'm at least happy to see, it's not my fault that it going bad for me.
I don't have much time atm, so I'll post my progress later.
But two things I wanna say:
-Did the admins even try to play this without abusing knowledge of the map?
-It would have been a lot easier, if you put the copper one tile closer to our starting position. Cause the way it is, Cyrus gets it even if you rush for IW!

 

[andybrown65]

I thought the placement of copper was fine - the 2nd city just overlaps with the first by a lot - but all the jungle stops you working most of the tiles anyhow, untill you can farm the bananas.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

ISTM the interesting thing about the start is that the start location itself isn't too bad. It's when you look for a 2nd city that the problems happen.

If you have BW then SE is the obvious location (even settling on top of the copper if necessary to by-pass the need to clear the jungle) but it's close to Cyrus's start and judging from all the reports here, he pretty much always gets there first.
North is OK-ish, but doesn't get you any strategic resources and has no food resources, which for me makes for a big 'no' unless I'm desparate.
Further North by the horses is I think an outstanding location, easy to defend too thanks to the mountains. It's where I'd have put my 2nd city if I hadn't been expecting to get a religion founded there (on the coast would've been a huge waste of the rapidly expanding culture from the religion), and with hindsight I suspect it's where I should've gone. But of course it's a long way from the capital and so carries a big financial penalty in the early game, as well as making your civ as a whole harder to defend (even though that city would be easy to defend).
East is good after iron working. Horses and ivory and food. But it needs a lot of workers to clear the jungle quickly, which most people won't have at that stage. Plus to get the horses you need to settle a bit further from the capital than I suspect a lot of people would want to do.
SW is a decent location with the fish (unfortunately for me, Egypt's island city claimed the fish soon after I settled there, leaving that city without its food ). But SW suffers from the disadvantage that it doesn't give you any strategic or happiness resources.

With hindsight the way to grab a strategic resource if you lose the copper is probably to settle on the coast just West of the capital and build an obelisk/use an artist to get the iron into your borders. (You still need sailing before you can mine it). But the trouble is it's a pretty a silly location (due to proximity to the capital) in just about every other respect, so if anyone actually did that I'd be quite suspicious that they had foreknowledge).

Of course, if anyone actually settled the capital 2S from the starting location, as some people in the pre-game discussion were pondering about, then those people would be fine - they'd get the copper in the capital's radius. (More evidence that the blue circle is taking unknowable resources into account?). But again that'd be a bit of an odd thing to do at the start since if you look at that area without seeing the copper, there's no apparent reason to settle there in preference to the actual start.

 

[Murky]

I'd say this is pretty close to a no-win (on the first try) scenario.

 

[Gyathaar]

-It would have been a lot easier, if you put the copper one tile closer to our starting position. Cause the way it is, Cyrus gets it even if you rush for IW!

I did have the copper 1 tile closer to the capital when I tested..
I moved it one tile further away to give the player the option to grab the copper early by settling on top of it instead of researching IW and clearing jungle... problem was i didn't test properly after moving the copper, so the move that I thought would make the game easier did in fact end up making the game much harder

 

[crunch]

After a few restarts...
I got bronze working from a hut. Stole worker from Ramesses and Cyrus (both accepted peace quickly). Settled Vienne near copper (needed border expansion). At around 2500 BC, I researched Iron Working. At around 1500 BC got Stonehenge and barracks in capital and copper connected. And researched Alphabet. Then, declared on Cyrus, got Persepolis (with Great Wall), razed another. Left him with one city near 5 elephants. Then, declared on Ramesses, keeping several cities. Left him with one city at northern shore. Got lot of techs. Then eliminated Cyrus (kept elephant city). Then, eliminated Ramesses (razed).

Three great generals joined Bibracte (which built Heroic Epic). Vienne built Great Library. Right now, I am in the process of crippling Hannibal. Shaka is still unharmed and a big threat. Isabella too, but we share religion and she's the only one who trades with me. Except maybe one off-shore partner.

 

[Vynd]

Wow... I made some early mistakes in my game that I thought led to my demise, but now it looks like I actually did relatively well. This game was just plain hard.

I'm going to save my entire write-up for the final spoiler, since Part 2 would be awfully short otherwise.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I moved it one tile further away to give the player the option to grab the copper early by settling on top of it instead of researching IW and clearing jungle... problem was i didn't test properly after moving the copper, so the move that I thought would make the game easier did in fact end up making the game much harder

This gives an interesting insight into all the decisions that go into creating the map, thanks Gyathaar! I'd always assumed it was little more than creating a few random maps then making any tweaks as necessary to the selected map to remove any obvious problems with it - but reading your posts, it's obviously a rather more complicated procedure that takes a lot more thought than I'd imagined - in particular the fact that you're having to guess (or test) how the AI is going to behave.

 

[skiorht]

Chalk up another probable loss. I'm still alive in AD1220, but the writing is on the wall and I'll be lucky to survive to SS launch. A victory seems like a pipe-dream. As my second foray into the WOTM/GOTM land, it's not a great success.

I settled in place and went for an early religion, and got Hinduism by working the spice. Then I picked up AH & BW, and realised I was going to wage a culture battle against Cyrus to secure the bronze. I put my second city in the middle of the jungle NE of bronze, and researched IW to connect it. I managed to fit one more city on the coast, and grabbed a barbarian city byt the two silks in the NW. I was doing OK, but seeing Ramses pull ahead in tech scared me a lot.

Soon I realised that I would never be able to wage an effective war against my neighbours using the UU. I went on a diplomatic offensive, spreading Hinduism to no less than three other civs. Keeping both Cyrus and Ramses pleased gave me a window to try and shoot for GLib (failed when Ramses got a GE). Cyrus, Hannibal & Ramses formed a nice buffer and had several brief wars with Ragnar & Shaka, so I was able to keep in touch with the pack. Unfortunately, Shaka stomped hard on Ramses and forced the Egyptians to switch to Judaism.

I was prepared for a hard ride as soon as I saw the parameters. I'm a perpetual Prince player - I'm always on the verge of getting my Monarch game working when a new version or a patch hits me and I fall back to a lower level. I've been playing a fair amount with 2.08 and the AI improvements really hurt when combined with AI bonuses at Monarch and above.

 

[amh52]

Another loss here. At about 800bc Shaka declared on me and moved within 3 squares of my capital with an axeman, 2 impis and an archer. He had another axeman and impi a couple squares away. At that time I still only had warriors and it looked really bad. I pop-rushed a dunn, built a couple more warriors and brought the other 2 warriors I had in the field back to the capital. Still 5 turns later I lost it and quit. I am not sure why he declared on me. I had barely met him and didn't even know where his capital was. I had no religion and had done nothing to upset him. He was just annoyed from the start and I assume it is a random thing that he declared on me. Or maybe he thought I was weak...

I was doing ok at the time but I don't think I would have won anyway after seeing how tough the game is in my replays. What seems to work best for me is to put a city NE of the bronze, beeline to IW, build a whole bunch of Gallic warriors and take out Egypt. This gives me a decent area and some good land to start rebuilding my economy. If I can recover I should be ok although I haven't finished the game yet.

I don't mind having a more challenging game once in a while and I certainly still enjoy this one in spite of all the drawbacks. It is just a bit unfortunate that it is the first WOTM after the patch.

Good luck to everyone!

 

[Sarek]

Went for Buddhism...uh, not.
Went for Hinduism (even bigger mistake)...what was I thinking!
Missed copper!
Boxed in!
Archers only...?!?

This is not encouraging!

* Hope BLAKE is playing this game and will file a DETAILED report

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm curious to see IF there will be some winner this month (I was impressed by Armageddon's posts).

What i'd like to say here is that in my test game with same settings, i'm winning, and with a good advantage.

I can say the AI is closest to emperor/immortal level until, say, education, but, after this the level is monarch-dot (ok i own an entire continent).

another thing is that "aggressive AI" seems to mean not only versus the human ... the other continent is a battlefield.

another strange thing happens: 1 AI continue to change vassal/free state with another one, with no wars between them ... really strange

 

[Manic_]

I settler NE of starting location by accedent, my cat jumped on my lap and I flicked my mouse. I did think of restarting but thought that i would get another city with the corn (cap still had the cow) so that i would at least have 2 nice cities with all the jungle room about. It turned out quite nice too for my next 2 city locations.
I found cyrus quickly (sent my scout that way) and went off searching past him. I got 3 goodie huts in total (the ones above hannie) which i thought was quite good for a cramped map. Although i think i lost all my early units to bears (it seems like they were after me :s).
I went mining - agri - bw - wheel - iw (because i saw the copper) - ah
I actually got lucky as hell, with an iron popping up to the west of the starting location, so i didnt actually need the copper (but i was connecting it anyway).
I chopped like mad and have a health problem in my cities becasue only the 2 health res (fishing later but they would just get pillaged until i get gome trireems out).
Early war with cyrus to capture his city near the bronze, and also razed another before giving peace for 240 gold.
Isabela desided to attack me also, but didn't do too much. Landed some horse archers with a gally, but i had a few spears by then.
For me egypt is my closest friend, and also the run away ai, so not sure how ill deal with him.
This for me is the hardest game i have played in GOTM.
I'll be lucky if i can win this, i'm going for domination now i have cats but it's going to be hit and miss, i cant see how anyone could win diplo, unless you vassal other civs and have enough pop to not need any other votes, in my game the ai all friendly with eachother and hate me.

EDIT-

I also have to say that its really annoying the times i loose with 60% odds. Even 70% odds i only win 2/5 times (i know that doesnt make any sence but you know what i mean).
I wonder if the 'odds' are not actually correct to game mechanics in the new patch :s ?
It just seems that you need 75% to get a 50-50 win ratio...

 

[godotnut]

Godotnut's Top Ten Reasons We Should All Be Thankful to Gyathaar for Kicking Our Asses with This Map

10. It's been a "learning experiece."

9. It's put a little of the ol' "fear of God" into us for future games, so that we won't take them lightly.

8. The improved AI demonstrated in this game is unlikely to appear quite as tough next time.

7. We got rid of Brennus, the putz, with his stupid Gallic Warrior (defensive bonus on hills -- whoopey!)

6. Newer players got to watch more experience players freak out in this thread.

5. Will surely offer some novel results when the results are released. Will the highest score be a win or a loss?

4. Puts a new meaning to the phrase "fastest finish."

3. Our cats and other loved ones likely found considerable amusement watching us curse the monitor and shake our fists at the sky.

2. Puts hair on your chest.

1. Resources? I don't need no stinkin' resources!

 

[Meatbuster]

Well I've already tried seven times without luck.
At work now, so no screens.

Either I try to found Buddhism or go Worker+Bronze+Settler. Either way, Cyrus always gets to Bronze City Site faster or almost the same time as I do. Tell me, where am I going wrong?

Ok, actually I'm glad everyone is complaining about the heinous brutality of the start area. I thought I was losing my touch and must drop down to Prince. Played a recent offline Monarch game to prove that I can still win. :suicide:

First try: Shaka attacked, 5 turns to Iron Working and 18 turns to the border expansion that would've saved my life.
Second-sixth try: Cyrus and Rameses stole good city sites (I attempted to settle second city ON the copper all tries)
Seventh try: The only way I've gotten to "almost survive" is to settle the capital on the coast, second city to grab the starting resources the capital hasn't, then hop over the strait to found the third city on the iron. I have four cities now (one on the silk), other to grab the iron on the "other side".

I've gotten my ass kicked six times. Will I survive long enough to die again? Or will I just go back to the HOF and roll good starts?

 

[mdstjohn]

Greetings;

I was excited to restart my civ addiction after a couple of years in remission. Civ-I was a life changer for me, never to be the same. The WOTM3 seemed like a good idea at the time.

My first start was probably my best so far. I usually work for Tech's, not religion and that kept the peace for a while. Once I had scouted out the terrain and saw the AI's on the continent -and- saw the partially visible island I decided to go for the Island and the goodie hut. I built Vienne over on the SW tip from the starting location, researched fishing and sailing and landed a settler and a worker over on the island (ya a bit risky). What a nice surprise when I found Iron there. I then got busy building two cities on the island to go with the four that i had on the mainland. First was capital in place, second was on the coast and third was over by the copper and bannanas. The fourth was up by the horses, but it got cutoff midgame by the Egyptions and I made that a shipyard. I met my demise around 1700AD when I was fighting a Naval Battle with Ragnar and then Rameses decided now was the time to show how far ahead he was in Tech's. I quit in disgust not even saving.

So far ... in many failed attempts ... I have tried ...

Religious -- one lucky time most of the continent went buddist with me, most of the time having it just made for early invasions, tried all kinds of combinations of this as working religion is new for me.

Early War -- I will have to try this again after reading some of the accounts.

All in all it was frustrating and satisfying in that it has gotten me out of the same ole techniques and start learning to squeeze everything out of my cities.

Suggest we have a competition of the best of our second and later attempts, since a lot of us lost our first attempt (honestly).

Hope to see some more write-ups there is lots to learn from this one.

Good and Lucky Rolls for Everyone

 

[godotnut]

I want to elaborate on mdstjohn's idea about competing with out best second or subsequent attempts. Instead, let's make this one into a Gauntlet-like experience. Let's compete to see how well we can do on ANY ATTEMPT AS LONG AS WE DON'T RELOAD.

A lot of people are obviously replaying this one--in fact, a lot more than are going to finish. So why not take advantage of the opportunity and create our own competition right here based on the best finish regardless of how many times you restart, as long as you don't reload. All of the standard GOTM rules apply. The mechanics would be really simple: post your finish date and your finishing save (and preferably your log too) in this thread. And we'll just informally compare and see what happens. If someone has any idea on how to make this better, let us know.

Who's game?

 

[Meuh]

I am not sure we all got the same approach of second game attempt...Some aiming first or second city spot according to the ressource they discover in the previsous game are not playing the same way than those just trying a nother strategy (early war / different tech path...) but keeping the same logical city spot choice.

I would prefer a nother WOTM even If I will try to pursue my second attempt.

 

[Alraun]

As has already been pointed out, this game turned out to be very hard (possibly harder than any civ3/civ4 so far), much harder than I meant it to be...

I found the Emperor game a few months ago in Civ IV vanilla to be much more difficult.

 

[Alraun]

I decided before the game to go for a Diplomatic victory. I figured that due to the Aggressive AI, I might not have a ton of competition for this. Of course, I was going to going for diplomacy by the sword.

On the first turn, I built Bibracte in place and started building a worker and researching Animal Husbandry. I lost my Scout to a bear in 3700 BC, which was rather annoying.

After scouting, I decided there were basically three very good city spots within potential grabbing distance. The first one was the Horse/Clam/Corn/Whale spot to the north, the second was the Gem/Fish/Banana spot to the south (this was before I knew it had copper too) and the third was the Rice+uber Ivory city to the east. Persia grabbed the Gem/Copper city before I even built a settler, so my first settler headed north to the Whale/Corn spot and grabbed that. My third city filled the gap between my two cities and also shared the cows with my capital. Before long, that city coopted the cows for the rest of the game while my capital made do with the corn.

At this point, Persia had also grabbed the uber ivory spot, and there were only two potential city sites left to me, the single ivory site to the east and the coast to the south which also could grab bananas. Both were pretty heavy with jungle, but that was ok as I had planned to go for our special unit anyway and was already researching my way towards Iron Working. For my 4th city, I built next to the solo ivory, including the rice in my outer radius, although my culture for that never overtook Persia. Finally, I built along the southern coast for a 5th city.

My starting research path was as follows:

Animal Husbandry -> Agriculture -> Mining -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Bronze Working -> Iron Working

I had planned to go to Writing then Alphabet at this point, but after seeing that I had neither copper nor iron, I decided to research Horseback Riding so I could fight with Horse Archers. If I had thought about this some more, I would probably have not bothered and beelined for Construction to build Elephants. While researching Horseback Riding, I built half a dozen chariots for defense.

My research at this point was

Horseback Riding -> Archery(oops, forgot I needed this!) -> Writing

I was just about to start researching Alphabet when I found out that a couple of the AI already had it, so instead I picked up Metal Casting. Once I got metal casting, I was able to trade for Alphabet, Mathematics and all the little techs I missed. I then proceeded to start building Construtcion.

I failed to make good use of Horseback Riding, only building a few Horse Archers. My cities were instead mostly preoccupied building Stables right after I got Horseback Riding then Forges after I got Metal Working. Actually, I guess being able to build those Stables early wasn't so bad and going Horseback had the unintended consequence that I ended up not reasearching Alphabet, which probably helped me. Once I got to Construction in 95AD, I started pumping out War Elephants and Catapults as fast as I could and set my research towards getting Liberalism. By 635 AD, my War Elephant force was ready and I declared war on Egypt.