Wu Zetian

[revengeofmakno]

As a chinese, I indeed want to know whether Li shiming who building the great Tang Dynast is famous outside East-asian culture?

In a word, No

Most people outside that region don't know much of anything of Chinese history. You could tell them almost anything and they might believe it.

There are a few people who have heard the names of some specific dynasties and some VERY general sketchy patterns, such as;

China is an old civilization and was centred on the two large river valleys and there were some terra cotta soldiers buried in tombs.
The Tang were a strong dynasty,
The Song were weak and were taken down by the Mongols who were in control when Marco Polo came around,
The Ming got rid of the Mongols, sailed around and then burned their fleet and lost the chance to be a world super-power.
Later the Qing came along and pushed the borders out but then declined to a very weak state and were pushed around by the Japanese and the Western Powers,
A "republic" of some kind was formed in 1911-1912 by Sun Yat-sen but he later died and Chiang was not as good as him and thus China continued in a weak state until the Japanese invaded in a big way. Chiang and Mao fought eachother as much as the Japanese.
Mao overthrew the Nationalists by 1949 and attacked the UN forces in Korea. He had trouble with the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution tore things apart.
After Mao died, Deng took over and moved China into more conventional economic development.

Don't expect more than that in terms of history even from well educated people.
Anyone who knows remembers the names of specific emperors other than Kublai Khan (and Genghis obviously) is very rare.

 

[swilhelm73]

Carthage probably should have more leaders. Hannibal was an exceptional general - but Carthage was a major power obviously before even the first Punic War.

So perhaps
Hannibal Mago - Fin, Agg
Himilco the Navigator - Fin, Org

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

While, I am puzzled who is Si wangmu? Perharps you mean Xiwangmu? I see the wikipedia but still know nothing about her.

Si Wang-mu is a character from a couple of Orson Scott Card books that take place 3000 years in the future. She got her name from "The Royal Mother of the West," who I believe was an ancient Chinese goddess, but that was only metioned very briefly.

Like I said... nothing of real substance to add.

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

In a word, No

Most people outside that region don't know much of anything of Chinese history. You could tell them almost anything and they might believe it.

There are a few people who have heard the names of some specific dynasties and some VERY general sketchy patterns, such as;

China is an old civilization and was centred on the two large river valleys and there were some terra cotta soldiers buried in tombs.
The Tang were a strong dynasty,
The Song were weak and were taken down by the Mongols who were in control when Marco Polo came around,
The Ming got rid of the Mongols, sailed around and then burned their fleet and lost the chance to be a world super-power.
Later the Qing came along and pushed the borders out but then declined to a very weak state and were pushed around by the Japanese and the Western Powers,
A "republic" of some kind was formed in 1911-1912 by Sun Yat-sen but he later died and Chiang was not as good as him and thus China continued in a weak state until the Japanese invaded in a big way. Chiang and Mao fought eachother as much as the Japanese.
Mao overthrew the Nationalists by 1949 and attacked the UN forces in Korea. He had trouble with the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution tore things apart.
After Mao died, Deng took over and moved China into more conventional economic development.

Don't expect more than that in terms of history even from well educated people.
Anyone who knows remembers the names of specific emperors other than Kublai Khan (and Genghis obviously) is very rare.

Well good. Now I don't feel so bad.

 

[TLF]

As to post #21.

I doubt that most people even know that much.

It's surprising how many westerners don't even know the difference between the Chinese and the Japanese.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

In a word, No

Most people outside that region don't know much of anything of Chinese history. You could tell them almost anything and they might believe it.

There are a few people who have heard the names of some specific dynasties and some VERY general sketchy patterns, such as;

China is an old civilization and was centred on the two large river valleys and there were some terra cotta soldiers buried in tombs.
The Tang were a strong dynasty,
The Song were weak and were taken down by the Mongols who were in control when Marco Polo came around,
The Ming got rid of the Mongols, sailed around and then burned their fleet and lost the chance to be a world super-power.
Later the Qing came along and pushed the borders out but then declined to a very weak state and were pushed around by the Japanese and the Western Powers,
A "republic" of some kind was formed in 1911-1912 by Sun Yat-sen but he later died and Chiang was not as good as him and thus China continued in a weak state until the Japanese invaded in a big way. Chiang and Mao fought eachother as much as the Japanese.
Mao overthrew the Nationalists by 1949 and attacked the UN forces in Korea. He had trouble with the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution tore things apart.
After Mao died, Deng took over and moved China into more conventional economic development.

Don't expect more than that in terms of history even from well educated people.
Anyone who knows remembers the names of specific emperors other than Kublai Khan (and Genghis obviously) is very rare.

Whether or not to even include Qing is debatable, since the Manchus were traditionally considered as outsiders.

Of all the Chinese emperors, I'd say only Qin Shi Huang has some meaning to the overall Chinese culture. As for the modern times, we can consider Deng Xiao Ping and Sun Yat Sen. I'd say the former's especially notable as he rescued China from the 'old communist' regime and initiated its trek towards being a great economic power.

 

[TLF]

Is Qing pronounced King or Ching or some other way?

Though I think those may be Cantonese pronunciations.

 

[swilhelm73]

Of all the Chinese emperors, I'd say only Qin Shi Huang has some meaning to the overall Chinese culture. As for the modern times, we can consider Deng Xiao Ping and Sun Yat Sen. I'd say the former's especially notable as he rescued China from the 'old communist' regime and initiated its trek towards being a great economic power.

That's a good point. Generally Civ4 gives civilization strong leaders from history and Deng (Organized, Industrious?) would then be a MUCH better choice then Mao for a modern Chinese leader.

Of course the Celts have Boudica who is best known for losing her minor kingdom and then a war, so they certainly aren't consistent.

 

[revengeofmakno]

As to post #21.
I doubt that most people even know that much.
It's surprising how many westerners don't even know the difference between the Chinese and the Japanese.

That was my point, most know nothing, those who know something tend to know what I posted but it is a low percentage.

Is Qing pronounced King or Ching or some other way?

"q" is similar to "ch" but not exactly. The best I can explain it is the breath is not pushed out as much as with "ch".

That's a good point. Generally Civ4 gives civilization strong leaders from history and Deng (Organized, Industrious?) would then be a MUCH better choice then Mao for a modern Chinese leader.

Well, I am generally opposed to having any 20th century leaders in there. Having said that, Mao vs Deng is a tough call. Contemporary China is a product of both of them. Both are in a sense, "strong" leaders. Both are tyrants but Mao was much more bloodthirsty and egotistical.
By going to extremes, Mao removed overt foreign influence, swept out a lot of old structure, and simultaneously discredited his approach and that ironically made it easier for Deng to put his own agenda into action later. One big question is what would have happened to Chinese development if Deng had been in a strong enough position to be leader in 1949.

 

[G-Max]

"q" is similar to "ch" but not exactly. The best I can explain it is the breath is not pushed out as much as with "ch".

So... it's pronounced "sh"?

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

So... it's pronounced "sh"?

I'd guess something like a Ch bitten off 3/4 of the way through

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

So... it's pronounced "sh"?

No, it's like "ching" without the the "h" sound.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Both are tyrants but Mao was much more bloodthirsty and egotistical.

In Deng's case, it's necessary for him to be a tyrant. Even after the Gang of Four was wiped out, the communist part was still far from stable.

By going to extremes, Mao removed overt foreign influence, swept out a lot of old structure, and simultaneously discredited his approach and that ironically made it easier for Deng to put his own agenda into action later. One big question is what would have happened to Chinese development if Deng had been in a strong enough position to be leader in 1949.

Then the following probably wouldn't have happened:
- Great Leap Forward
- Cultural Revolution
- Sino-Soviet Split

He was highly critical of the first two and the third was caused by Mao's vile ego. In some ways, Deng was China's Khrushchev.

 

[Jerrymander]

I'd guess something like a Ch bitten off 3/4 of the way through

It's like saying ch when you're mad. It's a more forceful sound than ch, but has the same 'basic' sound.

Ah, Mandarin, a language where no matter what you say you sound angry.

 

[revengeofmakno]

Ah, Mandarin, a language where no matter what you say you sound angry.

Can't say I personally buy into that. Cantonese is the street fighting, angry market haggling language. Mandarin sounds smooth and sophisticated in comparison.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Boudica has very few credentials as a great leader of a powerful people. There is just some kind of romantic nostalgia about her and she was in England.

In her day, Boudica was considered to be nothing more than a barbarian semi-outlaw by the Romans. I don't believe the "Warrior Queen" rubbish, but if any of the accounts are credible at all, she did stand up to Roman rule, and led her people in revolt until she was finally dispatched.

That, at least is worthy of honorable mention, and if there are going to be any female leaders in the game, she is at least a reasonable candidate for inclusion. Her status as a leader is no less valid than that of Shaka, whom you may recall, also lead a tribe against "oppressors."

 

[Ataxerxes]

In her day, Boudica was considered to be nothing more than a barbarian semi-outlaw by the Romans. I don't believe the "Warrior Queen" rubbish, but if any of the accounts are credible at all, she did stand up to Roman rule, and led her people in revolt until she was finally dispatched.

That, at least is worthy of honorable mention, and if there are going to be any female leaders in the game, she is at least a reasonable candidate for inclusion. Her status as a leader is no less valid than that of Shaka, whom you may recall, also lead a tribe against "oppressors."

I don't understand the statement that Shaka led a tribe against oppressors. At the start, the Zulu would have seen some neighbors as "oppressors", but Shaka was more of a conqueror that Boudica. His kingdom did survive his death and the British only showed up long after Shaka was gone.

Boudica certainly is worthy of honorable mention, struggling against one of the most powerful Civs in the world at that time.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I don't understand the statement that Shaka led a tribe against oppressors. At the start, the Zulu would have seen some neighbors as "oppressors", but Shaka was more of a conqueror that Boudica. His kingdom did survive his death and the British only showed up long after Shaka was gone.

Boudica certainly is worthy of honorable mention, struggling against one of the most powerful Civs in the world at that time.

A little too much wine last night, and I wound up getting Shaka's facts a little mixed. Thank you for the correction.

 

[username804]

About Chinese leaders, I still play a game called "Emperor" which evolved from Caesar and Pharaoh as a city building game from the now departed Sierra games.

I liked the game and it's like Civ in that it teaches Chinese history as the game progresses.

So at least one person in Mighty America knows a little about Chinese history.

Not bad for a Gweilo

 

[username804]

That's a good point. Generally Civ4 gives civilization strong leaders from history and Deng (Organized, Industrious?) would then be a MUCH better choice then Mao for a modern Chinese leader.

Of course the Celts have Boudica who is best known for losing her minor kingdom and then a war, so they certainly aren't consistent.

I'm sure that Sid is a nice guy and means no one any disrespect, but in the end, it's just a game and he's in it to sell.

You can always mod the rulers if you dont like them and make them into who you'd rather they be