WW2-Global

[antoine]

The historical reality:

On a military point of view, Hitler believes a far more in air and land weapons than on U-boats. U-boats were an economical weapon even if it’s true that U-boats have been a serious treat for an Allied victory at the middle of the war.. ( In his madness, Hitler has always underestimated the industrial power of the USA and even that of the SU )

The game :

U-boats and all other strike first weapons are a joke for a human player :
- Who know how to destroy them even before they can move
- Who regroups its units on one stack, defended by strong units

On stupid AI, U-boats are far more dangerous

 

[andis-1]

Week 36 AI turn -
at sea: lost 5 U-Boats, Spanish CL runs into my U-Boat stack ---> war
on land: French started huge counterattack! They allmost managed to kil one of my armies ( yes they u heard me, they attacked armies!), and two others were badly damaged. Good thing was, that French lost almost all of their tanks . They allso sent lots of units towards Brussels.
Week 37 -
on land: Bombing Paris, so far only damaged some bombers. Panzerattack to Paris Fails - lost Panzer. Counterattack near Brussels - lost 1 SS inf. and 8 inf. killed 9 French inf. and flak
at sea: lost Graf Spee when attacking CL!
some list's
what I've sunk - 3 Carriers, about 7 DD's, 5 Cl, 2 BB, casulties - 12 U-Boats
Week 37 AI turn -
Lost 8 U-Boats due british DD's, Italy DW on Turkey
Week 38 -
at sea: lost about 15 DD's and 5 U-Boats when attackin stack of British DD's, But their casulties were even bigger.
on land: Attacked British airfield near Paris and Destroyed 10 planes
Week 38 AI turn -
lost 8 U-Boats and Gneisenauclass BB , managed to destroy dome British DD's on defence
Week 39 -
at sea: lost 6 U-Boats and 1 Gneisenauclass BB, killed 1 BB
Bombing Paris, and now it's starting to have some effect to defenders. And, after furious attack of all my armies + Panzers + some infantry, Paris falls
Lost 12 inf, when attacking Brest, but took it.

And couple minor bugs: Kjosti Kallio should be Kyösti Kallio, and Tampere Should be Turku. That's it for now, more coming soon.

 

[Bob1475]

British ver 1.4 - Emperor

First let me state that generally I am a "builder" and that may have hurt me here. I wil try again.

I am being overrun by Japanese in the South - they have taken three Indian cities and I simply don't have enough units. Especially since I am facing a 23 unit Italian contingent at Meshed accompanied by some Finn infantry and miscellaneous German units. On top of that the Germans tore through the French in Turkey, took Damascus and now I face 12 units (fortunately no armor!) around Jerusalem. They don't attack but move to the city least defended.

Italian marines have emerged from East Africa and I have managed to hold them off.

My first reinforcements are on the way from England but that will take too long. (Why reduce transport capacity? I thought we had that argument - I thought 8 was fine - now 6?)

I see now that you have strengthened the Japanese marines to 20/10! I thought they were fine where they were in 1.3 - did you perhaps drop the blitz?

In any event I have no units to stand up to them until I get some Matildas built - which will be too late I fear.

Russians wiped out the Swedes and also took Rejyavik! First time for that - a task force all the way around from Murmansk.

The Germans are not making any further progress in Europe but I now know why - they decided to go South along with everyone else. Now in week 15 of 1940 Russia has declared war on the Allies which essentially means me. Things look hopeless.

I will need to check to see relative unit strengths to come up with a good strategy for Britain which I have never played well. I have no problems with the Uboats. The AI loves your destroyer flotillas as it seems to be a favorite unit to build. My BBs still destroy them.

I fear that you may have overreacted to difficulties of playing the Japanese. If the US will not be active in the Pacific then the UK cannot stand. I will start again to see if a more agressive approach will win. Seems that I must take out the Thais early if the Chinese are to slow down the Japanese.

As I said, this might just be a reflection of poor play on my part but things seem a little unbalanced. Maybe the Thais as neutrals was better?

 

[Rocoteh]

Adler,

Thank you for the report.

The Otsus are a bug. Will be corrected in version 1.6.

The same holds true for the Type XXI.

Thank you for reporting it.

Rocoteh

 

[antoine]

Great Britain 1.4 emperor 1939 week 49

- drafted like a mad to defend my new and precious Turkish territories.
As always, place chip defensive units on mountains

- Germans and SU are bombing Istanbul with a never seen hate.

- Istanbul has been the grave of 30+ Russian planes this turn ! ( Thanks spitfire and dd )

- Germans are assaulting Istanbul and Paris with panzers and are humiliated by British infantry.

- I'm also helping my French brothers with the troops of my victorious Spain campaign

- I think the Italians want to surrender.

- some relieve for Honk-Kong because the Japanese fleet move to Port Moresby. Port Moresby will be the Japaneese Verdun.

- Damn, this game is really funs with the ubiquitous Brits !

 

[Sasebo]

1.5 already?!! Sheesh, it hasn't even been a day. At least I was ready to start a new one...

That 1.4 version took 7 minutes to download; 60 minutes to set up a game. I really hope you have a save game ready by tonight Rocoteh.

I agree with Antoine, the UK gets to fight all over the globe so it must be very interesting. If I keep seeing people say UK is tough I may reconsider and have a go with them myself. I am going to try Germany this next time however, since I owe it to Adler17 since I am always saying he wants to make the Uboats too strong without any experience playing with them. That, and I want to be the one kicking sand in people's faces for a change.

I agree with KristiB on the elite issue for starting Uboats for now. I don't think any amount of training could be a substitute for actual war experience. Most of the early Ace Uboats were scoring their victories against merchant ships remember. It just does not make sense to make them elites to start considering that in this game engine they will only fight Warships.

Now, I'm off to download 1.5...

edit: Rocoteh, on that download page it still says version 1.4. I assume you just forgot to update that part or...?

 

[KristiB]

"Although I agree with the figures KristiB is posting his conclusions are wrong:" - Adler

Firstly, I'm a she.

Secondly, those aren't my conclusions but those of someone who has researched Uboat use extensively.

And again, regardless which historical view one believe in, there has to be a balence between historical accuracy and game balance. Having too many elite Uboats to start the scenario would lead to Germany being too easy to play for a human player. Don't you like a challenge?

 

[William Mitchel]

My second post re Britian in ver. 1.3 - turns 11 thru 25 and a post-mortem.
By this point the Brits have built approx 150 workers (the face of the empire is changing, you can see it iver the next 20 turns) and a slew of temples, etc. factories under construction in several large cities. grinding away in lybia.

Turn 11: Paris falls. Greece goes to peace with all, including Ger and It.
Turn 12: Brest falls.
Turn 13: Molestation of Hong Kong continues. Only 1 maginot hex left, and three french cities plus corsica. Allies go to peace with Spain.
Turn 14: Brits take Tripoli - no italian ports left in Lybia.
Turn 15: Hungarians show up in India near Cashmere.
Turn 16: Lyon falls.
Turn 17: Italy and Turks at peace.
Turn 18: Shaken down by the USSR - one look at the map convinces me that it is better to pay. Experimented with mobilization at this point - saw that Intel Wonder was the only thing left that i would not be able to build. Beginning to think i missed the boat on mobilizing.
Turn 19: Noticed that week counter was now showing week 2. Victory screen was now also selectable. No V button before. USSR/US at peace. Italians take Djbouti. They are making marines in central africa and these are Very potent.
Turn 20: my trades from first turn are beginning to expire - must monitor and renew - keep countries was declaring war on me and keep income up. 18 Italians show up in northern india!! So do some Finns!
Turn 21: Brits attempt to re-inforce India with bombers and armor.
Turn 22: Hong Kong falls.
Turn 23: 8 German Panzers, german army and another 10 italians, some of them marines, show up in india!!! Japs appear along eastern border - no DOW with Thailand, just walked thru. Marines and Armor also. Brits conscript all available and try to get into india.
Turn 24: More german tanks, plus romanians now in india - one Bulgarian for good measure. All axis countries now have ground units in india!! (Do i sound hysterical?)
Turn 25: US DOW on USSR. Axis keep infiltrating into India - will not attack strongpoints at the border and wipe themselves out. Japs take Rangoon. France still alive.
Game stopped here. My counting may be off be a turn or two, but you get the idea.
Observations:
1. The AI looks for weakness, and India fits that bill nicely. Everyone, including the russians, can reach it without having to fight their way thru. The prize is too tempting - germans even stopped attack in france in order to help grab it. I could have beefed it up more, but for how long? Bottom line is that i did not have any ground units that cound defeat a marine/armor attack. My artillery (half-dozen units)did not reduce them fast enough. They simply moved to weak interior targets and it was all over. I am going to try again with ver 1.5 to see if i can beef it up.
2. Must hit africa hard on first turn and keep going. i wasted too much time concentrating artillery and armor. should have brought bombers down earlier. need to take it out and get over to india. one thing i did right was prevent italian reinforcement of north africa.
3. if axis have free shot at india, they could swing south to egypt just as easily, with same problems for me. i see that this happened to another brit player.
4 big picture: for the brits, only england and canada are relatively safe in the long run. Can they win the game if reduced to these two areas? If brits try to defend africa and india with major investment, and lose all, are they fatally weakened for the rest of it? US and USSR not in any hurry to mess it up - althought US many have fought the jap navy early on.

I will try again, but my gut tells me that easy access to all but home island and canada is fatal.

 

[Rocoteh]

Great Britain Emperor 1.4 week 46 1939 (turn 10)

- conquered all Turkey, Spain and Lisbon. SU just declared war on me, moving troops to Turkey. Germans wants Turkey too...

- Big battle for Honk-Kong, thing the situation is hopeless for GB since I've only seen Japaneese navy in Pacific. May be there is a problem with US Navy.
Where are they ? Can't find them ! I'v seen a lot of US boats in Atlantic, often going North and after that going for Europe.


- With very heavy Allies naval concentrations in Atlantic and North Sea, Axis navy has been completly wiped out.

- No city razed

- France is a lot more aggressive

- Hope US Navy is coming to save me in SE Asia

- GB is very fun to play, a lot of things to do, and a very high industrial potential.

antoine,

The US Navy is probably in the Arctic waters. They will however
be stopped by Ice-barriers near Alaska. In version 1.6 I will place more
Ice-barriers near Baffin Island to stop this move.

Its very good news that no city have been razed.

I am glad to hear that Britain is interesting to play.
There have been few British playtests earlier.

"Damn, this game is really funs with the ubiquitous Brits !" antoine

I am glad to hear that.

Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

America -- 1.4

After looking over all the changes, I conclude that the Pacific is lost. So, I pull all my destroyers and most of my subs into Manila, only sacrificing a few to destroy the fleet by Wake. Everytime Manila grows, I draft an infantry. I have also re-based a couple of fighters in an attempt to keep Manila secure until I can build up.

My navy has been seperated into 8 fleets on the West Coast(and Hawaii) and 4 on the East (including a fleet at Panama). Each fleet has at least 1 Battleship at the lead. They have been placed in strategic locations in an attempt to stop any sneak attacks by the Japanese. I figure it will be at least a year before I can do anything anywhere, and my mainland is lightly defended until then. Last thing I need is a transport with Marines showing up unexpected.

As for my build up, turn 1 had every domestic city build a worker. Turn 2 had the larger cities building workers, while the smaller ones switched over to infrastructure. I also dealt the French rubber I believe for 45GPT (a discount since they would have given me 60) in an attempt to keep them competitive vs the Germans. Including that, I am making 60GPT with research at 60%. Banks and Universities are top building priorities right now(after necessary Aqueducts/Hospitals of course) in an attempt to improve both figures.

On turn 4 I believe, I spot a Japanese fleet with transport heading down my Phillipines island chain. Since Japanese AI seems to love Davao, I figure that is where they are heading (not big enough to draft yet, and completely undefended). So, I gift it to the British Japanese took it the next turn.

My strategy will be similar here as it was in 1.3. After infrastructure is complete, build Marines like crazy and take Mexico. This time however, I will have to draft Infantry to back that up, as well as build some heavy artillery. I like the new stats on the Marines as a war stack has to comprise other units now. Very well done here.

allin1joe,

I think your strategy is good. Attacking early as US in this version should
not be a good idea. I think this is more realistic though.
Building up the infrastructure as you do, should also be a good initial
strategy.

I am glad to hear that you like the new stats for the Marines.
Looking forward to follow this playtest.

Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Jadetorc]

Lots of nice changes - Roco, you are quite accomodating! Cheers for the hard work.

Quick observations from Comrade General Pushkin:
1) I still believe the Free Support count to be way too high
2) The sub/uboat bug can be gotten around with "Hidden Nationality" set for all undersea units
3) Preference: 6-city Iran+ was preferable to a 1-city Iceland.IMO

Things I edited right away: Irkutsk and Lake Baikal - there is no route around it except in the south, which is where the Trans-Siberian railway goes; The Pyrennes (mountain squares with no roads or railroads, each with a fortress and a Spaniard)

Summary of Soviet 1939:
Taking advantage of the excessive free troops, I gave presents to Germany and Japan and traded with the US and set every Soviet city except 9 to produce workers for the whole rest of the year. Moscow, Leningrad, Kiev, Stalingrad, Sverdlovsk, Chelyabinsk, Magnitogorsk and Vladivostok built industry. Amsterdam razed, lots of sub-generated DoW's. Germany took Poland, Brussels, and Paris. France captured La Coruna, Britain took Lisbon(!) and 2 eastern Turk cities, Japan is crushing China - Chunking taken by turn ~45 '39 - only 5 Commie cities and 6 Nat'l cities remain. Japan may be too strong. By turn 48 I have used up all free troops, switch Odessa and Sevastopol to self-improve and cannibalize the Soviet Black Sea subs to build a building every turn. On turn 51, I get hosed by the sub bug as a HUGE American (~75 ships, 10+ BB, 4 CV's, etc.) navy heads across the Marshalls and runs right into my Pacific submarine fleet. They kill 20+ subs in the opening salvo (for 2 DDs lost ... ) I go back to the editor to fix the stupid submarines......

Net result by Jan 1, '40: as the Soviets I have 372 workers absolute paving the Motherland(for about 50 gpt). 80% of European Russia is rails(!) and every city is on the tracks (inc. Ulaan Baator); I haven't had a single combat except with the American fleets on that screw-up; I haven't had to build a single unit (and think the Infantry generator is unnecessary); and have 7 infantry and 7 planes in every city on the German border. Now I switch every city to production, and soon it will be 7 MGs in every city ....

Summary - workers are too cheap and way too fast. Even rails, as Russia, are done in 1 turn with a stack of 17 workers (or 50 for forests/hills). Happiness improvements have always seemed too cheap - I prefer to see a real cost associated with them. Russia shouldn't start with 139 Soviet submarines ... just like Germany should start with exactly 15 uboats (the number that were IRL commissioned).

Anywho. Some spots just have too many cities. After I invade Finland I plan on razing Tallinn and Helsinki, and won't lose a single piece of territory. Maybe this scenario needs a bigger map

-b

 

[Rocoteh]

I have briefly looked over the changes and here's what i think:

1. Destroyer Flotilla and S-Boat Flotilla have bombardment way too high (higher than a Battleship). One can build tons of S-Boats as they're cheap and use it as naval artillery. And i thought S-Boats were supposed to be very fast, high on attack and low on defense.

2. US Marines are reduced too much. At 14.10.2 The 1939 variant are useless now and the 1942 version comes too late and are weak too for that period. I think they should have very good stats but also very high price (or auto-produced in low numbers).

3. HMG's should be much better in defense in my opinion. There are tons of choices on offense for every nation but little options for good defense. I find it a bit unbalanced now. At every technological stage the best available defensive unit should have a defense value comparable with the attack value of the best offensive unit.

4. Germans' 88's are too cheap. At 22 defense they are the best defender for a long time . Also i think their air defense could be better.

5. Soviet MRD is now useless. Should be tougher or cheaper.

6. Overall tanks are too powerful in defense. They should be used as offensive weapons only and be vulnerable on defense. Infantry and antitanks would be more appropriate for this job and should have better defense than tanks. This would also allow escorting infantry to be the first unit attacked in a stack by the enemy.

7. I believe the capacity of 2 for an army was a better option in v1.3. Makes the game more challenging for humans. Leaders appear quite often. In my 1.3 soviet game i have around 15 armies mid 1941.

I also noticed a small bug: Britain have a german infantry in Malta.

mircea74,

1. The naval system in CIV3 is oversimplified. One should remember that
the Destroyer-flotilla represents 8 destroyers. Its possible that the
bombard factor should be somewhat lower.
When it comes to S-boats, each unit represents 6 ships.
Giving them high move would make long-range raids possible.
Since these ships were coastal defence units that would not be
realistic.
Note though: Should these units not function in a realistic way
I will remove them in the next version. Again the game-engine is
the problem.

2. The point is here that it should be hard to produce many Marine
divisions. Peak strenght for US Army during WW2 was 90 divisions.
There were never more than 6 Marine divisions.

3. On HMG units. I still think its a border case whether they shall be
included or not. Its hard to give them relevant stats.

4. On the 88`s: Yes I think you are right.

5. One should remember that they can be upgraded in 1941 though.

6. Its possible you are right.

7. On the Army issue: Notes have been taken.

I will correct the Malta-bug.

Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

andis-1,

"Week 36 AI turn -
at sea: lost 5 U-Boats, Spanish CL runs into my U-Boat stack ---> war
on land: French started huge counterattack! They allmost managed to kil one of my armies ( yes they u heard me, they attacked armies!)," andis-1

That is a surprise!

"at sea: lost Graf Spee when attacking CL!" andis-1

Hard luck.

Overall a good start I think.
Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

British ver 1.4 - Emperor

First let me state that generally I am a "builder" and that may have hurt me here. I wil try again.

I am being overrun by Japanese in the South - they have taken three Indian cities and I simply don't have enough units. Especially since I am facing a 23 unit Italian contingent at Meshed accompanied by some Finn infantry and miscellaneous German units. On top of that the Germans tore through the French in Turkey, took Damascus and now I face 12 units (fortunately no armor!) around Jerusalem. They don't attack but move to the city least defended.

Italian marines have emerged from East Africa and I have managed to hold them off.

My first reinforcements are on the way from England but that will take too long. (Why reduce transport capacity? I thought we had that argument - I thought 8 was fine - now 6?)

I see now that you have strengthened the Japanese marines to 20/10! I thought they were fine where they were in 1.3 - did you perhaps drop the blitz?

In any event I have no units to stand up to them until I get some Matildas built - which will be too late I fear.

Russians wiped out the Swedes and also took Rejyavik! First time for that - a task force all the way around from Murmansk.

The Germans are not making any further progress in Europe but I now know why - they decided to go South along with everyone else. Now in week 15 of 1940 Russia has declared war on the Allies which essentially means me. Things look hopeless.

I will need to check to see relative unit strengths to come up with a good strategy for Britain which I have never played well. I have no problems with the Uboats. The AI loves your destroyer flotillas as it seems to be a favorite unit to build. My BBs still destroy them.

I fear that you may have overreacted to difficulties of playing the Japanese. If the US will not be active in the Pacific then the UK cannot stand. I will start again to see if a more agressive approach will win. Seems that I must take out the Thais early if the Chinese are to slow down the Japanese.

As I said, this might just be a reflection of poor play on my part but things seem a little unbalanced. Maybe the Thais as neutrals was better?

Bob1475,

Thank you for the report.

Being a builder should not hurt when playing Britain.

Japanese forces in India. Japan-AI seems to be more aggressive now.
I have changed my mind concerning transports: All nations involved in WW2 were
always short on transport-capacity. Building up such capacity
was to cheap in 1.3.

The Japanese Marine unit was to weak compared to other Marines in 1.3.

Interesting that AI likes the Destroyer-flotillas.

Further playtesting will show Japan now is to strong or not.
One should remember though that the only units added for Japan
are static units.

Welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

1.5 already?!! Sheesh, it hasn't even been a day. At least I was ready to start a new one...

That 1.4 version took 7 minutes to download; 60 minutes to set up a game. I really hope you have a save game ready by tonight Rocoteh.

I agree with Antoine, the UK gets to fight all over the globe so it must be very interesting. If I keep seeing people say UK is tough I may reconsider and have a go with them myself. I am going to try Germany this next time however, since I owe it to Adler17 since I am always saying he wants to make the Uboats too strong without any experience playing with them. That, and I want to be the one kicking sand in people's faces for a change.

I agree with KristiB on the elite issue for starting Uboats for now. I don't think any amount of training could be a substitute for actual war experience. Most of the early Ace Uboats were scoring their victories against merchant ships remember. It just does not make sense to make them elites to start considering that in this game engine they will only fight Warships.

Now, I'm off to download 1.5...

edit: Rocoteh, on that download page it still says version 1.4. I assume you just forgot to update that part or...?

Sasebo,

You can still play 1.4 without problem.
When a major bug was reported in 1.4: Bucharest as capital in
Germany I wanted to correct that direct. Then that is the only
difference between 1.4 and 1.5.
Again: If you do not care about that bug you can play 1.4 without
problem.
Saved games for 1.5 have already been added for Germany, Soviet,
Britain and US. More will follow.

On the download page: I will send a PM to Thunderfall and ask if
he can remove the version-text. I think it can be confusing, since
you are downloading the new versions such as 1.4, 1.5 and so on
with the biq-files.
Thus I can not edit the text for the "huge download", 134 MB since
its not located at CFC. Only Thunderfall can do that.

Looking forward to playtest reports from you.
Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

"Although I agree with the figures KristiB is posting his conclusions are wrong:" - Adler

Firstly, I'm a she.

Secondly, those aren't my conclusions but those of someone who has researched Uboat use extensively.

And again, regardless which historical view one believe in, there has to be a balence between historical accuracy and game balance. Having too many elite Uboats to start the scenario would lead to Germany being too easy to play for a human player. Don't you like a challenge?

KristiB,

Since many of the U-boats on hand September 1939 were
Coastal Submarines I think the current initial U-boat
Order Of Battle is relevant.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

Jadetorc,

Thank you.

"Japan is crushing China - Chunking taken by turn ~45 '39 - only 5 Commie cities and 6 Nat'l cities remain. Japan may be too strong." Jadetorc

I am surprised, since the only units added for Japan are static ones,
placed in the Japanese homeland. However if the result is a more
aggresive AI that makes Japan to powerful changes must be made.

"Russia shouldn't start with 139 Soviet submarines ... just like Germany should start with exactly 15 uboats (the number that were IRL commissioned). " Jadetorc

I do not agree. You can say that a large number of the Soviet and
German submarines were Coastal Submarines.

However the total number is correct.

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

William Mitchel,

Thank you for the report.

"1. The AI looks for weakness, and India fits that bill nicely. Everyone, including the russians, can reach it without having to fight their way thru. The prize is too tempting - germans even stopped attack in france in order to help grab it. I could have beefed it up more, but for how long? Bottom line is that i did not have any ground units that cound defeat a marine/armor attack. My artillery (half-dozen units)did not reduce them fast enough. They simply moved to weak interior targets and it was all over. I am going to try again with ver 1.5 to see if i can beef it up." William Mitchel

Its possible India should have autoproduction. Its not easy for Britain
to reinforce it.

"2. Must hit africa hard on first turn and keep going. i wasted too much time concentrating artillery and armor. should have brought bombers down earlier. need to take it out and get over to india. one thing i did right was prevent italian reinforcement of north africa." William Mitchel

Yes, I think you are right.

Looking forward to more reports from you.

Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[LBPB]

LBPB,

This really looks intereresting!

I am looking forward to hear how this battle ended.

Rocoteh

Ok Roco.

Here's the tactic...

Stage 1 - I let the Soviets army penetrate deeply in my territory. Their main goal are my productive coastals cities.

Stage 2 - I'm reenforcing my already heavily protected borders cities. And begun bombing their forces with my powerful Air forces.

Stage 3 - Using all my fast moving units in reserve, I made a lightning strike to their weakly defended city of Lanchow (wich is their only possible retreat area for their wounded units).

Stage 4 - The city fall quickly as well as its cultural area. Then, I paradrop numerous hight defense units in the mountains in this zone to block any withdrawing of the Soviets forces.

Stage 5 - The Soviet army is now entrapped in my territory, unable to heal and to use their fast movements. I bomb them to the death !

In less than 6 weeks, it was the end of the Soviets army.

They immediatly sue for peace...

 

[Rocoteh]

LBPB,

Thank you.

A very interesting report.

This is really a classic counterstrike!

Rocoteh