You mean you don't want the next WOTM to be at Beyond Sid difficulty?Pious_Pete said:
(If you don't know what beyond sid is, then read this old classic game writeup : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=66169 )
WOTM 03 First spoiler
- Thread starter Gyathaar
- Start date
(If you don't know what beyond sid is, then read this old classic game writeup : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=66169 )
Pious_Pete
Warlord
DynamicSpirit said:
Actually, I did have something further to add.
This is my 20th (or thereabouts) GOTM and my first loss.
I must say I did have pause for thought about submitting. But it was only a pause. I figured that it wouldn´t be in the spirit of GOTM not to submit - it was a serious attempt after all.
So I just went ahead and submitted it anyway. And you know what? It didn´t hurt a bit.
Having submitted it, I then set about trying my hand at a few retrys with a clear concience that I wasn´t cheating.
Pious_Pete
Warlord
DynamicSpirit said:
Exactly what happened to me. I was originally planning to settle a few squares south of the copper (can´t remember exactly where) to take a good spot which would have had the copper plus a couple of other nice resources.
I built my settler pretty quickly. Perhaps if I MMed a little better I could have improved on my time, but I don´t think what I did was unreasonable.
Cyrus beat me to the location. (This, of course, of itself is not unreasonable. Someone has to be first, and there is no law that says it has to be me).
I did consider settling directly on the copper, but I couldn´t have done this since it was too close to Cyrus´s city to be allowed.
The only thing I could try was to settle next to it, push back the cultural bounderies, and then chop the jungle. But the city was so resource poor, I don´t think I´d even built the monument before Cyrus attacked and captured it. (I may be wrong on that detail).
DynamicSpirit said:
Did anyone do this, and were they fine? They still have the problem of getting to IW, hooking it up, and hanging onto it while Cyrus was marauding.
spacemanmf
Stalwart
Familiar story for me.
Saw the copper but presumed (fatally) that iron would pop up in the big fat cross, or at least somewhere accessible. It didn't.
Cyrus was quick to the copper but didn't have it under full control and I was starting to win a culture battle for the square.
I'd got 3 cities set up and was not quite at the bottom of the scores. I was optimistically planning the locations for my 4th and 5th cities. I was doing OK.
Then...
Then Cyrus attacked, out of the blue. (Damn those aggressive AIs.)
Waves of immortals backed with axemen, first taking my second city (which was to the E grabbing ivory and rice), then pillaging EVERY DAMN SQUARE. My army of archers (I had built as many as I could in order to try to fool the AIs I was powerful - I didn't work) was next to useless against the Immortals (bonuses against archers and axemen!).
After years of looking miserably on as the land of my two remaining cities was stripped bare, Cyrus still wouldn't sign a peace treaty (not without my second city for compensation). I decided to settle another city once things had calmed down a bit (he suicided a few units on my hilled, walled defence), on the south coast near Cyrus, in order to try to snag the copper.
I then decided that, because of the time it would take to win the square culturally (I think Cyrus must have used a culture bomb or something cos his control of the square jumped up considerably, but was still falling), research Iron Working, chop down the jungle, hook up the copper, and build a half-decent army, I decided to hand over the newly formed city for peace.
I then went on a worker spam (5 for 2 cities!) then built a lot of cottages in order to try to catch up the ridiculous tech deficit (in the teens).
But my score is still way behind. I was even gifted a tech by the Vikings out of nowhere. Pity from an AI! That's something I've not seen before!
Anyway, the game itself made be very annoyed with Civ IV (hey, it's been a year and the interest is waning), but this thread has made me happy again.
I've submitted every Civ 4 GOTM and WOTM, win or loss, and this will be no different. But, my oh my, can we have some resources next time?
Saw the copper but presumed (fatally) that iron would pop up in the big fat cross, or at least somewhere accessible. It didn't.
Cyrus was quick to the copper but didn't have it under full control and I was starting to win a culture battle for the square.
I'd got 3 cities set up and was not quite at the bottom of the scores. I was optimistically planning the locations for my 4th and 5th cities. I was doing OK.
Then...
Then Cyrus attacked, out of the blue. (Damn those aggressive AIs.)
Waves of immortals backed with axemen, first taking my second city (which was to the E grabbing ivory and rice), then pillaging EVERY DAMN SQUARE. My army of archers (I had built as many as I could in order to try to fool the AIs I was powerful - I didn't work) was next to useless against the Immortals (bonuses against archers and axemen!).
After years of looking miserably on as the land of my two remaining cities was stripped bare, Cyrus still wouldn't sign a peace treaty (not without my second city for compensation). I decided to settle another city once things had calmed down a bit (he suicided a few units on my hilled, walled defence), on the south coast near Cyrus, in order to try to snag the copper.
I then decided that, because of the time it would take to win the square culturally (I think Cyrus must have used a culture bomb or something cos his control of the square jumped up considerably, but was still falling), research Iron Working, chop down the jungle, hook up the copper, and build a half-decent army, I decided to hand over the newly formed city for peace.
I then went on a worker spam (5 for 2 cities!) then built a lot of cottages in order to try to catch up the ridiculous tech deficit (in the teens).
But my score is still way behind. I was even gifted a tech by the Vikings out of nowhere. Pity from an AI! That's something I've not seen before!
Anyway, the game itself made be very annoyed with Civ IV (hey, it's been a year and the interest is waning), but this thread has made me happy again.
I've submitted every Civ 4 GOTM and WOTM, win or loss, and this will be no different. But, my oh my, can we have some resources next time?
Have tried it again twice, attempting to fine-tune the strategy and see what lessons can be learned ;^)
1. It's critical to make sure you have enough troops (and the right technologies) to discourage AI adventurism. Every game where I've tried to go with Warriors until the Copper is ready for action has resulted in being attacked. Sometimes Shaka marches an Axeman and a couple of Impi all the way across the continent because he heard there were easy pickings in the West. Sometimes Ramesses gets annoyed when his city revolts. And sometimes Cyrus never gets over having his Worker stolen. So I've started including Archery in my early research list: a couple of Archers in each city, even unpromoted, and the AIs go look for easier targets.
2. Sometimes it's necessary to build really bad cities just for A. culture, B. production and C. strategic resources. In my best result so far, over half my cities are within 3 squares of another city. One city directly north of the Gems (holding steady); one city three north of the southwest corner (Cyrus settled there but is slowly losing the culture clash); another city three squares north of the previously mentioned one, near the Cow; another city three squares north of that one near the Silk; and Memphis three squares east of the Stone city. Some of these cities spent their first millenia stuck at size 1, working the Copper square or the Stone square, for example. Humorously enough, the size 1 city Stone city built both Stonehenge and the Oracle and generated enough culture to flip its Egyptian neighbor (which was seven times larger).
3. It's important to beeline for important techs, but sometimes you just have to research things the AIs have no interest in. Then exchange those unique techs for important techs and cash. The cash can then finance the next offbeat technology.
4. Religion is dangerous, but having a holy city complete with shrine is very useful for paying the bills. Just try to make sure that your research city and your capital have access to as many neighboring religions as possible. That way, if you have to switch religions to make someone happy, you're not crippled for five turns. The corollary is, if at all possible, leverage your religion with the University of Sankore (Paper) and the Spiral Minaret (Divine Right). It appears that I may pull that off this time around, which means I have very good shot at keeping pace with the AIs technologically now.
The hardest one to learn was #2, city placement. I'm a perfectionist and usually insist that my cities be far enough apart to minimize overlap. That doesn't appear to work on a map this crowded. The Civ 4 equivalent of ICS may be ugly and it sure generates a lot of micromanagement, but those borders (and the strategic resources they control) make a huge difference. In addition, those lousy cities can just sit there and churn out silly things like Missionaries and Workers that you don't want to waste good cities on....
In any case, that's what I've learned so far from this particular WOTM ;^)
1. It's critical to make sure you have enough troops (and the right technologies) to discourage AI adventurism. Every game where I've tried to go with Warriors until the Copper is ready for action has resulted in being attacked. Sometimes Shaka marches an Axeman and a couple of Impi all the way across the continent because he heard there were easy pickings in the West. Sometimes Ramesses gets annoyed when his city revolts. And sometimes Cyrus never gets over having his Worker stolen. So I've started including Archery in my early research list: a couple of Archers in each city, even unpromoted, and the AIs go look for easier targets.
2. Sometimes it's necessary to build really bad cities just for A. culture, B. production and C. strategic resources. In my best result so far, over half my cities are within 3 squares of another city. One city directly north of the Gems (holding steady); one city three north of the southwest corner (Cyrus settled there but is slowly losing the culture clash); another city three squares north of the previously mentioned one, near the Cow; another city three squares north of that one near the Silk; and Memphis three squares east of the Stone city. Some of these cities spent their first millenia stuck at size 1, working the Copper square or the Stone square, for example. Humorously enough, the size 1 city Stone city built both Stonehenge and the Oracle and generated enough culture to flip its Egyptian neighbor (which was seven times larger).
3. It's important to beeline for important techs, but sometimes you just have to research things the AIs have no interest in. Then exchange those unique techs for important techs and cash. The cash can then finance the next offbeat technology.
4. Religion is dangerous, but having a holy city complete with shrine is very useful for paying the bills. Just try to make sure that your research city and your capital have access to as many neighboring religions as possible. That way, if you have to switch religions to make someone happy, you're not crippled for five turns. The corollary is, if at all possible, leverage your religion with the University of Sankore (Paper) and the Spiral Minaret (Divine Right). It appears that I may pull that off this time around, which means I have very good shot at keeping pace with the AIs technologically now.
The hardest one to learn was #2, city placement. I'm a perfectionist and usually insist that my cities be far enough apart to minimize overlap. That doesn't appear to work on a map this crowded. The Civ 4 equivalent of ICS may be ugly and it sure generates a lot of micromanagement, but those borders (and the strategic resources they control) make a huge difference. In addition, those lousy cities can just sit there and churn out silly things like Missionaries and Workers that you don't want to waste good cities on....
In any case, that's what I've learned so far from this particular WOTM ;^)
What a map! 
This is really an evil setting! Oh the horror when scouting for second and third city spots and finding nothing of use!
Well, not close anyway...
It is encouraging to hear that I am not alone in finding this map extremely difficult. Definitely one of the most challenging I have played.
But let's take it from the beginning. I had played a few practise games and decided to skip religion, instead building a worker first and researching AH to be able to (1) get to work the cows quickly and (2) hopefully find horses close. Well, no luck with the horses. My scout circled Bibracte in all directions but couldn't find any good city sites at all. Oh dear. I think I am going to need copper. So where is it?
After the worker I built a warrior while allowing Bibcrate to grow to size 2, and then started a settler. Research was AH (3490), Mining (3160), BW (2530). I had timed it nicely so that the settler was finished the turn after bronze working was researched. This was according to the plan that I had perfected in the practise games.
Unfortunately, no copper in the fat cross. But on the other hand it just popped up next to the gems, just within reach from the best second city spot I had found so far (2S from the gems)! That's where I want my second city!
Disaster! The spot is already taken by Cyrus! Grrrrr!
Time to rethink my options. Iron working is a long way off and I guess there won't be any iron close by anyway, given the way things have played out so far. Hmmm, Cyrus isn't cultural in Warlords... That means that I can still grab both the gems and the copper by settling one square from them. It is an awful spot now, surrounded by jungle and with overlap with Bibcrate. But once I get Iron Working and Calendar it will be a great spot having four resources. So, Vienne is founded in 2380 BC one N of the gems. First build is a monument. It is when I open the city screen for the first time that I realize that there is jungle on the copper too! Doh! This city will not grow past size 1 until I have Iron working! At least production was decent since I could let it work one of the mined hills of Bibcrate.
Meanwhile, Bibcrate finishes a second warrior and then builds Barracks. Stonehenge is started in 2140 BC. Vienne finishes its monument 3 turns later and also builds barracks.
Stonehenge is finished in 1660 BC! Wohoo! My first positive event so far!
My research does not seem to go very fast. I would have wanted to beeline for Alphabet at this stage, but first I need the wheel for hooking up the cows (2170) and Archery for defense (1870). Shaka already has an Impi at my border when I have only two warriors!
Next is Writing, learned in 1210. Now it is time for a critical decision. Should I research Alphabet and hope to trade for Iron Working, or should I research IW myself to make sure that I can mine the copper soon. I decide for Iron Working and learn it in 760 BC.
Bibcrate builds a settler in 1150 and a library in 985 BC. Otherwise both cities build several Archers. For my third city I was hoping on either the flood plains south of the egyptians or the elephant park to the east. Of course, both had been taken by Ramesses and Cyrus already. Instead I built Tolosa one S of the horses, getting lots of jungle but also an ivory resource. The year is 985 BC. Once I get the horses pastured Tolosa is actually able to grow to size 2 despite severe unhealth! First build is a barracks also here.
In 610 BC I have finally hooked up the copper and can start building axes and spears. Spearmen were top priority since both neighbors had mounted UUs. I have all three cities building military units now. Finished units gather near the Egyptian border.
Zoroaster (Great Prophet) is born in 415 BC. He can lightbulb...
(drumroll)
...Meditation!
As I will probably never found a religion I settle him in Bibcrate which actually is quite good mainly due to the 5 gpt.
Some 7-8 turns before I learn Alphabet at least two AIs already have it! Damn. This is not looking good. I am thinking that I might be left with nothing to trade with once I get Alphabet myself. But when I finally learn Alphabet in 220 BC I can at least make some nice tech trades and catch up a bit. In the following three turns I trade techs as much as I can, gaining Meditation, Polytheism, Fishing, Agriculture, Mathematics, Priesthood, Pottery, Sailing and Masonry. Not bad!
As soon as I have milked all I can out of Alphabet I declare war on Ramesses, in 160 BC. I have about 10 units that captures Memphis in 145 BC for the loss of three Gallic Warriors. This despite 60%+ odds already on the first one. I have to echo the observation by someone earlier in this thread that the odds calculation seems to be broken. I think I found on several occasions that walls were not considered.
Have to stop and heal and reinforce, and then my somewhat decimated stack advances on Thebes. In about 20 AD I stand at the gates of the Egyptian capital, which is defended by some archers, a spearman and a swordsman. 60% culture and walls. Hmm, this looks difficult. I hesitate slightly, pillaging a couple of resources instead. Then suddenly there is a Longbowman in Thebes! In 35 AD!!! (I still haven't got Construction...)
I am at 28/30 Xp for a great general but I see no other alternative than to declare peace. Ramesses gives me around 60 gold though. The major advantage of this war was that it gave me Memphis with all its cottages. This probably doubled my research rate.
I research Construction in 95 AD and will very soon go to war against Cyrus. But that will have to wait for the next spoiler.
Final thoughts
Despite the failed siege of Thebes, the situation is starting to look much brighter now. I gained some workers from Egypt and my jungle cities can soon grow. I have a fairly intact army that is on its way towards Cyrus and his Elephant city. Research is much better now, with Literature being researched in 6 turns.
To summarize, my builds up until the point where I declared on Ramesses in 160 BC were the following:
Bibcrate: worker, warrior, settler, warrior, barracks, stonehenge, archer, settler, library, archer, archer, worker, chariot, gallic warrior, axeman, gallic warrior, spearman, gallic warrior
Vienne: monument, barracks, archer, archer, archer, archer, chariot, gallic warrior, gallic warrior, gallic warrior
Tolosa: barracks, spearman, axeman, spearman
As you can see I have focused almost exclusively on military. My strategy and only hope is to take the fat cities and resources from Ramesses and Cyrus. How this goes will go into the next spoiler. Currently I am at 215 AD.
This is really an evil setting! Oh the horror when scouting for second and third city spots and finding nothing of use!
Well, not close anyway...
It is encouraging to hear that I am not alone in finding this map extremely difficult. Definitely one of the most challenging I have played.
But let's take it from the beginning. I had played a few practise games and decided to skip religion, instead building a worker first and researching AH to be able to (1) get to work the cows quickly and (2) hopefully find horses close. Well, no luck with the horses. My scout circled Bibracte in all directions but couldn't find any good city sites at all. Oh dear.
I think I am going to need copper. So where is it? After the worker I built a warrior while allowing Bibcrate to grow to size 2, and then started a settler. Research was AH (3490), Mining (3160), BW (2530). I had timed it nicely so that the settler was finished the turn after bronze working was researched. This was according to the plan that I had perfected in the practise games.
Unfortunately, no copper in the fat cross. But on the other hand it just popped up next to the gems, just within reach from the best second city spot I had found so far (2S from the gems)! That's where I want my second city!
Disaster! The spot is already taken by Cyrus! Grrrrr!
Time to rethink my options. Iron working is a long way off and I guess there won't be any iron close by anyway, given the way things have played out so far. Hmmm, Cyrus isn't cultural in Warlords... That means that I can still grab both the gems and the copper by settling one square from them. It is an awful spot now, surrounded by jungle and with overlap with Bibcrate. But once I get Iron Working and Calendar it will be a great spot having four resources. So, Vienne is founded in 2380 BC one N of the gems. First build is a monument. It is when I open the city screen for the first time that I realize that there is jungle on the copper too! Doh! This city will not grow past size 1 until I have Iron working! At least production was decent since I could let it work one of the mined hills of Bibcrate.
Meanwhile, Bibcrate finishes a second warrior and then builds Barracks. Stonehenge is started in 2140 BC. Vienne finishes its monument 3 turns later and also builds barracks.
Stonehenge is finished in 1660 BC! Wohoo! My first positive event so far!
My research does not seem to go very fast. I would have wanted to beeline for Alphabet at this stage, but first I need the wheel for hooking up the cows (2170) and Archery for defense (1870). Shaka already has an Impi at my border when I have only two warriors!
Next is Writing, learned in 1210. Now it is time for a critical decision. Should I research Alphabet and hope to trade for Iron Working, or should I research IW myself to make sure that I can mine the copper soon. I decide for Iron Working and learn it in 760 BC.
Bibcrate builds a settler in 1150 and a library in 985 BC. Otherwise both cities build several Archers. For my third city I was hoping on either the flood plains south of the egyptians or the elephant park to the east. Of course, both had been taken by Ramesses and Cyrus already.
Instead I built Tolosa one S of the horses, getting lots of jungle but also an ivory resource. The year is 985 BC. Once I get the horses pastured Tolosa is actually able to grow to size 2 despite severe unhealth! First build is a barracks also here.In 610 BC I have finally hooked up the copper and can start building axes and spears. Spearmen were top priority since both neighbors had mounted UUs. I have all three cities building military units now. Finished units gather near the Egyptian border.
Zoroaster (Great Prophet) is born in 415 BC. He can lightbulb...
(drumroll)
...Meditation!
As I will probably never found a religion I settle him in Bibcrate which actually is quite good mainly due to the 5 gpt.
Some 7-8 turns before I learn Alphabet at least two AIs already have it! Damn. This is not looking good. I am thinking that I might be left with nothing to trade with once I get Alphabet myself. But when I finally learn Alphabet in 220 BC I can at least make some nice tech trades and catch up a bit. In the following three turns I trade techs as much as I can, gaining Meditation, Polytheism, Fishing, Agriculture, Mathematics, Priesthood, Pottery, Sailing and Masonry. Not bad!
As soon as I have milked all I can out of Alphabet I declare war on Ramesses, in 160 BC. I have about 10 units that captures Memphis in 145 BC for the loss of three Gallic Warriors. This despite 60%+ odds already on the first one. I have to echo the observation by someone earlier in this thread that the odds calculation seems to be broken. I think I found on several occasions that walls were not considered.
Have to stop and heal and reinforce, and then my somewhat decimated stack advances on Thebes. In about 20 AD I stand at the gates of the Egyptian capital, which is defended by some archers, a spearman and a swordsman. 60% culture and walls. Hmm, this looks difficult. I hesitate slightly, pillaging a couple of resources instead. Then suddenly there is a Longbowman in Thebes! In 35 AD!!! (I still haven't got Construction...)
I am at 28/30 Xp for a great general but I see no other alternative than to declare peace. Ramesses gives me around 60 gold though. The major advantage of this war was that it gave me Memphis with all its cottages. This probably doubled my research rate.
I research Construction in 95 AD and will very soon go to war against Cyrus. But that will have to wait for the next spoiler.
Final thoughts
Despite the failed siege of Thebes, the situation is starting to look much brighter now. I gained some workers from Egypt and my jungle cities can soon grow. I have a fairly intact army that is on its way towards Cyrus and his Elephant city. Research is much better now, with Literature being researched in 6 turns.
To summarize, my builds up until the point where I declared on Ramesses in 160 BC were the following:
Bibcrate: worker, warrior, settler, warrior, barracks, stonehenge, archer, settler, library, archer, archer, worker, chariot, gallic warrior, axeman, gallic warrior, spearman, gallic warrior
Vienne: monument, barracks, archer, archer, archer, archer, chariot, gallic warrior, gallic warrior, gallic warrior
Tolosa: barracks, spearman, axeman, spearman
As you can see I have focused almost exclusively on military. My strategy and only hope is to take the fat cities and resources from Ramesses and Cyrus. How this goes will go into the next spoiler. Currently I am at 215 AD.
Greetings Again.
I posted earlier about my failed initial attempt, but said I would replay. In my original game I had gone Poly-AH-AG-Min-BW-IW, settling one NW of the copper. I had also built stonehenge, and then I had invaded Cyrus, and had Egypt switch religions and declare war on me...
For my second attempt I limited myself to repeating the initial steps, Poly-AH-Ag-Min-etc... but this time instead of making poly I spammed out settlers aggressively (almost recklessly, at one point using a worker to keep barbs from appearing). Again I settled one NW of the copper, then on the north silk and then my 3rd on the stone site. They all made monument first, and created a nice culture blockade of Ramses. Again my Copper city had no problems culturally holding the copper. I sent a 4th settler to the single ivory/horse site. After these 5 cities I spammed out workers, using every city to make them... even the jungle and stone cities. I probably got over-zealous, making 12 workers. I only put one warrior in each city to defend... no problem as everyone but Ragnar and Isabella converted to Hinduism. I also sent out 3-4 missionaries to Cyrus and Ramses to help cement them in my religion, as well as to spy for future conquests.
After worker spamming I then used my forests around my capital to chop-rush the pyramids, which I got since I had the stone by now. At this point I'm dead last in everything, and Ramses starts gifting techs to me!! So I went around asking for free techs, and lo, Ramses and Cyrus and Shaka Each eventually gave me a tech simply for the asking! I was at least 6-7 techs behind at this point. I'm not used to tech trading and stink at that part still, lol... Damn Ragnar spread metalworking and machinery to everyone before I could.
So at this point I had 7 crappy cities and was rapidly clearing jungle, but those cottages grow so slow... I was debating what to do next, and the compilation of most powerful Civs rating pops up... I was not even mentioned, of course, but... Ramses was rated as puny (#5)... So the next 30- turns or so I spent making eles/gallic warriors/catapults. By then I had beaurocracy, and turned my tech down to 0 for a dozen turns or so and upgraded about 8 gallic warriors to macemen with Guerilla II.. Essentially invulnerable units as long as I stick to the hills... I have about 9 catapults and 5 eles, keeping a couple behind for defense from fast moving mounted units... The rest I must keep quiet on... Except that I suspect there may be a valid first time winner on this game. Guerrilla upgrades on a rocky map makes for some interesting warfare. My second time around I scouted the same as my first game... only I took time trying unsuccessfully to found Judaism before getting BW (while still settling NW of the copper I allready knew was there... so certainly at an advantage. But copper/iron should have been more easily available to make this a viable but still very challenging map. Maybe the editor could post a new version with teh copper/irion moved around, but without us knowing where it's at... taht would still be a vey challenging but fun scenario.
One more question: when can we discuss the final spoilers?
Bigben34
I posted earlier about my failed initial attempt, but said I would replay. In my original game I had gone Poly-AH-AG-Min-BW-IW, settling one NW of the copper. I had also built stonehenge, and then I had invaded Cyrus, and had Egypt switch religions and declare war on me...
For my second attempt I limited myself to repeating the initial steps, Poly-AH-Ag-Min-etc... but this time instead of making poly I spammed out settlers aggressively (almost recklessly, at one point using a worker to keep barbs from appearing). Again I settled one NW of the copper, then on the north silk and then my 3rd on the stone site. They all made monument first, and created a nice culture blockade of Ramses. Again my Copper city had no problems culturally holding the copper. I sent a 4th settler to the single ivory/horse site. After these 5 cities I spammed out workers, using every city to make them... even the jungle and stone cities. I probably got over-zealous, making 12 workers. I only put one warrior in each city to defend... no problem as everyone but Ragnar and Isabella converted to Hinduism. I also sent out 3-4 missionaries to Cyrus and Ramses to help cement them in my religion, as well as to spy for future conquests.
After worker spamming I then used my forests around my capital to chop-rush the pyramids, which I got since I had the stone by now. At this point I'm dead last in everything, and Ramses starts gifting techs to me!! So I went around asking for free techs, and lo, Ramses and Cyrus and Shaka Each eventually gave me a tech simply for the asking! I was at least 6-7 techs behind at this point. I'm not used to tech trading and stink at that part still, lol... Damn Ragnar spread metalworking and machinery to everyone before I could.
So at this point I had 7 crappy cities and was rapidly clearing jungle, but those cottages grow so slow... I was debating what to do next, and the compilation of most powerful Civs rating pops up... I was not even mentioned, of course, but... Ramses was rated as puny (#5)... So the next 30- turns or so I spent making eles/gallic warriors/catapults. By then I had beaurocracy, and turned my tech down to 0 for a dozen turns or so and upgraded about 8 gallic warriors to macemen with Guerilla II.. Essentially invulnerable units as long as I stick to the hills... I have about 9 catapults and 5 eles, keeping a couple behind for defense from fast moving mounted units... The rest I must keep quiet on... Except that I suspect there may be a valid first time winner on this game. Guerrilla upgrades on a rocky map makes for some interesting warfare. My second time around I scouted the same as my first game... only I took time trying unsuccessfully to found Judaism before getting BW (while still settling NW of the copper I allready knew was there... so certainly at an advantage. But copper/iron should have been more easily available to make this a viable but still very challenging map. Maybe the editor could post a new version with teh copper/irion moved around, but without us knowing where it's at... taht would still be a vey challenging but fun scenario.
One more question: when can we discuss the final spoilers?
Bigben34
Would it be possible/worth doing to start a separate thread for discussion of 2nd attempts etc.? On the one hand, it can be interesting to see how people revise their strategies, but at the same time I've always imagined these spoiler threads as being primarily here to discuss peoples' actualentries into the GOTM (I sometimes in particular refer back to the threads to compare with the actual results when they come out), and this thread seems to getting drawn quite a bit away from that, and getting used more and more to report 2nd and subsequent attempts at the map. I know a separate thread might be difficult to organize in terms of spoiler requirements etc., but - well, it was just a thought 
Goodenuf
Warlord
spacemanmf said:
I had Ramesses gift 2 different techs to me along the way. A first for me as well.
Pious_Pete said:
ROFL!
I had to play durin' a snowstorm and had to walk uphill both ways through 2 feet o' snow just to play da game...
drkodos
Emperor
My game was extremely difficult, not very much fun, and I did not do well.
I was conquered by Shaka @ 1500 BC after he declared war out of the blue and bum rushed me with Impis. I was unable to secure any metal resources and had not developed HBR, so I was rather limited in response. Unfortunately (?!) the game locked up in the middle of the You Have Been Defeated screen, so it never recorded a replay, and thus I have not submitted and probably will not go back in to replay those last moves because I do not have a save immediately prior to this happening and the incentive to do so is not that high.
I was conquered by Shaka @ 1500 BC after he declared war out of the blue and bum rushed me with Impis. I was unable to secure any metal resources and had not developed HBR, so I was rather limited in response. Unfortunately (?!) the game locked up in the middle of the You Have Been Defeated screen, so it never recorded a replay, and thus I have not submitted and probably will not go back in to replay those last moves because I do not have a save immediately prior to this happening and the incentive to do so is not that high.
lroumen
Warlord
From memory my first (and submitted) attempt.
Adventurer (I don't feel at ease on immortal, hence...) going for cultural or diplomatic.
Sent Worker to mine the riverside hill southeast. Scout to the hill west. Nothing new spotted, settled in place. Scout a bit around and mine the hills whilst teching. I went for Buddhism and actually got it, then switched to Animal Husbandry and similar techs to grow and expand.
Spotted Stone to the North east and settled my 2nd city there. Spotted Horses north-west. 3rd city, missed the whale (bad scouting), but took the corn/wheat? and the silks(? bad bad memory). Boxed in pretty well, so going for a 4th city near the fish to the west and a 5th city to the south west.
Overall I was safe enough. My borders expanded quickly and my cultural influence grew so high that Cyrus lost his copper to me which didn't get him mad. I guess he only gets mad and goes to war with you when you take the city spot near the copper. Go figure.
Anyways, I was decently on my way and somewhere along the way used a scientist to get alphabet and trade some technologies around. Then I noticed that 3 civs were 6-7 tech ahead and 2 civs tailing me by 3 techs. Overall as I expected and I continued my way to tech and build for culture...... but my fun was rudely interrupted when one civ (should remain nameless I believe) decided to wage war on me and brought in warelephants where I only had archers for defense. I did win the first wave, but the next few turns more and more and more elephants came into my borders.... 500AD I rage-retired
Adventurer (I don't feel at ease on immortal, hence...) going for cultural or diplomatic.
Sent Worker to mine the riverside hill southeast. Scout to the hill west. Nothing new spotted, settled in place. Scout a bit around and mine the hills whilst teching. I went for Buddhism and actually got it, then switched to Animal Husbandry and similar techs to grow and expand.
Spotted Stone to the North east and settled my 2nd city there. Spotted Horses north-west. 3rd city, missed the whale (bad scouting), but took the corn/wheat? and the silks(? bad bad memory). Boxed in pretty well, so going for a 4th city near the fish to the west and a 5th city to the south west.
Overall I was safe enough. My borders expanded quickly and my cultural influence grew so high that Cyrus lost his copper to me which didn't get him mad. I guess he only gets mad and goes to war with you when you take the city spot near the copper. Go figure.
Anyways, I was decently on my way and somewhere along the way used a scientist to get alphabet and trade some technologies around. Then I noticed that 3 civs were 6-7 tech ahead and 2 civs tailing me by 3 techs. Overall as I expected and I continued my way to tech and build for culture...... but my fun was rudely interrupted when one civ (should remain nameless I believe) decided to wage war on me and brought in warelephants where I only had archers for defense. I did win the first wave, but the next few turns more and more and more elephants came into my borders.... 500AD I rage-retired
AU_Armageddon
Cenobyte
Was over this map, but took an interest in Godonut's challenge. On a 'normal' replay, I wouldn't feel right moving the starting city (personal scrub thing). As stated earlier, I felt this map would be a total walkthrough if you simply 'cheated' and moved south. In a challenge to do as well as possible however, played through doing just that. You can see the results for yourself:
Planted in the 'ideal' spot. Cost of only several turns. Fishing first while making a warrior to go steal Cyrus's worker (more than making up for the cost of moving):
Then Mining -> Bronze -> Iron working, building a 2nd warrior to keep Cyrus at bay during Stonehenge building for the monuments you will need (the only important wonder on this map), and a barracks in between 2 more workers. Mining the copper and gems and starting on the Gallic warpath AS IT SHOULD BE!!:
Take the well placed Barbarian city, then annihilate Persia first (2 gallic warriors this early was enough to start and take 1st cities; 5 for the capital), keeping 3 of his cities. All captured ones going barracks -> gallic warriors, except the occasional axeman/spearman/chariot for tactics.
Techwise following iron (till 500AD), went pottery -> writing -> maths -> construction -> alphabet -> code of laws & then turned off science.
Got construction following the genocide against persia and went all catapults and some war elephants (and very short war pushing back the Carthagians with a few cats and an elephant) as I massed all my forces for Shaka, ploughing straight through to take his capital:
Shaka was then more than ready to meet for fair terms of surrender:
Then positioned 3 relatively equal stacks for a decisive blitz against Egypt (pictured here) and a small fresh stack to reopen the 'negotiations' with Shaka:
To find myself at 500AD with the contintent nearly completely mine, with more than adequate forces to shortly remove Isabel and Hannibal together and take complete control (while simulatenously slaving courthouses across most of the continent amidst mass cottage building to restabilise the economy while preparing to invade Ragnar):
Conclusion: Interesting to me that the lost few turns of moving your settler that everyone finds so difficult to stomach can prove such a dramatic difference (strangely, in this case an actually quicker way to get your first warrior to the enemy lol than planting on the spot and building it - possibly food for thought). Of course, had their been iron 2 squares north and no copper south, moving south like this would have near guaranteed a loss so you can't read too much into it!
I guess the only conclusion is the phenomenal difference between playing real man's civ as GotM is intended, and cheating - kidding yourself turning a blind eye to preview glimpse or even a single reload.
Best 'value for money' GotM yet as I have greatly enjoyed all FOUR(!!) plays of this map and enjoying reading this thread more than any GotM one's yet! Thanks again Gyathaar
Planted in the 'ideal' spot. Cost of only several turns. Fishing first while making a warrior to go steal Cyrus's worker (more than making up for the cost of moving):
Then Mining -> Bronze -> Iron working, building a 2nd warrior to keep Cyrus at bay during Stonehenge building for the monuments you will need (the only important wonder on this map), and a barracks in between 2 more workers. Mining the copper and gems and starting on the Gallic warpath AS IT SHOULD BE!!:
Take the well placed Barbarian city, then annihilate Persia first (2 gallic warriors this early was enough to start and take 1st cities; 5 for the capital), keeping 3 of his cities. All captured ones going barracks -> gallic warriors, except the occasional axeman/spearman/chariot for tactics.
Techwise following iron (till 500AD), went pottery -> writing -> maths -> construction -> alphabet -> code of laws & then turned off science.
Got construction following the genocide against persia and went all catapults and some war elephants (and very short war pushing back the Carthagians with a few cats and an elephant) as I massed all my forces for Shaka, ploughing straight through to take his capital:
Shaka was then more than ready to meet for fair terms of surrender:
Then positioned 3 relatively equal stacks for a decisive blitz against Egypt (pictured here) and a small fresh stack to reopen the 'negotiations' with Shaka:
To find myself at 500AD with the contintent nearly completely mine, with more than adequate forces to shortly remove Isabel and Hannibal together and take complete control (while simulatenously slaving courthouses across most of the continent amidst mass cottage building to restabilise the economy while preparing to invade Ragnar):
Conclusion: Interesting to me that the lost few turns of moving your settler that everyone finds so difficult to stomach can prove such a dramatic difference (strangely, in this case an actually quicker way to get your first warrior to the enemy lol than planting on the spot and building it - possibly food for thought). Of course, had their been iron 2 squares north and no copper south, moving south like this would have near guaranteed a loss so you can't read too much into it!
I guess the only conclusion is the phenomenal difference between playing real man's civ as GotM is intended, and cheating - kidding yourself turning a blind eye to preview glimpse or even a single reload.
Best 'value for money' GotM yet as I have greatly enjoyed all FOUR(!!) plays of this map and enjoying reading this thread more than any GotM one's yet! Thanks again Gyathaar
AU_Armageddon
Cenobyte
(incidentally, picked up all of the wonders this way, even the great library which Eqypt kindly built a few turns before 'handing it over'. Only the Pyramids remain which Hannibal loses to Celtic control in a couple decades time).
drkodos
Emperor
AU_Armageddon said:
Moving the Settler is always a gambit at best because of the exact reasons you state at the end of this quoted graf.
If one is aware of the future location of strategic resources and can put the settler there, well then that is always helpful. But, given that the settler can move up to two tiles per turn, there could 25 different tiles the settler could end up at just by the end of that first turn. So, blindly picking the best tile on first turn could be a 25 to 1 gamble. Taking a 2nd turn to move the settler again increases possible settling tiles to a maximum of 81.
Of course, on this map, that number is significantly lower because of movement penalties in the hills, forests, jungles and coast line, but it is still about a 45 to 1 long shot that one would just happen to pick the best tile, sight unseen.
Thus, the results from any game with any map foresight/hindsight at all are completely worthless in terms of GotM/WotM analysis. A nice excerice to boost one's ego, no doubt, but of no real value when it comes to onsighting games.
It makes a dramatic difference is a tremendous understatement. Knowldege is power to those that know how to use it. Which precludes stating (but I'll state it anyway), someone with less skills still would not have fared as well as you did that restarted game.
Just sayin.
One of my favorite stories: The Man in the High Castle. As great a "What if?" about history as there ever was by one of the greatest authors of such stuff, the late, and magnificent Phiilip K. Dick.
Do any of you do the crossword, cryptoquip, or bridge problems in the newspaper? If so, I think you'll appreciate my comment that those scenarios are contrived against conventional wisdom and if you come to know the style of the composer, you'll make intuitive leaps that you could not make if you were going to just play it straight.
I feel GOTM/WOTM is much the same and as such, these guys have taught me to 1) NEVER accept the start position at face value and 2) If in doubt, consult Rule #1.
---
My initial plan was: Settle in place and do a Hinduism-gambit with the spice. As a rule, I don't like the rush to Buddhism because it's risky (especially at Monarch) and the only contigency plan is to move on to playing for Oracle. If this is the sum of your game, you're pretty much screwed. In this scenario, even if you miss Hinduism, you're probably going to get Masonry anyway for Dun and playing for Judaism isn't the worst contingency option. If you decide you've no shot after discovering your neighbors or your scouting reveals other opportunities, Mining->BW->IW isn't a horrible 3rd option. You're probably not going to out-tech anybody in this game.
My plan didn't survive my first scout moves.
Someone posted in the pre-game that they were going to settle in place unless they found features to the south that convinced them otherwise. I thought this prudent and I prefer settling on rivers over lakes since this can connect up resources before you get Wheel (had no idea when this would happen), so I moved the scout S and discovered the banana and move NE onto the hill out found the other spice.
Since I had no plans for researching Fishing or AH, I decided that settling 2 S of the start on the river was a decent option, so to be efficient with my settler moves I scouted SW with my settler and S to find more jungle. On turn 2, I moved the scout SW and SE and spotted the coast and saw that there was a ton of jungle so maybe Plan B wasn't going to be so good. However, this exposed the forested hill on the river and I got to thinking that moving to the isthmus and backfilling to my original start square (or conquering a barbarian city that popped up) might be my best expansionist policy; especially if there were good sea resources. So, resigned to having messed this thing up I boldly explored S & SE with my settler and found the fish, plains square and probable usable terrain E. On turn 3, scouting the forested hill SE exposed the Gems, so I opted to settle 1 square E on the coast.
Phew!
Now for the news...
I scouted S and SE and discovered Cyrus and that I could see the edge of his cultural borders. So screwed if I didn't play nice. I picked Fishing after all and started a monument first for the Charismatic happiness. After all, if I pissed of Cyrus in the early game, it was curtains anyway so I wanted to establish enough culture to capture my original start square and to discourage squatting nearby. My plan was Mining->BW->IW to clear our the jungle and gems. Then on to Wheel and Pottery to cottage up the river and hopefully I wouldn't be totally screwed on tech. After completing Fishing, I switched immediately to work boat and then back to Monument.
I found the other bad news; our neighbor to the north also had an early game mounted UU, so copper was going to be key to defend. In this regard, serendipity ruled and I was luckier than I deserved having settled next to the copper for which we were expected to fight Cyrus (and was going to be connected without Wheel). However, the twist of requiring IW to clear it (and incidently gain access to our UU) was not lost upon me. Clearly, CS-slingshot players were being set up to get crushed.
The rest of the early game played out pretty much as you'd expect. My delayed start was compensated somewhat by the fish. I built several early warriors so as to not appear weak (ha!) to my annoyed neighbors) and I pop rushed 2 workers once I got slavery since I had no techs to really improve terrain anyway. I decided to focus on defense until I got spearmen and gallic warriors and then take out Cyrus. This idea was reinforced by Cyrus settling my original start location. I suspect that this choice stunted his development a little in terms of maintenance and defense. Isabella made me convert to Judaism and Cyrus went for Hinduism so the stage was set for a showdown.
I sent a tiny stack up there with Dun/Barracks promotions to see if I could steal it and found it reasonably defended but beatable. However, barbs had build a coastal city right there so I XPed on it and razed it since I felt could not hold up to Cyrus's culture. Moreover, I was researching Sailing so I could take my settler to the nearby iron since Cyrus took my intended location. I ran a scout and settler over to the island, got the goodie hut for a free warrior (Yay! defender) and build Vienne on the hut's location. I found Ragnar on the island, recognized he had built his 3rd city there with only 1 archer and I had 2 promoted GW right on the coast. Long story short, I out-viking-ed the vikings and obliterated him in 125BC with amphibious assaults and *superior* naval power (I had a trireme, too!).
Ragnar had better lands than I (and developed), so in essence I swapped my start spot for his (almost decided to build a palace there - lol) and a religion that Caesar had adopted, so I think I have an opportunity to abandon the main continent and possibly go for a diplomatic victory, but that Egyptian city on MY new island might taste my might.
I'm bottom-feeding, but there's a lot of play left to go. I'm going to be the 2nd player to CoL and I will have a Great Scientist ready to go to pop for Philosophy (or Academy if I'm wrong) so I should have tech parity or a slight advantage for awhile.
I feel GOTM/WOTM is much the same and as such, these guys have taught me to 1) NEVER accept the start position at face value and 2) If in doubt, consult Rule #1.
---
My initial plan was: Settle in place and do a Hinduism-gambit with the spice. As a rule, I don't like the rush to Buddhism because it's risky (especially at Monarch) and the only contigency plan is to move on to playing for Oracle. If this is the sum of your game, you're pretty much screwed. In this scenario, even if you miss Hinduism, you're probably going to get Masonry anyway for Dun and playing for Judaism isn't the worst contingency option. If you decide you've no shot after discovering your neighbors or your scouting reveals other opportunities, Mining->BW->IW isn't a horrible 3rd option. You're probably not going to out-tech anybody in this game.
My plan didn't survive my first scout moves.
Someone posted in the pre-game that they were going to settle in place unless they found features to the south that convinced them otherwise. I thought this prudent and I prefer settling on rivers over lakes since this can connect up resources before you get Wheel (had no idea when this would happen), so I moved the scout S and discovered the banana and move NE onto the hill out found the other spice.
Since I had no plans for researching Fishing or AH, I decided that settling 2 S of the start on the river was a decent option, so to be efficient with my settler moves I scouted SW with my settler and S to find more jungle. On turn 2, I moved the scout SW and SE and spotted the coast and saw that there was a ton of jungle so maybe Plan B wasn't going to be so good. However, this exposed the forested hill on the river and I got to thinking that moving to the isthmus and backfilling to my original start square (or conquering a barbarian city that popped up) might be my best expansionist policy; especially if there were good sea resources. So, resigned to having messed this thing up I boldly explored S & SE with my settler and found the fish, plains square and probable usable terrain E. On turn 3, scouting the forested hill SE exposed the Gems, so I opted to settle 1 square E on the coast.
Phew!
Now for the news...
I scouted S and SE and discovered Cyrus and that I could see the edge of his cultural borders. So screwed if I didn't play nice. I picked Fishing after all and started a monument first for the Charismatic happiness. After all, if I pissed of Cyrus in the early game, it was curtains anyway so I wanted to establish enough culture to capture my original start square and to discourage squatting nearby. My plan was Mining->BW->IW to clear our the jungle and gems. Then on to Wheel and Pottery to cottage up the river and hopefully I wouldn't be totally screwed on tech. After completing Fishing, I switched immediately to work boat and then back to Monument.
I found the other bad news; our neighbor to the north also had an early game mounted UU, so copper was going to be key to defend. In this regard, serendipity ruled and I was luckier than I deserved having settled next to the copper for which we were expected to fight Cyrus (and was going to be connected without Wheel). However, the twist of requiring IW to clear it (and incidently gain access to our UU) was not lost upon me. Clearly, CS-slingshot players were being set up to get crushed.
Spoiler :
The rest of the early game played out pretty much as you'd expect. My delayed start was compensated somewhat by the fish. I built several early warriors so as to not appear weak (ha!) to my annoyed neighbors) and I pop rushed 2 workers once I got slavery since I had no techs to really improve terrain anyway. I decided to focus on defense until I got spearmen and gallic warriors and then take out Cyrus. This idea was reinforced by Cyrus settling my original start location. I suspect that this choice stunted his development a little in terms of maintenance and defense. Isabella made me convert to Judaism and Cyrus went for Hinduism so the stage was set for a showdown.
I sent a tiny stack up there with Dun/Barracks promotions to see if I could steal it and found it reasonably defended but beatable. However, barbs had build a coastal city right there so I XPed on it and razed it since I felt could not hold up to Cyrus's culture. Moreover, I was researching Sailing so I could take my settler to the nearby iron since Cyrus took my intended location. I ran a scout and settler over to the island, got the goodie hut for a free warrior (Yay! defender) and build Vienne on the hut's location. I found Ragnar on the island, recognized he had built his 3rd city there with only 1 archer and I had 2 promoted GW right on the coast. Long story short, I out-viking-ed the vikings and obliterated him in 125BC with amphibious assaults and *superior* naval power (I had a trireme, too!).
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Ragnar had better lands than I (and developed), so in essence I swapped my start spot for his (almost decided to build a palace there - lol) and a religion that Caesar had adopted, so I think I have an opportunity to abandon the main continent and possibly go for a diplomatic victory, but that Egyptian city on MY new island might taste my might.
I'm bottom-feeding, but there's a lot of play left to go. I'm going to be the 2nd player to CoL and I will have a Great Scientist ready to go to pop for Philosophy (or Academy if I'm wrong) so I should have tech parity or a slight advantage for awhile.
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
A few thoughts after finishing the thread.
1) Like everyone else, I don't feel that bad about my game after reading the other experiences. I'm getting crushed, but I have prospects.
2) I'd be interested how settling S of the spice goes if anyone tried that without a reload. After the pre-game discussion, I felt that would be viable and in fact during the screenshot games, I successfully tried the hindusim gambit on both sides of the spice.
I stewed over the decision to settle 2S vs look around some more maybe a day and a half before opting to gamble for the coast.
3) I guess I can see how a non-traditional start strains credibility but it's still a little unfair to make a blanket assertion regarding the ethics of other players. I play competitive bridge and I feel the concepts of "Active Ethics" apply in all endeavors.
In defense of that poster, I posted my spoiler his after so I know he didn't single me out I'm a little embarrassed at the implication, but I think my past radical history speaks for itself <grin>. I'm not exactly crushing the game like the 'simulated cheater', either - lol.
4) I disagree with the common theory that delayed starts are 'bad'. If you are rushing for a religion or a wonder, every turn absolutely counts, but sometimes the start isn't as attractive as it appears. I explained some of my thoughts on this start in my spoiler, but I'll elaborate on some other thoughts.
---
You have to focus on some field of research at higher levels of play. You simply can't research everything first. This start provides access to corn (Ag), Cow (AH), Spice (Cal), and Lake (Fish). None of these are on a critical path to your UU, religion, or even military (unless horses pop up). It's clear you need Mining and you maybe have room for one other tech with which to develop resources. Just getting the extra 1 commerce from an undeveloped spice isn't a compelling reasons to stay and I pretty much wrote off using the cow with my plan. I could have irrigated it and the corn with Ag and that was pretty much the argument for settling in place. Running into the jungle was possibly ill-advised, but sometimes you just have to play the game.
I don't feel that multiples of the same resource in your start space are all that useful in the early game. In this start, you get 3 spices, but you can't work them until Calendar (which I almost never research first or early) and if you're whipping for production, you're never really getting a large enough population to use all those special resources anyway. It's good enough to work them outside of the fat cross and maybe just cottage up the ones in your fat cross.
Along the same lines, I think that getting more diversity in resource in your fat cross is more valuable because you can consider each smiley or red cross a building improvement in addition to its production.
Your initial starting space is pretty much guaranteed to be powerful and diverse, but never as good as a specialized city except by virtue of being founded first and more developed. Often, a 2nd and 4rd city will be much more developed than your first. A lot of players move off their start square by 1 space and settle; not losing a turn but offsetting their fat cross in a way that perhaps a 2nd city is better than it would have been and the initial city is a little more geared towards their intended goals. You also have the side-benefit of skewing the strength of your opponents by strangling one with your placement and strengthening the other by giving him room. The weaker one can then often be picked off and absorbed so that you can tackle the other neighbor. This did not work for me *at all* in this scenario, however.
I also don't think it's as much of a crapshoot as another poster suggested when you have a scout (2 moves) and a settler (2 moves) both able to get on top of hills and look around. You *never* have barbs the first few turns, so you can explore in safety. You just have to weigh the consequences of delaying.
---
I'm kind of interested in the other deviant start I saw regarding the cat's "suggestion". When I'm done, I'm going to look at the start position and see if I can see any merits to even making that move by virtue of reason and weigh whether that would have any better success.
1) Like everyone else, I don't feel that bad about my game after reading the other experiences. I'm getting crushed, but I have prospects.
2) I'd be interested how settling S of the spice goes if anyone tried that without a reload. After the pre-game discussion, I felt that would be viable and in fact during the screenshot games, I successfully tried the hindusim gambit on both sides of the spice.
I stewed over the decision to settle 2S vs look around some more maybe a day and a half before opting to gamble for the coast.
3) I guess I can see how a non-traditional start strains credibility but it's still a little unfair to make a blanket assertion regarding the ethics of other players. I play competitive bridge and I feel the concepts of "Active Ethics" apply in all endeavors.
In defense of that poster, I posted my spoiler his after so I know he didn't single me out
I'm a little embarrassed at the implication, but I think my past radical history speaks for itself <grin>. I'm not exactly crushing the game like the 'simulated cheater', either - lol.4) I disagree with the common theory that delayed starts are 'bad'. If you are rushing for a religion or a wonder, every turn absolutely counts, but sometimes the start isn't as attractive as it appears. I explained some of my thoughts on this start in my spoiler, but I'll elaborate on some other thoughts.
---
You have to focus on some field of research at higher levels of play. You simply can't research everything first. This start provides access to corn (Ag), Cow (AH), Spice (Cal), and Lake (Fish). None of these are on a critical path to your UU, religion, or even military (unless horses pop up). It's clear you need Mining and you maybe have room for one other tech with which to develop resources. Just getting the extra 1 commerce from an undeveloped spice isn't a compelling reasons to stay and I pretty much wrote off using the cow with my plan. I could have irrigated it and the corn with Ag and that was pretty much the argument for settling in place. Running into the jungle was possibly ill-advised, but sometimes you just have to play the game.
I don't feel that multiples of the same resource in your start space are all that useful in the early game. In this start, you get 3 spices, but you can't work them until Calendar (which I almost never research first or early) and if you're whipping for production, you're never really getting a large enough population to use all those special resources anyway. It's good enough to work them outside of the fat cross and maybe just cottage up the ones in your fat cross.
Along the same lines, I think that getting more diversity in resource in your fat cross is more valuable because you can consider each smiley or red cross a building improvement in addition to its production.
Your initial starting space is pretty much guaranteed to be powerful and diverse, but never as good as a specialized city except by virtue of being founded first and more developed. Often, a 2nd and 4rd city will be much more developed than your first. A lot of players move off their start square by 1 space and settle; not losing a turn but offsetting their fat cross in a way that perhaps a 2nd city is better than it would have been and the initial city is a little more geared towards their intended goals. You also have the side-benefit of skewing the strength of your opponents by strangling one with your placement and strengthening the other by giving him room. The weaker one can then often be picked off and absorbed so that you can tackle the other neighbor. This did not work for me *at all* in this scenario, however.
I also don't think it's as much of a crapshoot as another poster suggested when you have a scout (2 moves) and a settler (2 moves) both able to get on top of hills and look around. You *never* have barbs the first few turns, so you can explore in safety. You just have to weigh the consequences of delaying.
---
I'm kind of interested in the other deviant start I saw regarding the cat's "suggestion". When I'm done, I'm going to look at the start position and see if I can see any merits to even making that move by virtue of reason and weigh whether that would have any better success.
I too suffered in this game. I took the gambit with the spices for the foudning of buddhism. failed by 1 turn (grrr) after that I made the second mistake of trying for Hinduism. (beated by 5 turns or so)
after that I decided: oh well better get some military happening so went for bronze working.
I had already decided that the fish and bananas looked good so decided to send a settler down there to grab it, only to find the persians there. (bah)
Dont remember what I did next but I do remember taking one of persias workers thinking that I would be safe...
big mistake
3 immortals rolled up taking my capital.
GAME OVER......
I did a restart playing the easiest save and beelined a settler for the bronze. That still failed.
this is a super hard map.
Nic.
after that I decided: oh well better get some military happening so went for bronze working.
I had already decided that the fish and bananas looked good so decided to send a settler down there to grab it, only to find the persians there. (bah)
Dont remember what I did next but I do remember taking one of persias workers thinking that I would be safe...
big mistake
3 immortals rolled up taking my capital.
GAME OVER......
I did a restart playing the easiest save and beelined a settler for the bronze. That still failed.
this is a super hard map.
Nic.
Lejonmanen
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2006
- Messages
- 8
I was very comforted by everyone who wrote this was a hard game. It seemed I always failed with what I tried to do in my game. (admittedly, I didn't plan very far ahead)
Anyway, I won't submit my game since I got so put off by my many mistakes that I quit without saving
I'm looking forward to the next, presumably easier game!
Anyway, I won't submit my game since I got so put off by my many mistakes that I quit without saving
I'm looking forward to the next, presumably easier game!
A'AbarachAmadan
Deity
Challenger, Goal: Fastest Diplomacy Victory (which may turn into just surviving)
Pre-game assumptions: I never like settling on a grass/hill, though this one would be OK. As I said in the pre-game discussion, I really like 2S for the first city; or 2N since all the forest is N, not S; figured after moving my scout I’d figure out where to move. Aggressive and abundant AI means trying to make nice as quickly as possible and keep them nice until a time of my choosing.
Initial start: Move Scout 2SW and pause as I see likely ocean both W and S. My gut tells me I should go 2N or 2S like I originally planned. Since I can’t decide, I go W with the thought, “hey, if I can build on the ocean and get Great Lighthouse and Temple of Artimis, then my capital would be a science mecca.” (I would soon be disappointed as I watched Egypt build everything and then some.) On the second move my scout went NW to show the ocean, so I settle 3W of the original start. Soon thereafter I expanded and popped the goody hut to yield….a frakkin’ scout. At first I thought this was awesome, but it only took a few turns to realize it was worthlessly on a little island. My first scout looped around the continent going south, so generally found others in that order. The bad thing about that was when I found my second city 1NE of the cows, I hadn’t even seen the stone yet, so it ended up 2NE of my city, eventually to fall nicely in Egyptian territory. My third city went to the river to put the gems in its crosshairs going after a library resulting in expanding before the Persians got the gems with their city 2S of the gems. I then built a fourth city out on the island and later on a fifth one on the southern coast. Egypt was annoying as just as I was about to get a settler built and move north, they would settle where I wanted to go! (I was surprised to see so many folks having problems getting the copper to the south when settling in place, especially since I didn’t move that way until my third city and still got it. I think the best settle location would have been my initial gut instinct of 2S. Oh, well!)
Initial research: Fishing, Agriculture, Mining, Wheel, Animal Husbandry, Sailing, Writing, Alphabet, TradeFest
Initial construction in Capital: Start Worker, Workboat, Finish Worker, Start warrior until size 2 (lost all 7 production that it had accumulated), then switch to Settlers
Trading: even though I only had 1 each of the early resources, I always traded them with neighbors; this didn’t help my happiness/health, but it made them much more friendly; I even gave the Vikings copper for free, just to make them more friendly (this was when I was thinking I could just take over my continent to vote me in for the UN)
Religion: To keep the masses happy, none declared, though I have 3 different ones in my territory. I cringe every time they ask me to declare one.
Wonders: Great Library and that is all so far; I didn’t even have Poly or Med when the Oracle was built; Egypt is the Wonder Master
Bad move: I only have 5 workers, thinking I wouldn’t need that many as it will be hard to expand and I could just capture them when I start warring. Now I’m working lots of unimproved squares as this is a hard area to upgrade. (I was impressed to see some folks do early worker steals; I stopped doing that after we switched to Warlords; guess I need to rethink it again.)
Thinking about war: Watching Egypt I know I must take them out, so I start building Gallic Warriors and send my two scouts in for a look. After I have six of them I start thinking about how I would want to start proceeding tactically, only to watch Egypt get feudalism and upgrade to Longbowmen across the spectrum (which is something the AI often didn’t used to do, so previously this wouldn’t have been as big a deal, but now they seem to upgrade much better). Also, on this level I’m not used to being behind in tech after Alphabet, so I wasted some time building granaries with all the resources nearby, which should have been spent building military; had I skipped that, I could have hurt them critically before they got to Longbows. Seeing Axemen and War Elephants roaming around also dissuade me until the future, if ever, as they are the research masters right now. My goal now is to hopefully get to Macemen first and get others to join me in a routing of the Egyptians. Alternatively I may go after Persia, but that doesn’t help me stop Egypt from running away from the rest of us. Too bad I can’t just switch to Egypt’s religion and end up being on the winning team.
Pre-game assumptions: I never like settling on a grass/hill, though this one would be OK. As I said in the pre-game discussion, I really like 2S for the first city; or 2N since all the forest is N, not S; figured after moving my scout I’d figure out where to move. Aggressive and abundant AI means trying to make nice as quickly as possible and keep them nice until a time of my choosing.
Initial start: Move Scout 2SW and pause as I see likely ocean both W and S. My gut tells me I should go 2N or 2S like I originally planned. Since I can’t decide, I go W with the thought, “hey, if I can build on the ocean and get Great Lighthouse and Temple of Artimis, then my capital would be a science mecca.” (I would soon be disappointed as I watched Egypt build everything and then some.) On the second move my scout went NW to show the ocean, so I settle 3W of the original start. Soon thereafter I expanded and popped the goody hut to yield….a frakkin’ scout. At first I thought this was awesome, but it only took a few turns to realize it was worthlessly on a little island. My first scout looped around the continent going south, so generally found others in that order. The bad thing about that was when I found my second city 1NE of the cows, I hadn’t even seen the stone yet, so it ended up 2NE of my city, eventually to fall nicely in Egyptian territory. My third city went to the river to put the gems in its crosshairs going after a library resulting in expanding before the Persians got the gems with their city 2S of the gems. I then built a fourth city out on the island and later on a fifth one on the southern coast. Egypt was annoying as just as I was about to get a settler built and move north, they would settle where I wanted to go! (I was surprised to see so many folks having problems getting the copper to the south when settling in place, especially since I didn’t move that way until my third city and still got it. I think the best settle location would have been my initial gut instinct of 2S. Oh, well!)
Initial research: Fishing, Agriculture, Mining, Wheel, Animal Husbandry, Sailing, Writing, Alphabet, TradeFest
Initial construction in Capital: Start Worker, Workboat, Finish Worker, Start warrior until size 2 (lost all 7 production that it had accumulated), then switch to Settlers
Trading: even though I only had 1 each of the early resources, I always traded them with neighbors; this didn’t help my happiness/health, but it made them much more friendly; I even gave the Vikings copper for free, just to make them more friendly (this was when I was thinking I could just take over my continent to vote me in for the UN)
Religion: To keep the masses happy, none declared, though I have 3 different ones in my territory. I cringe every time they ask me to declare one.
Wonders: Great Library and that is all so far; I didn’t even have Poly or Med when the Oracle was built; Egypt is the Wonder Master
Bad move: I only have 5 workers, thinking I wouldn’t need that many as it will be hard to expand and I could just capture them when I start warring. Now I’m working lots of unimproved squares as this is a hard area to upgrade. (I was impressed to see some folks do early worker steals; I stopped doing that after we switched to Warlords; guess I need to rethink it again.)
Thinking about war: Watching Egypt I know I must take them out, so I start building Gallic Warriors and send my two scouts in for a look. After I have six of them I start thinking about how I would want to start proceeding tactically, only to watch Egypt get feudalism and upgrade to Longbowmen across the spectrum (which is something the AI often didn’t used to do, so previously this wouldn’t have been as big a deal, but now they seem to upgrade much better). Also, on this level I’m not used to being behind in tech after Alphabet, so I wasted some time building granaries with all the resources nearby, which should have been spent building military; had I skipped that, I could have hurt them critically before they got to Longbows. Seeing Axemen and War Elephants roaming around also dissuade me until the future, if ever, as they are the research masters right now. My goal now is to hopefully get to Macemen first and get others to join me in a routing of the Egyptians. Alternatively I may go after Persia, but that doesn’t help me stop Egypt from running away from the rest of us. Too bad I can’t just switch to Egypt’s religion and end up being on the winning team.
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