WOTM 06 - First Spoiler

[RobertTheBruce]

What is your strategy when you get the Pryamids ... do you adopt Representation or Police State?

Also, when a religion spread to you did you convert or stay nondenominational?

I'm planning a military victory. I want to switch to Police State for the production bonus and WW relief. Representation is a good choice on this map for a space race or diplomatic victory. There are a lot of cities with significant extra food to run specialists. I'm just planning on whipping almost every city for extra production.

I stayed nondenominational until Caesar asked me to switch (around 100BC IIRC). I wanted to keep him happy and trading until I was ready to fight. I was planning to adopt Confucianism after Theology for Theocracy. It had spread into my capital and main production city. (I was able to use Hereditary Rule and Calendar resources to increase the happiness cap in my cities) Buddhism didn't spread to me until later but it wasn't a serious option. Isabella was too backward to bother pleasing so it was a choice of 3 happy neighbours vs 1.

 

[slowrider]

Settled in place after scouting the pigs. Lots of high food/low production sites on the island so it would be a whipping game. I’m glad Gyathaar made it so obvious because I always plan to whip but I rarely do. This time it looks mandatory. I hope to gain some experience and break through my reluctance.

Early Cities:

Spoiler :

I thought about the early cities for a long time … was tempted by the far east location with fish, clams and jungle gems but finally decided to stay closer to home and away from the jungle for city two and three. Second city, Uppsala was founded off-island south of the capital with access to fish and could share the pigs in Nidaros. In hindsight it wasn’t a great decision but it worked out OK in the early going. Third city, Haithaba was founded between the mountains with access to clams but had jungle-locked pigs and gems. Didn’t know at the time it would have two iron deposits so that location turned out to be a good one.

Cities four and five came much later as I focused on whipping infrastructure in the first three. I probably overbuilt and should have founded Birka and Bjorgvin much sooner. I also made the mistake of whipping my cities down too small. With the enormous amount of food I should have whipped after “banking” one or two unhappy citizens so I could keep more people working the gold.

City four, Birka was founded on the far east (fish, clams, gems) location and finally just before the 500AD cutoff I founded Bjorgvin in the interior with access to silk, horses and Haithaba’s pigs. It also had access to three grassland hills and fresh water. This would be my military production city and would eventually become a powerhouse spammed with post Chemistry/State Property workshops.

Techs:

Spoiler :

3670BC – Mining
3040BC – BW (to adopt Slavery which I actually used this time)
2560 BC – Sailing (for galley to settle second city)
2200 BC – Wheel
1870 BC – Pottery (for granaries I probably didn’t need and cottages which ended up being few)
1540 BC – AH
1390 BC – Mysticism (for monuments to expand early cities)
955 BC – IW (finally a really useful tech)
730 BC - Writing
505 BC - Alphabet (would now tech/trade to HR)
490 BC - Trades: Masonry, Poly, Agriculture, Pristhood
250 BC - Monarchy (Hereditary Rule)
220 BC - Math
55 BC - Currency
40 BC - Trades: Meditation, Monotheism, Archery, CoL
10 BC - Lightbulbed Philosophy with at GS
65 AD - Metal Working and traded for Calendar
140 AD – Civil Service (Bureaucracy)
305AD – Machinery and traded for Drama, Construction and Literature
470 AD - Feudalism

Etc:

Spoiler :

Conquest/Domination victory - Decided not to attack Russia with an early rush and focused on teching to macemen/cats to take on Haya first who had built the Great Lighthouse. I could avoid Corporation so it would be a valuable wonder throughout the game. Haya also had the kind of land I wanted (food and grasslands) for two or three good workshop/military cities. Roosevelt with the Pyramids would be next.

Religion - Decided not to adopt any religion (for the first time) and this really helped in the relations department. Izzy was the only one I didn’t get along with but I was in good company.

Economy/Tech – My starting cities were close and had good gold production. I explored early and made a lot of contacts and without religion my relations were all good making for favorable trades. With Hereditary Rule I blew my early cities up to 12-15 population with cheap warriors and had a pretty strong tech pace.

Early Exploration - This paid off as I easily circumnavagated first. For a long time I was much better connected than any other civ and with good relation via no religion it felt like I was getting better trades than usual.

Around 500 AD I had CS and Machinery all to myself and will keep it that way for as long as possible. I’m building macemen, catapults and galleys to pay Haya a visit.

 

[cabert]

I'm not going to submit the game, since I quit in disgust after making one too many moves.

However, without playing the challenger class, I had a hard time catching up with the monarch AIs .
Probably my 2 workers weren't enough to remove all that jungle .
I have missed all the wonders, including the colossus although I was running for it.
This never happened to me , one of those fast techers must have had a GE to rush it (and I didn't have copper!).

I didn't quit at this point, although I felt bad when I saw I was losing the liberalism race too. Only quit later when I made one of those "goto mistakes" : sent my ships to unload troops without care in the fog, and they attacked (!it was a goto order ) stronger enemy ships on the way= 1 army lost . This was too much for me. Power button.

 

[Conquistador 63]

After GOTM14, we have another sea-based map, which I’m growing fonder of. I believe that this game is being harder than the other one, despite being on Monarch. Hopefully, after clearing up all the jungle, things will go smoother. Luckily, no global warming involved in the game’s model, or else Greenpeace would be on my heels.

I settled in place and beelined for BW and Alpha, after noticing that I was able to contact most of the AI early on. In fact, when Alpha came online in 865BC, I had 4 contacts, and the remaining ones showed up not later than 355BC. Btw, I circumnavigated globe in 955BC. Nevertheless, until 500AD, Roosevelt was still the tech leader. Luckily, the WBTYABTA issue hasn’t arisen yet, but I'm worried that it can happen soon. Meanwhile, I've been dead last in score. I hope I can make this change soon.

Tech path

Spoiler :

Turn 11 (3670 BC) Mining
Turn 29 (3130 BC) Bronze Working
Turn 47 (2590 BC) Animal Husbandry
Turn 65 (2050 BC) Writing
Turn 75 (1750 BC) The Wheel
Turn 87 (1390 BC) Sailing
Turn 109 (865 BC) Alphabet
Turn 110 (850 BC) (trades) Mysticism, Agriculture, Pottery
Turn 117 (745 BC) (trades) Meditation, Polytheism, Masonry
Turn 118 (730 BC) (trades) Priesthood, Monotheism, Archery
Turn 121 (685 BC) Iron Working
Turn 136 (460 BC) Mathematics
Turn 152 (220 BC) (trade) Calendar
Turn 153 (205 BC) Construction
Turn 154 (190 BC) (trade) Literature
Turn 167 (5 AD) Metal Casting
Currency (trade)
Turn 176 (140 AD) (trade) Code of Laws
Turn 181 (215 AD) Machinery
Turn 191 (365 AD) (trade) Monarchy
Turn 194 (410 AD) Civil Service
Music, Theology, Horseback Riding (trades)

Additional city placement

Spoiler :

Turn 75 (1750 BC) Uppsala founded (NE of gems)
Turn 105 (925 BC) Haithabu founded (E of pigs, to work horses)
Turn 148 (280 BC) Birka founded (N of gems, +2 seafood)
Turn 168 (20 AD) Bjørgvin founded (coast between 2 silks)
By 500AD, I have no access to iron. My own fault, I took too long to research IW, and a couple turns after I did it, Augustus settled the southern island, denying me access to both sources.

Wonders

Spoiler :

I don’t remember a game where I haven’t even tried to get a wonder until 500AD, as was the case here. Without access to any strategic resource, they all seemed too risky to me. I wish HOF mod would keep track of them getting built elsewhere, so this post could be more accurate, but that’s not the case. Anyway, Augustus has SH, Oracle (worthless ones now) and Colossus. Asoka has Great lighthouse. Pyramids is still for grabs, can’t remember about G.Lib.

Diplomatic and Religious environment

Spoiler :

Cathy is Hindu, as most of my cities, but I have no state religion. I wouldn’t like to annoy Izzy/Roosevelt (Buddhists) or Capac/Asoka/Augustus (Christians). The world was peaceful until 425AD. Trying to ensure metal supply for my berserkers, I amassed a small attack force (3 cats & 2 elephants – thanks for the ivory, Capac ), declared on Cathy and took Cathy’s city built atop of the copper 4 turns later (485AD). I now plan to get reinforcements and conquer her island before she gets longbows. Roosevelt and Izzy hate her too. I shall hurry before they dogpile on her.

Choosing the path to victory

Spoiler :

I’ve been relying on diplo wins lately. Maybe it is the easier way again. By 500AD Roosevelt is 1st in pop. If I can get aligned with the Christian block (and they stay that way)…who knows? With the lack of hammers, conquest or domination seem unlikely to me. Maybe those great general can help there, never tried them. Culture is out of question. Space race could be interesting, if I manage to get State Property soon, to spam workshops on those grassland tiles.

 

[Mutineer]

I want to launth a protest. Who ever created this map did not even try to play it. I undestand idea that challenger should be more dificult, but not at that degree. AI teching faster then in typical deity game. It has Banking 300BC. I am sorry, but when I play monarch Gotm I expoct somethng like Emperor dificulty on challenger. That is bejon rediculous.
Idea is to have a bit more challenge, not to have a unvinnable position. In additon trades. AI give only 20% beakers in trade. In short, for 1000 beakers tech AI propoused no more then 200 beakers in exchange. I am sorry, but it is simply not fun. I bgin to think that Idea behind Challenger now is to stop anyone to play it.

 

[Mutineer]

I tested the settings.. and didnt really feel that the difference was that big... guess it was more down to random luck.
In hindsight I should perhaps only have dropped the AIs difficulty to Warlords (or perhaps chieftain) - I will certainly try to use warlords difficulty some time in the future.

Atleast you got to experience the 'challenge' part in challenger

bullfeathers.

I settle in place, put research on mining and AI discover Buddism and hinduism the same turn when I only half of way toward mining.

 

[pigswill]

Contender. 5ad. Built five cities on the island. No religions. No wonders. Circumnavigation about 400bc. Last in score. Power is a joke. No enemies yet. By way of a change I decided to head towards currency for the extra trade route. Behind on tech (don't have alphabet, CoL, MC, calendar, construction). All in all, business as usual.

 

[Gyathaar]

bullfeathers.

I settle in place, put research on mining and AI discover Buddism and hinduism the same turn when I only half of way toward mining.

I did test.. but the tests could very much have been greatly changed by random luck...

I just did some more tests..

First game Buddism was founded in turn 17, and Hinduism in turn 25..
Second game both Buddism and Hinduism was founded in turn 8..
Third game Buddism was founded in turn 8, Hinduism in turn 9

Only difference was how I was moving the scout, which altered the random seeds... In the first game I did like I did in my tests.. which was putting the scout on autoexplore.. since I knew the map really well already... However I was playing from a different starting save.. so the random seeds would again yield different results (and I didnt write down the dates in the tests)

For some reference, I went though all the submitted games.. buddism was founded in turn 11 for pretty much all the contender games, and hinduism on average around turn 30.. in some games turn 23 or 24, and in some games not before close to turn 50.

However I didnt do extensive testing with these settings.. I only played till around 500BC or so and compared how the AIs was progressing compared to normal settings.. and they seemed to be only a few techs further along than normal... it is quite possible the early boost from this lead to a bigger advantage later into the game thou... which seems to have been the case...

 

[lilnev]

So I dug out some numbers from an xml file.

iResearchPercent: Settler 60, Noble 100, Monarch 115, Deity 130.
I believe this means that the Settler AI needs far fewer beakers for each tech (60% of normal, and barely more than half of the Monarch player -- proportionately worse than Deity human vs. Noble AI).

iCivicUpkeepPercent: Settler 50, Noble 80, Monarch 95, Deity 100.
iAICivicUpkeepPercent: Monarch 90, Deity 60.
If I understand this, these will be multiplied. SettlerAI-MonarchHuman = 0.5*0.9 = 45%. NobleAI-DeityHuman = 0.8*0.6 = 48%, about comparable. City and unit maintenaince costs also look similar.

iAttitudeChange: Settler 2, Noble and above -1.
iTechTradeKnownModifier: Settler -100, Noble and above 0.
I think these mean that the AIs get an automatic +2 diplo relations with each other; they'll trade anything to each other, including monopoly techs; WFYABTA limits for inter-AI trades are modestly higher. I only really noticed that the AIs were doing ridiculous things when I hit Philosophy in 100-something BC and it was already universally known. On Immortal, I sometimes get beat to Philosophy by someone, but it still has good trade value to almost everyone else. So, this was the point I realized I was in trouble. I suspect Gyathaar's tests didn't show how fast it was going to go because he only ran it to 500 BC, and the AIs hadn't yet started mad trading.

There are some big advantages that the AI gets on higher levels that aren't replicated here: starting units, especially free workers, really drive their explosive starts; and the AI gets bonuses to growth and construction, and free upgrades. So the tech pace of this game felt like Deity, but without the early crush as the AIs grab all the land, or Deity-level barbarians to whack you before you even start. If I'd known what I was up against and tried for a cultural victory from the beginning, I think it'd be possible.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Mutineer]

Idea is, If I had even remote idea about How it would played technology wize, I would have taken very different aproach and may be get in resonable position, maybe. But even them. I was able to get 2 tech which I was a ble to trade to an other civ. Metalocastin, I was offered Politheism + gold for it and Theology, was offereg archry and gold for it.

It is posible that AI was allready researching it, but I do not think so.
On lover dificulty level trade deals are mach more better for human, so I suspec this 100 is 100% bonus to trade value AI has. So, even if you get Monopoly tech you are not lickly to be able to get any good value out of it.

 

[uberfish]

I played challenger because of the interesting premise and the AI tech pace was certainly deity+ but I'm not complaining. Challenger is supposed to be hard.

I built a fishing boat and worker, researched AH/BW for slavery and built up to 4 cities before trying for Great Lighthouse in capital. I lost that wonder to the AI. I exited the ancient age with Iron Working to unlock the gems and then Metal Casting to (successfully) build the Colossus.

I was running 2 scientists and an engineer in my capital and popped an engineer in 95 AD which I used to build the still open Pyramids and switch to Representation. But the AI was still a huge way ahead. One thing I noticed is if I did get a tech that some AI didn't have, they would trade at only a tiny fraction of the value, considerably worse than what regular deity AIs would normally give. The first tech I could trade was paper, and that only to Isabella, and the best I could get for it was alphabet.

I stayed atheist in the hope the AIs would fight each other. They didn't, but at least they didn't invade me.

 

[Mutineer]

Uber, challenger suppous to be hurder, but still comparateble to mainstream game. This is not comparatable at all. In addition, insted of just having additional heal and happiness AI got lots of other bonuses, thich where not declared. If I know befor hand what tech trading situation would be I would have my all plan different. The only to win was to beeline to Iron working and kill one or if fast enogth 2 civs befor they discover Alphavit.
The fact that they freely exchange tech make any plan now imposible.
The fact that they all love each other making stearing trouble imposible.
Isa love some one else with different religion in my game! So, not only AI has deity level reseach bonuses, exchange tech with you for 25% of beakers, trade freely between themself, have free +2(or3?) health happiness. There are probably some other bonuses two, which we do not know about yet.

That is no way comparatable with mainstream game. Even deity game would be easier.

 

[Thrallia]

Izzy loved Caesar in my game...they were different religions as well.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I am also trying Challenger. It does feel harder than Deity---Mutineer is right about that. If Gyathaar tested the game and the AIs were only slightly ahead of the normal tech pace at 500 BC, something must have been changed between his test and the actual game.

However, this is no reason for Mutineer to be a complete jerk. The game is way harder than a normal Monarch game, and that's good, because I think Monarch is super boring.

At 5 AD, I'm one turn away from Colossus (it turns out you can get some wonders at this setting because the AIs tech so fast that they consider those wonders too old to be worth building, I guess). I'm also 2 turns from Machinery; unfortunately, everyone except Roosevelt already has it. My ability to get anything useful by tech trading has been minimal.

I am beginning to doubt that the game is winnable, but I will probably keep playing for a while. Unfortunately, Huayna Capac is Annoyed with me (Augustus Caesar demanded I switch to Confucianism, and I agreed, probably unwisely), and if he attacks me, that's probably game over---I can't really see how I can defend myself with just warriors. If I had stayed neutral, then cultural win might have been possible.

I did found a city on the hut, next to the iron. I'm surprised everyone didn't do that.

I had one annoying instance of bad luck---my trireme lost to a barb galley, which pillaged my fish. Not nearly as bad as my luck in GOTM15, though.

4000 BC: founded Nidaros in place
3790 BC: Buddhism in a distant land
3760 BC: Hinduism in a distant land
3460 BC: Animal Husbandry
3160 BC: Mining
2860 BC: Judaism in a distant land
2650 BC: Bronze Working
2350 BC: The Wheel
2020 BC: Pottery
1960 BC: Uppsala founded 7E 1N (silk)
1690 BC: Confucianism in a distant land
1570 BC: Haithabu founded 4E 1N (gems)
1480 BC: Sailing
925 BC: Iron Working
865 BC: Birka founded 8E 2S (pigs, 2 horses)
820 BC: Writing
760 BC: My trireme loses to barb galley, near Nidaros
760 BC: Christianity in a distant land
580 BC: Alphabet
550 BC: I'm so far behind, someone gives me Mathematics!
520 BC: Christianity spreads to Haithabu
490 BC: Taoism in a distant land
475 BC: Bjørgvin founded 5E 2S (2 iron, clams)
325 BC: Metal Casting
310 BC: trade for Masonry, Mysticism
265 BC: Jelling founded 12E 1S (gems, clams)
160 BC: Compass
145 BC: trade for Polytheism
130 BC: trade for Priesthood
130 BC: Confucianism spreads to Birka
85 BC: Buddhism spreads to Bjørgvin
5 AD: Roskilde founded 11E 3N (fish, silk)

 

[DaviddesJ]

Isabella demands that I convert to Hinduism, and I do. Two turns of anarchy is worth it for +2 relations (+1 vs -1 for refusing) in the long run.

So your plan is to switch per the demand, then switch back 5 turns later to remove the negative modifiers with other AIs? Do you really think that's worth it?

 

[DaviddesJ]

(btw looking back at the map, it struck me that the tile with the goody hut would've made a cool city site with 2 irons, gems, and tons of food from the seafood and lakes. But of course that only works with hindsight, since most people will probably have already settled round there before they discover iron working.)

I don't understand what you mean. Where else would you settle? It seems an obvious place to put a city, even before the iron is revealed. The only alternative spot would be on the iron itself, and I would count it unlucky if you did that, but I would think that most people would get IW before Sailing.

 

[akots]

I'm going to try Challenger. ...
Um, guys? Did anyone playtest these settings? The AIs are going quite a bit faster than Immortal, maybe even faster than Deity. ...

I did try and it was indeed absolutely insane. The AIs founded Islam around 500BC and all had Feudalism at around 300BC. I quit after noticing at 200BC that one of Isabella's cities was size 17.

IMHO, tech pace was considerably faster than on Deity level on these map settings.

...
475 BC: Bjørgvin founded 5E 2S (2 iron, clams)
...

In my game India built a city on the southern island iirc 3 or 4 turns earlier.

If you can win this one, especially by military means, that would be actually quite interesting to see.

Judging by initial game development, AI will launch in space probably around 1400-1500AD.

 

[akots]

I tested the settings.. and didnt really feel that the difference was that big... guess it was more down to random luck.
In hindsight I should perhaps only have dropped the AIs difficulty to Warlords (or perhaps chieftain) - I will certainly try to use warlords difficulty some time in the future.

Atleast you got to experience the 'challenge' part in challenger

Difference was huge and completely unexpected actually developing considerably later in the game around 500BC when it all became so clear.

So, I completely agree with Mutineer in this case.

IMHO, from challenger one can expect a 1-1.5 levels up, not three levels above what the game is. And three levels above Monarch is Deity. Not that many people try to play it as well. And certainly not me any time soon. So, please, be more generous to crazy folks.

 

[slowrider]

I posted in the pregame 10 test runs with the contender and challanger settings. Below are first contender then challanger with average then (min/max). Of coarse the faster teching and wonders are only part of the story as the AIs have benefits sooner, and from the discussion, seem to be more friendly and trade more freely with challanger vs contender.

Buddism 25 (13-49) … 15 (8-30)
Hindu 43 (20-69) … 28 (12-39)
Judism 85 (65-105) … 54 (37-69)
Confu 135 (114-162) … 90 (72-105)
Christ 172 (150-197) … 125 (112-147)
Tao 203 (173-244) … 154 (141-180)
Islam 243 (220-265) … 186 (151-202)

Stonehen 106 (75-148) … 156 (67-225+) >225 5x
Oracle 106 (92-132) … 122 (77-157)
Gr Wall 140 (87-195) … 144 (67-225)
Gr Light 161 (137-197) … 157 (114-187)
Pyramids 172 (109-272) … 202 (159-225+) >225 4x
Temp of Arm 155 (129-205) … 152 (115-221)
Parth 196 (138-260) … 201 (159-225+) 5x
Hang Gard 197 (172-216) … 179 (134-220)
Great Lib 215 (201-236) … 162 (131-210)
Colossus 220 (161-239) … 205 (159-225+) >225 6x

Circumnav 251 (220-273) … 190 (177-197)

 

[DaviddesJ]

I posted in the pregame 10 test runs with the contender and challanger settings. Below are first contender then challanger with average then (min/max).

Hmm. Several of the times in my game were faster than your minimums.

Buddhism 7
Hinduism 8
Judaism 38
Confucianism 77
Christianity 115
Taoism 134