WOTM 06 - First Spoiler

[zagnut]

Thanks shadow2k.

I founded in place and built a workboat first. Then explored the entire island. Built five cities, one on the SW island. Then settled in to research my way into last place.

I thought I was doing okay, only to find out, as I met more and more of my kind and wonderful neighbors, that I was in last place. Of course, you can always win in Civ. At least that is what the experts say. (Wish I were an expert). Augustus is the big kid on the block in my game. Fortunately we have a great relationship. We are both Confucians. He is close, big and friendly. That can’t hurt as the game goes on.

I see that some of you got silver on the hills near the capital. That must have provided quite a boost. I was not that lucky.

There were no wars up to 500 AD. I think everyone was trying to figure out where all the other civs were.

The game has been a great trading experience. That was the only way I was able to keep up. Selectively choosing techs that I could trade and clawing my way back into the game. At 500 AD I’m still in last place, but heading upward.

 

[Thrallia]

hm...in my game, I managed to found 5 cities on the main island by 500AD, and oen on the second iron off the island, as others have, to gain access to iron.

I used two workboats, exploring in opposite directions to meet every civ by 500BC and gain circumnavigation in around 900BC. I also had buddhism spread to me from Roosevelt, who got it from Izzy. Thus at 1AD, Izzy, Roosevelt, Cathy, Huayna, and I were all buddhist. I was thinking of doing a berserker sea assault on Rome, which was Jewish at that point razing all his cities so Askoa could take over the space, become a superpower, and be my diplo opponent against an entirely buddhist world.

How quickly things change....Rossevelt founded Confuscianism, converted, and then converted Cathy. Rome converted Huayna to Judaism, leaving myself and Izzy as the only buddhists...and she would no longer trade techs with me as 'I was becoming too advanced.' I began fearing I had chosen the wrong ally, especially when Huayna decided to pick a fight.

Huayna declared war on me, and I was just starting to trade my way back up to par in tech when 500AD hit. I was close to CS, which would hopefully give me an unbeatable edge over Huayna since he didn't yet have Feudalism.

As a side note: Izzy is currently +17 with me...I've never had her even be pleased with me before, she must really really love people who are her own religion.

 

[lilnev]

Is anyone else playing Challenger? It's, um, how shall I put it.... Completely insane? Something like that. I haven't traded for a single tech, because I've never had anything anyone wanted. Even when I lightbulbed Philosophy, all the AIs already knew it. I feel like I'm researching fairly well -- it's 5 AD, I've got Philosophy/CoL/Monarchy, and I'm partway through CS. They're simply faster. I'm sure I won't get to CS first, but maybe if I stay on a hard beeline to Education I can use it to backfill stuff. I'm thinking of bailing to cultural, though my cities aren't well-placed for it (all coastal in the vain hope of getting the GLH) and only one religion has spread to me so far.

peace,
lilnev

 

[VitalSol]

Initialy I wanted to skip this WOTM due to some RL issues, but then I thought "Vikings? on the island map? fast ships, cool UU, that should be fun and easy!" and went in as a contender.

Settled in place, founded Hindu. I put second city on the other end of the island to work fish, clams and eventualy gems. Third city between two horses. Also built Stonehenge, to get free border expansion.
I sent a workboat east to explore. Met Cathy and other guys.
The workboat revealed two goody huts, so I built a galley and a scout in the capital (even before I had a trading post) and took those huts. First one gave me experience, and second Iron Working. Iron! Iron is revealed now, and this calls for the change of plan for the 4th city location. I want this city between those 2 mountains, to work 2 Irons, gems and a fresh water lake. This is going to be terrific city, both high food and production!
My work boat found Roo, who declares on Isabella. Have fun, guys!

I put my 4th city onto cpecified location, with the worker to build the Iron mine. Barb galley shows up and pillages my eastern fish, then goes for clams, scared away by Russian and Roman triremes, and finaly pillages clams too. Bastards!
My religion spreads to 3 Russian cities, but not to a single city of my own. Russians convert and we are pals.
Eventually it spreads to my Iron city (wich I named Monterrey, not to be confused with Monterey in California - this one got 2 Rs) and said city gets border expansion.
By the way, I'm dead last in score but that doesn't bother me at all, reseach wise I'm in line.

By the time my iron mine is finished, the fleet of 2 Roman galleys supported by 2 triremes shows up from the south.
Now, I don't like that at all. First, I can't see who's in the ships - I didn't knew about this new Warlords feature.
Second, it can not be the Settler galley, this is the invasion fleet! I'm toast!
They can go to my undefended Monterrey or to my capital, defended by a lonely warrior.
Well, to cut the long story short, Romans declared on me, landed on my Iron mine, captured the worker and raised my Monterrey (size 1), leaving me without the iron.
(actually, as I understand now, they did a classical worker steal!)
They landed 3 archers and 1 chariot.
I whip Archers in all my 3 cities.
Next turn another galley shows up, lands Settler and Archer on my iron island.
Romans founded the city of Mediolanum on my small iron island.

Now here is perhaps a bug in the AI - they left their 4 units on the shore between 2 mountains and left.
Perhaps AI thinks that since they are on the same land mass, they can reach my cities, while in fact they can't.
OTOH, when they bring the next wave of attackers, they can land the new pack, then pick up old units and thus have x2 bigger invasion force!
I'm scared.
On top of that, I don't have access to the iron now, so if Romans show up with praetoreans, I'm dead.
I don't know what to think.
I decided the best way is to build up the Navy and intercept the next wave of attackers while they're in the boats. Or may be try to block coastal access.
Then gather up forces and remove the Roman city, may be this will convince Augustus Caesar to make peace.
Besides, I can't access Roman mainland since I will have to go through the ocean tile in their cultural borders, right?
I mean, I remeber all that cry from GOTM 14 when we where Napoleon.
This is turned out wrong, another difference between Warlords and Vanilla.

Meanwhile, my eastbound workboat sees orange Incaish cultural borders but can't get there through the ocean.
I land my idle scout onto Incas land then and circumnavigate through the combined action of the scout and workboat, in the late BC years.

The story of the military engagement against Romans will be told in the next spoiler.

 

[synthboy]

My first WOTM quit in disgust (although I have been back to replay with some much more pleasing results but, obviously, no submission ) after some truely terrible luck/desicions.

Point 1
My inital scout amazingly defeats a bear whilst stood on grassland. He gets Woodsman I as a promotion and I move him to a jungle hill to recover. Whilst there he is attacked and killed by a wolf. This all before I have even explored all of my starting island.

Point 2
I decide against going for the Great Lighthouse and instead focus on the Colussus. I use slowrider's guidelines from here on when the AI is likely to build early wonders and I'm on target, especially using the axe and whip. I get beaten four turns out by an AI 50 turns off the earliest time slowrider had recorded. Sure I get a bunch of cash but I've also wasted all those lovely forests around my capital.

Point 3
My biggest mistake was not building an iron city on the southern shores of the lake as soon as I could. Instead, by the time I get round to building a settler Asoka has turned up and plonked a city down on the island to the south. This means that my iron city is defiently pushed for space although I do get the iron.

Point 4
I make building cultral buildings in my iron city a priority, knowing that without some culture I'm not going to get the extra iron. Asoka then dumps a GA in the city, his borders expand and not oinly am I left with no iron but my city flips in the bargin.

I spend the rest of the evening shooting hyperactyive 12 year olds in the head on BF2142 as an outlet for my unbelievable frustration.

 

[Thrallia]

oh, speaking of which...I also missed out on the only wonder I attempted, the Great Library. I chopped every forest around the capital in an attempt to get it built in time and was about 5 turns away from being able to rush it at a cost of 4 pop, when Caesar built it...from what I've gathered at 500AD(having gotten OB with everyone at one point or another and thus explored everyone's land except Asoka's), Caesar, despite having what appears at first glance to be a tundraw wasteland, has built virtually every single wonder this game. Thus, he's in my sights to be the next victim after Huayna pays for his assault on me.

 

[lilnev]

I'm going to try Challenger. Not sure just what the AI = Settler will mean, but here goes.

Scout NE-NW, settle in place. Worker-workboat-warrior-warrior while growing to size 5 (working the lake tile for commerce most of the time). Expecting an isolated start, there isn't the rush to grab the best city spots. Research AH-Mining-BW. Tons of food = whipping.

My scout didn't get far before losing a 90% fight. Lots of grassland, limited food specials, Financial leader. Cottages ftw?

Buddhism and Hinduism went fast, then Judaism in 2980 BC. That was quick. There are at least 2 civs starting with Myst and one serious religious hardcore.

Cities founded N of Gems and E of Pigs.

IW to clear jungle. I'm not expecting to be able to trade for it, and I want those Gems. Then Writing for libraries (avoiding monuments most places, as the inner ring of tiles is fine), Sailing-Mysticism-Masonry to start the GLH. Then Poly-Priest-Monarchy for cheap happiness.

Christianity in 775 BC. Someone's really nuts.

I get beat to the GLH in 505 BC. Oh well, looks like no fastest finish for me. I really don't like the GLH because of the huge variability in when the AI gets it. A few turns later I spy Russian Red to the east, then meet Augustus in 390 BC. He's very advanced. Monarchy in 355 BC, research CoL. Pig/Horse city is running scientists for the Philosophy lightbulb. Switch to Caste System for several turns to run 4-5 scientists. Then I fill in Meditation and realize that everyone already has Philosophy.

Um, guys? Did anyone playtest these settings? The AIs are going quite a bit faster than Immortal, maybe even faster than Deity.

CS in 200 AD, everyone but Asoka already has it, and he'll only give me Currency+60. Most folks have Paper.

320 AD. Paper. Only Asoka doesn't have it (this is what counts as "backwards"), but he's close: he won't even trade me a map for it. Onwards to Education!

410 AD. I made the mistake of actually connecting Iron. Oops. Dumb, dumb, dumb. I hope that mistake doesn't cost me this game, but it might. Now I can't train warriors for 15 hammers/happy face. I have to waste a turn on Archery, and thereafter my cheapest garrison troops under HR cost 37 hammers, instead of 27. Well, I'll have to live with it.

Isabella demands that I convert to Hinduism, and I do. Two turns of anarchy is worth it for +2 relations (+1 vs -1 for refusing) in the long run.

My city placements. Again, I wasn't anticipating needing cultural victory. I've now got six cities and two religions, so I can give it a shot.

All the AIs are identical in their techs. Education won't be tradable. I'm going to Liberalism anyway for Free Speech, then Music, then hope.

If anyone actually wins on Challenger, I want to see it. But, "Among other bonuses, the AI receives higher happiness and health limits" really wasn't fair warning.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Jastrow]

Point 3
My biggest mistake was not building an iron city on the southern shores of the lake as soon as I could. Instead, by the time I get round to building a settler Asoka has turned up and plonked a city down on the island to the south. This means that my iron city is defiently pushed for space although I do get the iron.

Similar thing happened to me... It was Augustus, not Asoka, but he ploped down on the Iron of Iron island before I got to between the two mountains. Luckily, I had just got litterature, so I rushed to Music, and used the gree GA to push his borders back (and actually fliped him a couple of dozen turns later.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

@lilnev: Is there an option to name your screenshots? Where's that?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I guess after joining in the discussions about other people's spoilers I ought to get round to actually writing my own one. After all, if I wait much longer I’ll totally kill my chances of getting to be the first spoiler post in the thread won’t I …

Well here’s my little Civ at 500-ish AD



The Grand Plan

Spoiler :

I started on the assumption that I’d fill the home island, perhaps take advantage of the AI’s relatively poor ability to colonize on sea-based maps to land-grab a lot of outlying islands too, and get a great-library/colossus-fuelled fast science output, presumably to the spacerace (coz that’s what I always seem to end up doing&#8230 I also decided to prioritize trading posts everywhere and the circumnavigation bonus.

I settled in-place but only after a turn of exploring South with the settler.

Early Techs (Texts?) and Builds

Spoiler :

Went for BW first, then then beelined for sailing, then alphabet. After I saw the lack of copper, as well as the jungle-buried gems, I seriously thought of going for iron working early, but decided to try and trade for it. Unfortunately I discovered alphabet so early that noone was willing to trade much anyway, since although I’d met most civs they mainly hadn’t met each other. So I ended up researching IW myself anyway. Why can’t the AI cooperate more when you need it to help you win the game eh!

Builds: Workboat (for the fish), workboat (to explore west), [think I threw in a warrior or two here], trading post, workboat (to explore east). (This btw was the point where I realized that a trading post doesn't give +1 movement to workboats )

Yeah, you noticed the lack of workers there. I was using slavery to rush everything I wanted. Since I was building trading posts everywhere, I could use the 2food/3commerce coastal tiles to keep my science up, so there didn’t seem much point cottaging initially, or in mining the hills, and the gems were inaccessible before iron working. There wasn’t much that any workers could do! So I spent the early game basically poprushing to fill the continent, and secure granaries and trading posts in all cities.

I did get the circumnavigation bonus, IIRC before 1000BC. I was highly amused at the strip of ocean that stopped you going west of Huayna. (My western workboat spent many years exploring every nook and cranny round there to try and find a route before giving up). Also amused in the early AD years to see at one point that all the civs knew everyone else, except Huayna (who only knew me). Can’t blame me, Huayna, I allowed open borders, I wasn’t trying to stop you.

Problems

Spoiler :

Trouble is, I got a bit too addicted to the sea-commerce, and what with the poprushing the trading posts, somehow at 500AD I still hadn’t got round to building workers or cottaging much. Not only that but he only early cottage I built was on the pigs in the capital, on the basis that since I wasn’t getting animal husbandry for a while, I may as well get some additional benefit from that tile. But of course that meant when I did get animal husbandry, I lost that cottage. Looking at my 500AD map now, I’m amazed how undeveloped the land is. But sometimes you just don’t notice stuff when you’re caught up in the game. And the infrastructure in my cities was all quite good.

The other trouble, as various other people here have noticed, was the lack of hammers. That kinda sconched any thoughts of wonders. I didn’t even try to build either the colossus or the great library, the two I really wanted. I guessed that I’d just be wasting the few hammers I did have. So I considered plan B: Capture them. Trouble was, the AI wasn’t playing fair on this either. Look at where the wonders are:



Washington and Caesar are basically building everything. Washington is too far away for an early conquest. And I could rule out Caesar too since in 500AD I didn’t even have much idea where Caesar was. Well, correction, I had a strong suspicion he was South of me, since I could see odd border tiles, but it was obvious there was no direct galley-accessible route. And in what was clearly a deliberate plan to confuse me about his location (I tell you, these AIs have got it in for me this game), he’d planted the City of Ravenna in between Russia and America So perhaps he was there? Either way, he was too inaccessible to attack. So, looks like no wonders for me for a looooong time. (btw, lots of people are talking in this spoiler about attacking Caesar. I’d love to know how you guys were planning to get to him )

I wasn’t doing great people either so no lightbulbing. No wonders, but also I hadn’t founded any cities with enough food to become great people farms. This is bad. (Wish I’d had the foresight to see the potential of that gem/pig/clam/(iron) site between the mountains. That would’ve made a real difference.

Solutions. Viking Style.

Spoiler :

So in 500AD I’d just declared war on Catherine, whose main crime was to be the only Civ who looked close enough to be worth attacking. And to have some nicely developed cottages that I needed. Yes, other people use workers to build cottages. I’m going to war to get them. Well, isn’t that what the Vikings sorta did…?

 

[Gyathaar]

Um, guys? Did anyone playtest these settings? The AIs are going quite a bit faster than Immortal, maybe even faster than Deity.

I tested the settings.. and didnt really feel that the difference was that big... guess it was more down to random luck.
In hindsight I should perhaps only have dropped the AIs difficulty to Warlords (or perhaps chieftain) - I will certainly try to use warlords difficulty some time in the future.

Atleast you got to experience the 'challenge' part in challenger

 

[AgedOne]

... And I could rule out Caesar too since in 500AD I didn’t even have much idea where Caesar was. Well, correction, I had a strong suspicion he was South of me, since I could see odd border tiles, but it was obvious there was no direct galley-accessible route. And in what was clearly a deliberate plan to confuse me about his location (I tell you, these AIs have got it in for me this game), he’d planted the City of Ravenna in between Russia and America So perhaps he was there? Either way, he was too inaccessible to attack. So, looks like no wonders for me for a looooong time. (btw, lots of people are talking in this spoiler about attacking Caesar. I’d love to know how you guys were planning to get to him )

I expect it was down to where Caesar decided to plant his cities. In my game (although I didn't attack him) there was a route through to the south-west. You might just be able to see the edge of his border in this screenshot from 485AD:

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I expect it was down to where Caesar decided to plant his cities. In my game (although I didn't attack him) there was a route through to the south-west. You might just be able to see the edge of his border in this screenshot from 485AD:

Ah yes, I see what you mean, so I guess some people could reach him in that way. Doing that you'd have to avoid attacking the first city you came to, as that would leave your troops stranded when Caesar's borders collapse (Which would be quite an amusing mistake to make. Well, probably more amusing if someone else makes it )

 

[lilnev]

@lilnev: Is there an option to name your screenshots? Where's that?

The "Enter screen shot name" box comes up when I press shift-PrtScn. What I haven't figured out is how to keep it from showing up in the screenshot.

Atleast you got to experience the 'challenge' part in challenger

Actually it's kind of fun. The cast of AIs are diplomatically tractable (crosses fingers), so it feels like a peaceful Deity challenge. It's just a lot more than I was expecting. Liberalism went in 500 AD, for example.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Jastrow]

Ah yes, I see what you mean, so I guess some people could reach him in that way. Doing that you'd have to avoid attacking the first city you came to, as that would leave your troops stranded when Caesar's borders collapse (Which would be quite an amusing mistake to make. Well, probably more amusing if someone else makes it )

Yep... I did that... Luckily, my initial force was big enough to take 3 or 4 other cities before I had to stop, wait for the first city I took to rebuild enough culture to connect me up again and let me bring reinforcements.

 

[Thrallia]

I had a culture bridge I could cross to reach Caesar. I was planning on pop-rushing a cat and Zerk assault force that could fit on 3 or 4 galleys, then aim directly for Rome. I was more interested in taking all his good coastal cities and then vassaling him afterward, which meant starting with his farther cities and moving back toward my culture bridge, so that reinforcements would take less time.

 

[Email10]

The "Enter screen shot name" box comes up when I press shift-PrtScn. What I haven't figured out is how to keep it from showing up in the screenshot.

I use just Print-Screen, then you don't get the pop-up.

 

[The Mad Swede]

Well, my first priority was to settle the island quickly. I actually made a dotmpa that I pondered for a while. I placed my cities well, or so I thought. I should actually have made a super production city, but I didnt. I should have settled more cities and cared less about overlap, but I didn't.

I played friendly, and peaceful, but I never meant to. It just happened. I wanted to settle my cities without trouble and when I finished that I was in no position to attack anyone.

Tech pace was furious and I kept up well with incessant trading.

This is my situation at 260 AD:

Spoiler :

I should not have founded my 2nd city in the jungle, this was a bad mistake. Many ppl founded it by the horses, much better decision. I never founded a super production city either. Well, I'll learn something from this at least, even if I do not win. I was also way to afraid of city overlap which was silly. I should have founded way more cities on my islands with overlap.

I got Great Lighthouse and Colossus as these were my priorities. Maybe GL was a mistake, I'm not sure.

Comments are welcome...

 

[VitalSol]

Ah yes, I see what you mean, so I guess some people could reach him in that way. Doing that you'd have to avoid attacking the first city you came to, as that would leave your troops stranded when Caesar's borders collapse (Which would be quite an amusing mistake to make. Well, probably more amusing if someone else makes it )

Well, I did this
I made peace after capturing this city, and I knew another, long route to Caesar's lands, so I started to ferry troops for the 2nd war all the way around.
By the time my first galley arrived, my own borders poped out and I was able to use the short route again.

 

[slowrider]

So at 500AD, I control two islands although I don't have much production. Cathy's cities have nice commerce but even worse production than my own. I'm building the Heroic Epic and my first great general became an instructor in that city. Its currently a consolodation phase as I build courthouses in Russia and my first berserkers. I'm planning to attack Roosevelt next to get the Pyramids.

What is your strategy when you get the Pryamids ... do you adopt Representation or Police State?

Also, when a religion spread to you did you convert or stay nondenominational?