WOTM 10 First Spoiler

[Conquistador 63]

It is now 140AD in London. The Big Ben and the Parliament aren't quite ready yet, but the Monarchy is already established. Prince Conquistador is looking for a Lady Di wannabe, and he's definitely not willing to settle for a Camille instead.

In fact, things are not looking that bright on the military front, but the englishmen still hope their focus on science will eventually pay off at the end.

A couple test games on my own "worst case scenario" (no-metal island) has taught me a few lessons so when the real game was available I decided to walk on the safe side and pursue a feudalism slingshot for the Longbowmen.

London was founded 4000BC as their settlers were too lazy to move. The labor's party decided that a worker force should be build ASAP, to build mines and quarries first. A beeline to writing (wheel/pottery, with masonry inbetween) then another one to priesthood was the research path. Some MM allowed me to reach the Oracle feudalism slingshot in 1630BC.

Meanwhile, York was founded in 2050BC, in the SW, being able to grab the incense but not the mainland gems, which I believed would be hard to keep safe from pillage.

Alphabet was reached in 1120BC, and I soon discovered Iron in the island. Maybe I should have been more aggressive earlier then, but how could I tell beforehand?

Buddhism had spread in the british isles so I reluctantly converted by 1000BC. From some bad experience in test games, I was afraid of invasions so I started building some trirremes, but this didn't stop Shaka from declaring and invading 565BC. Luckily I had a LB who took care of his impies. After that I was able to blockade him with a couple trirremes.

The other threatening civs with nearby coastal cities were Ramses, Stalin and Kublai. The 1st was a buddhist friend, the 2nd was too busy kicking ottoman butt (Mehmed already dead) and the 3rd, well, I just had to take care of him.

I declared on Kublai 190BC, taking Beshbalik by the NW silk in 70BC. The trouble was it was too close to a Malinese city so it has been hard to keep it from revolting (in fact it did revolt once without the warning message but I luckily noticed it). Also, some annoying troops from Hannibal & Brennus, who had also declared on me were around trying to harrass me.

So the current overview is that:
. No wars going on at the moment
. I'm running HR, Bureau, Caste, OrgRel (buddhist)
. I'm low on cities/area but I'm ~2nd in tech (friendly Asoka is running wild with it), I have the GL, and I have just researched Education in 140AD and London alone has +100 bpt. Unfortunately Mansa is on the Hindu side, I'd love to have him to trade tech with, but Asoka will have to take his place.
. I have the whole land map (Paper in 5AD) so I should know where myt enemies and friends are.
. I am low on troops (a few cats and LBs - have been unlucky losing 95% odds battles with 25xp drill 4 LBs) but I have just built a military academy with my 1st GG and current plans include Heroic and National Epic - I'm able to pump troops every 2 turns now. I might wait a bit for grens/cannons or redcoats before going kick some hindu/jew behinds.
. My best case scenario is yet another fast diplo win - but space race is not out of question, provided I have the patience to work towards it. I think I just to need to be careful with backstabber AIs - they have fooled me more than once in my test games.
. I have yet to figure out how to handle the 3rd party cultural pressure on the mainland cities I plan to acquire - running Caste for artists just doesn't seem to be enough.

 

[Zoolooman]

I followed a plain CS slingshot. Mysticism, Polytheism (better trading tech than Meditation), Masonry, The Wheel (to hook up my Gems, Marble and Stone in that order), Priesthood, Writing, Mathematics, CoL, Civil Service (via the Oracle), and Alphabet.

I settled in place, immediately built a worker, and mined the gems. I built two workboats next, parked my warrior along the island to stop the spawning of Barbarians, and hooked up my Marble and Stone. Realizing that I was almost completely safe on the island, I didn't build but one military unit (another warrior) while running up to the CS slingshot; and I prayed for metal to appear in my territory. I built a library the INSTANT I had access to writing, and assigned two pop points to that until I built the Great Library. I built both Stonehenge and the Oracle, teched to literature almost instantly, and chopped the forests for the Great Library. At this point, I was ahead of everyone in tech except for Ramses, though I was low on the power ratings and the score. Rather than take the obvious path to Karakorum, I traded for BW, iron-working, and all the ancient techs, teched to Machinery and Construction, and sent my first waves of macemen and catapults to Ramses in 300 BC. I ran Ramses over, leaving only an odd city in the far east. Monte declared on me, and I took all but one of his cities in retaliation (well, took two, razed one, and received one when he pleaded for peace), leaving another odd city in the northwest. It's maybe 300 to 400 AD, I have researched Feudalism and Engineering, and I'm stacking up a constant stream of macemen and trebuchets to ship to the mainland on my galleys. Nobody has even gotten close to attacking my islands thanks to a good trireme defense.

I personally think it was a mistake to grab Ireland, but I haven't regretted it yet. It slowed down my economy, but in return, I've kept that Wine (to replace the happiness I lost when the monuments obsoleted) and kept my island nation safe from cultural conflicts.

At this point, I have massive unhappiness from slavery overuse, but I think my main cities will recover in due time, and I can easily coast through another two wars with my current forces and military technology. But I'm confident that I'll hit rifling and redcoats soon enough...

Also, I found that crossbows were immensely useful against Monte, since he stacked up on Axemen and Jaguars, and I think that crossbows are better suited to killing melee than my macemen. And if anything, they're at least much cheaper to produce.

Edit: I make it sound like I'm doing great, but I doubt I'm doing as good as C63 there. Some of these diehard CivIV players are amazing.

 

[Harbourboy]

This indeed a classic GOTM setup and is most enjoyable.

 

[da_Vinci]

I will be able to post my details later tonight, but the common reports of having war declared by the AI is different from my experience: except for one suicidal backstab by Khan, no AI has declared on me. Maybe because I remain an atheist ...? Or maybe a Druid, as I do have the 'Henge.

dV

 

[orb]

Just finished it...and doing this post from memory, so hopefully I can recall enough of what happened.


Settled in place, and put York in Scotland and Nottingham in Ireland - My thoughts were to try for Domination, so lots of War. As a consequence I thought one of my first objectives was Pyramids for Police State. - Got it.

Also to afford a large army I wanted lots of commerce improvements. - Got Lighthouse and Colossus. (One of my favorite tactics in old Civ was the sea borne landing, using ships to attack the city units...not quite the same now, but my plan was to use the Navy to weaken coastal cities to support my land invasion. (Rather than having to march half way round the world)

So I'm busy building London and York with the plan to attack Mansu first...When Monte declares on me. - Aztec axemen land and capture Nottingham....I start trucking my forces over to the forrest in the north of Ireland to prepare for the attack....

Tech wise I was trading around the world with Hatty vieing for pole position. - I was about 8th (I think) at this stage.

Cant recall the year at this stage so I'll stop here before I type up the entire history.

 

[Harbourboy]

the common reports of having war declared by the AI is different from my experience

Yes. As at the time of this spoiler, I have not had a single AI declare war on me and I have not declared war on anyone else either. They are fighting amongst themselves constantly, but not with me.

 

[archphoenix]

I followed a plain CS slingshot.

Wow, CS slingshot!
I waste submission for wotm10, to tried more than 5 times that each time AI beat me to it.(with Adventurer class )

 

[da_Vinci]

This may well be my best XOTM start ever ...

Settled in place, as in early tests nothing could beat the power of the extra hammer in the city tile and the abilty to work the lake for 3F 2C right off.

Built WB, WB, Worker, WB, Settler, whipping WB 2 and WB 3. WB three explored a little then fished in York.

Tech path: BW (3490BC), Mason (3160), Wheel (2890), Myst (2710), Hunt (2530), AH (2200) Arch (2020), Writing (1510) eventually alpha at 850 BC.

Founded York where everyone else did in 2470. Decided to spam archers to assault Beshbalik to get that NW copper (see screenshot). Also get henge to pop fat cross in York.

Built henge in London in 2320 BC, Oracle there for MC in 1090 BC. Great Lighthouse 160 BC. Nat Epic in London 95 AD.

York got Colossus in 655 BC, and Heroic Epic 85 BC.

Founded Nottingham (but it had to be renamed to Dublin, right?) in Ireland in 940 BC.

Had enough archers to go for Beshbalik in 1510 ... Declared on KKhan. Four turns later I took it. Six archers attacking three ... I lost three, won a 12.7% combat, then a 91.7% one. Made peace ASAP to make axes without harrassment. The 1240 BC screenshot shows the result.

By 460 BC I was ready for war with Stalin. Took St Pete in 355, then made peace. 20 AD declared again, took Moscow in 185 AD and Novgorod to kill Stalin in 320.

The 365 AD screenshot shows the scores ... I have a 200 point score lead. KKhan declares on me that turn, and after some field skirmishes by 500 AD I am moving to take his cities.

I feel like I have this one under control, but after my GOTM 19 fiasco where I thought the same thing, I am taking nothing for granted.

dV

 

[Cabledawg]

As I said in the pre-game discussion, I assumed this was an island and I was right. I moved the settler 2N to get the gold and allow for a 3rd city. I beelined towards Mono to get a religion and was surprised when i also founded Poly. I held off for 2 turns settling the copper/gem so Mono would found there....and it did.

So I now had 2 cities with a religion in each...nice. Built Stonehenge and started Oracle...WTH...someone built Oracle in 1900BC...holy crap. Anyone else have it built that early before or was I just unlucky?

I waited till after 500AD to attack anyone, so thatll go in the next spoiler. Before that, everyone and their brother decided to attack me. Noone got anywhere, but my mainland resources kept getting pillaged. Thats what really slowed me down. I stayed at war with someone allmost the entire game. I built Collosus and missed great Library by 3 turns. I was the idiot that traded Lit to the guy who built the Pyramids. He popped a Great Engineer and i missed the announcement. AAaaarrrggghhh.

As for my 3rd city on the island, I dont regret it. It whipped quite a few units and used the capitols mines when i wanted to run specialist in the capitol. I never did settle "Ireland".

 

[MarkM]

Founded York where everyone else did in 2470.

Well, allow me to be the exception to the rule then. I ended up more or less following my very first instincts, as posted at start of pregame thread when I conjectured it might be an island instead of the normal inland sea start position; see also this post -- I rushed to getting a galley+settler in order to grab a mainland location. I focused so tightly on it that I even founded my York 150 years before you did. In that second post I talked about trying to grab the spot to the north of the warrior starting location, to get gold and gems, but based upon my experience in running through early years a few times in Conquistador6's3 incredibly accurate test game (good job!!!) I realized that every turn counts and that maybe I'd want to at least look for something to the south rather than take the extra few turns to move the galley around to the other side of Britain (I settled in place & researched BW first, as I said I would & I think almost everyone else did too).

I still had some thoughts of trying to grab he copper to the NW of Scotland, but when I immediately saw the copper on the south coast that settled it (pun intended!) However when I landed my warrior down there that I sent along, I was surprised to find no cities founded yet to the south, so I moved my first settler an extra turn (two squares) off the coast to grab more territory/a better looking location. Long story short, you can see for yourself the very unanticipated city location for my York:

Spoiler :

You can also maybe see that speed was indeed of the essence to securing this location, Monty & Ramses quickly grabbed the coastal locations to the NE and NW of York, threatening to cut it off. I had gone on to research masonry after BW & sailing & had hooked up stone in London. hoping to avoid having my mainland borders of York being squeezed by these two cities + their capital cities to either side of me, I decided to build Stonehenge right away in York, for the +9 cultural it would give me there. As you can see from the shot above & this screenshot of the rankings of the top 5 cities, with York as #1 (!), I probably overdid it

Spoiler :

You can see I have the top score at this time by process of elimination (the screen save dialog box covers it unfortunately), though I still have only 3 cities and have not captured any. However despite that I'm not sure I did as well as I should of. I declared pre-2000bc wars against mehmed and stalin to poach workers & pillage for gold. That actually worked pretty well, using just a couple axeman & archers I grabbed maybe 5 workers & pillaged nearly every improved square both stalin & mehmed had. But when mehmed finally got chariots he wiped out the whole BEF (British Expeditionary Force) to a man, the last wounded archer unit getting wiped out whilst waiting to escape on the galley the next turn, at a coastal square I've decided to call Dunkirk

It was worth losing those ~4 units to grab 5 workers plus all that gold & incidentally stunt Stalin & Mehmed, but it did my diplomatic relations real damage (half the AIs have "you declared war on my friend"). I called off the wars not too long after the Dunkirk ignomy, but Brennus then launched a surprise attack through Monty's land -- which should not have been a surprise at all had I been paying attention -- and razed my fourth city built SW of York near the beavers, also capturing 4 of my workers, on the first turn of that war. KK and stalin then proceeded to pile on.

700 years later, at 500ad the wars agaisnt these three still rage on. York has never been seriously threatened but half the improved squares around it have been pillaged while I have had to fight off these stacks of death that each keeps moving in. Stalin actually had 15 units in one stack! Thankfully I have the tech superiority & get to fight their archers & axemen & swordsmen with macemen and longbow, but just around the 500ad cutoff Russian war elephants started to stream through Monty's land, which'll make things more dicey.

What else? As far as wonders, besides Stonehenge in York I built both GLs (great library and lighthouse) and national epic in London, Colossus in Nottingham (where everyone else's York is), also founded taoism there, and built national epic in York. I just missed building pyramids in Nottingham (by maybe 6 turns), also was beat to Parthenon there (though I was less than halfway on that one). Right now my game plan is to try to somehow expel the hordes of invaders that are pouring into the York region so I can rebuild improvements there. York is my production powerhouse, I have national epic and a military instructor there + lots of hammers, I really need to clear the area of enemy troops so I can start rebuilding improvements. But fighting 4 AIs at once, this has proven to be difficult to do. If I can pull it of I'll then go on the offensive & wipe out Brennus at least (who only has one city). I've had trebs since 350ad so I'm a good tech position to do it, but unfortunately I'm still stuck cranking out macemen and longbows in order to shatter the stacks of death they keep throwing at me. My biggest worry is that monty will turn against me, or even just cancel our open borders, if he does that will make it really hard to take on my enemies directly (since they all move through his lands). I've done my best to stay on his good side, despite the close border negatives, including declaring hinduism as my religion (he's teh founder). Hopefully that does piss off Ramses (Buddhist) too much!

 

[Oddible]

@da_Vinci: What is the mod that shows your unit status under their icons? (fort, heal, etc).

@MarkM: Holy cow a south settled city!! Going to be watching your reports since you seem to have gone the unusual direction (I didn't settle York on the mainland either but I went north, like most). Certainly a south settled city is going to change the scoreboard significantly. In almost every game listed it is Ramesses who is vying for lead (clearly due to the extra space he had down there). Looks like the map didn't allow for a clear expansion winner in the north (Mehmed almost last, Stalin / Khan / Shaka all about the same).

 

[budweiser]

@da_Vinci: In almost every game listed it is Ramesses who is vying for lead (clearly due to the extra space he had down there). Looks like the map didn't allow for a clear expansion winner in the north (Mehmed almost last, Stalin / Khan / Shaka all about the same).

In my game Ramsses was first to die. But not by me. He sent me a desparate plea for help pretty early on, which I ignored. The next thing I knew his score was zero.

 

[da_Vinci]

@da_Vinci: What is the mod that shows your unit status under their icons? (fort, heal, etc).

It must be one of the options in the HOF mod. I think it has been there by default since I downloaded the latest version. Well, maybe not by default, I think I turned everything on when I first started to use it. So look there and see if there is a switch for that.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

I'm still stuck cranking out macemen and longbows in order to shatter the stacks of death they keep throwing at me. My biggest worry is that monty will turn against me, or even just cancel our open borders, if he does that will make it really hard to take on my enemies directly (since they all move through his lands). I've done my best to stay on his good side, despite the close border negatives, including declaring hinduism as my religion (he's teh founder). Hopefully that does piss off Ramses (Buddhist) too much!

I like the novelty of your York placement, but wonder if you will come regret that long border with Monte. My beachhead in Beshbalik was easier to reinforce, I think.

Staying away from religion, and having a persistently large pop by emphasizing the food may have kept me at peace more than most. That and making a lot of archers early.

Are you using cats with collat damage promotions on those invading stacks? They are cheaper than maces (and longbows too?) and might allow you to accumulate some highly promoted maces and longbows, which could be key to turning the tide.

dV

 

[Zoolooman]

I'm surprised by the number of people who went for a mainland settlement. I just stayed on the island and waited for my first conquest to provide me with mainland cities and mainland workers. Once I'd hit macemen (CS slingshot enabled, of course), I just landed troops in friendly territory and stacked them up until I had enough to roll over Ramses.

He had to go, really. He was a powerful tech leader with low military power, and I couldn't help but ruin his picnic.

I guess I was lucky, however. There was metal on the island, and I was able to pull off the CS slingshot despite the risk of an early Oracle from Ramses, Saladin, or Montezuma. If either of these circumstances had turned out different, I would've been in a shoddy position.

 

[pigswill]

In a reasonable position at 5ad. Founded London on the spot, built York to the west in 2710bc. Founded Nottingham down south on the coast between Monte and Ramesses in 1100bc to grab copper. Once I'd got alphabet and currency I traded techs to everyone for cash which enabled me to run research at 100%. Started Glib about 900bc; Ramesses completed Glib in 730bc! Good enough reason to start a war; by 250bc I'd annihilated Ramesses picking up 3 cities, Temple of Solomon, Glib andToA in the process. Had a quick war with Monte, he captured one of my cities, I captured one of his.
Picked up philosophy (and Taoism) in 460bc. Got CS in 145bc and feudalism in 10bc.

 

[MarkM]

@MarkM: Holy cow a south settled city!! Going to be watching your reports since you seem to have gone the unusual direction (I didn't settle York on the mainland either but I went north, like most). Certainly a south settled city is going to change the scoreboard significantly. In almost every game listed it is Ramesses who is vying for lead (clearly due to the extra space he had down there). Looks like the map didn't allow for a clear expansion winner in the north (Mehmed almost last, Stalin / Khan / Shaka all about the same).

Ramses was still strong, but in my game it's MM, Caesar, I, and Stalin (oddly enough, since I totally pillaged his lands between 2000-1000bc) regularly above him. Ramses has a pretty strong tech though, and still a very nice position (Saladin to one side, who is very friendly, and me to the other ... very preoccupied)

I like the novelty of your York placement, but wonder if you will come regret that long border with Monte. My beachhead in Beshbalik was easier to reinforce, I think.

Staying away from religion, and having a persistently large pop by emphasizing the food may have kept me at peace more than most. That and making a lot of archers early.

Are you using cats with collat damage promotions on those invading stacks? They are cheaper than maces (and longbows too?) and might allow you to accumulate some highly promoted maces and longbows, which could be key to turning the tide.

Yeah, not to give anything away in this spoiler, but I did try to foreshadow ... I think declaring early wars against stalin & mehmend turned most AI diplomatic relations negative on me, and I'll emphasize that at 500AD I was at war with four other AIs. All through that monty border. Let me just say I doubt i'll be at the top of the leaderboard!

I think your ideas are good ones dV, cats & etc, and I did follow them to some degree, but let's just say maybe not on the scale necessary. I'm too much of a builder at heart, and I've never had to deal with stacks of that size, one coming right after the other, in a civ game before. I think I actually had a really good start there, but I got too passive/reactive in the middle game. I just dealt with the wars that were forced upon me, mostly defensively, instead of actively trying to settle those & do something like target Ramses or Monty directly. The effort put into the settling of the 4th city near York (which was sacked by around 200bc) was an unecessary & ill-conceived bleed of resources too -- if I was gonna try to settle a 4th city, it should have been earlier & on "Ireland." I came to that realization on my own, but stupidly only after sleeping on it, suffering from "one more turn-ism" I played late into one night without ever really stepping back & thinking strategically instead of tactically. I do now often have a very focused starting strategy -- thanks to the pregame threads encouraging it -- but usually dally later.

 

[lightsedge]

I knew it was going to be an island!

After several test games, I went with a plan EEO came up with:

My opening research path was: Mysticism, Polytheism, Masonry, The Wheel, Priesthood, Writing, Mathematics, Code of Laws, Civil Service (via Oracle about 1500 BC) , Alphabet.

Some remarks here:

• The shortest path towards CS slingshot is with Meditation instead of Polytheism and without The Wheel. But, of course, the latter is necessary to get Marble and to let some work to the worker. As for Polytheism, it's more likely to found a religion, is better valuable when getting Alphabet and opens the door to Great Library via Literature.

• I bypass without hesitation BW. I can acquire it easily by trade when necessary. Instead of 90 you get with 3 forests in the beginning, I get 330 with the same forests for building the Great Library thanks Marble, Mathematics and Civil Service ... (it could even have been 363 with Organized Religion).

I knew I had a good chance of succeeding, because the sea would protect me from the AI while I teched. I built work boats while growing London, building a worker somewhere in between. York was founded in 2230 BC (turn 59) south of the Gems so I could share the clams. I learned Mathematics in 1300 BC (turn 90), finishing the Oracle on the same turn to get Civil Service. I didn't go for Stonehenge, to delay the AI from building the Oracle. Alphabet was learned in 985 BC, which I traded around for 9 techs, including Iron Working, discovering iron on the island. I discovered literature in 865 BC, and built the Great Library in York in 625 BC. Maybe I should have put it in London instead, where I settled a Great Scientist in 640 BC. I founded Nottingham on Ireland, although I probably shouldn't have. That city had no food and no hammers, especially when Egyptian culture took the grassland hills.

By 595 BC, Confucianism had spread around a bit, so I converted. I was building up an invasion force, so I wasn't afraid of the negative relations hit. I researched Machinery in 415 BC, so I got Macemen. I used a single galley to ferry troops north into my territory near the gems.

Confucian nations:
Mehmed
Shaka
Wang Kon
Stalin
Ragnar
Me

Wars so far:
Stalin and Khan in 1720 BC
Mansa and Ragnar in 850 BC
Wang Kon and Shaka in 445 BC
Montezuma and Mansa in 340 BC
Stanlin and Khan in 310 BC
Tokugawa and Ragnar in 310 BC

I take the opportunity to join in on a war, declaring on Tokugawa in 220 BC. I think my reasoning was that everyone else in the area was Confucian, and thus, "friendly". Moreover, all neighbors were preoccupied already. I capture Osaka in 40 BC, but Ragnar declares war on me the next turn! This was pretty weird, since I was at war with his enemy. I guess he really wanted Osaka. I, on the other hand, really wanted Kyoto for its production, but it was too well defended (probably because of its production). Shaka decides to join in on the fun by declaring on me in 125 AD (even though he's Confucian as well ). I don't worry about him much as he's pretty far away, keeping only unit or two to guard the gems north of the island. But to be sure, I get Wang to DoW Shaka. I make peace with Toku, and focus my efforts on Ragnar, bringing Mehmed in as an ally. I think it's important to bring other civs into your wars. It helps relations, and more importantly, prevents them getting bribed to attack YOU.

I capture Ragnar's last city in 425 AD. I gift one city to Mansa (Intending to take it back later), since his borders are too close. I then turn my now larger army against Toku. Stalin is overwhelming Khan at this point. Since he's now my neighbor, I'll have to either take him out or have him attack someone else.

Teching:
Traded for Monarchy, Calendar, and Horseback Riding in 85 BC. I researched Paper in 40 BC and traded maps around for cash and just to see more. Philosphy in 95 AD, founding Taoism. Feudalism in 200 AD. Education in 470 AD. I'm ahead in tech at this point, and decide to go for Gunpower before Liberalism to get Chemistry.

 

[ungy]

Settled in place, decided to go space from the beginning. With that in mind I took pyramids over the oracle or SH. I was worried that with so little space the AI would get to wonders early. In retrospect I think that was an error and slowed me down too much for the value. The AI did not build wonders early (although Ramesess took Feud from the Oracle).

Russia founded St. Pt. 2 NW of York and it had no culture. I thought I could flip it by founding COL in York and I even built an early monastary to speed the process along. However, it still remained 100% Russian when it got in my culture ring--can anyone enlighten me as to why? BTW I flipped the Mali city in Ireland.

I continued building wonders--the Glib and the Col since I wasn't planning early astro and was working a reasonable number of sea tiles.

The AI had lots of units, and the culture forced me to deal with 2 AI so I didn't get rolling until 200AD with mace and cats which cut through the AI but it all took some time. At 500 my armies are clearly going to take what I want--just a question of pace and I am good tech wise but slow militarily.

Since I was planning a long game Mansa was my most important ally and he was fortunately doing well.

 

[playshogi]

This is the first game since Warlords came out that I played with vassal states on. So what happens? Civ A asks me to join war against Civ B. Because I want the shared struggle diplo points and civ B is very weak, I agree. Apparently, on the very same turn, Civ B then capitulates to Civ A and I'm at war with Civ A. Maybe this should be posted in the bug forum?