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You CAN beat Deity but do YOU enjoy it?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by danaphanous, Mar 11, 2016.

  1. darkskies

    darkskies Warlord

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    Yeah I used that (or similar) mod when I was first trying to push myself to higher levels as it kind of let me dial in 1/2 levels but I got rid of it when I got up to the highest levels just too easy to make things too easy :). But was a very useful learning tool.
     
  2. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    @ OP -

    I relate to the thread title and original post. Deity is my default level. I like to experiment, or at least incorporate something new into every game. However, when I'm trying something different, which is often suboptimal, I can't help but do my best to still play as proficiently as I can. I also like to play games to completion, achieving a victory condition or being beaten to one. As such, even when I'm playing around with something silly, like straight through honor on an isolated start, I still get to the point where victory is inevitable way too early on immortal or any level below. This points towards another problem that many players have: the cumbersome, dragging effect of the late-game.

    As I've mentioned before, this is a turn-based strategy game and, as such, increasing the difficulty level doesn't make anything harder, but rather limits the number of choices that will eventually lead to victory.

    So I agree that sometimes the early game is fun at immortal or lower levels- you can mess around, build different wonders, delay expanding... lots of fun. But you get to a point where it's essentially "checkmate in 5 hours" and the game stops being fun there. Conversely, on Deity you're torn between the desire to try things that might be fun and different and your desire to win, and for me the latter usually wins out, which leads to rinse/repeat formulaic play.
     
  3. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    i think firetuner from civ5 sdk can be used for this too
     
  4. General Tso

    General Tso Panzer General

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    I don't want to turn this thread into something about Really Advanced Setup. So I'll shut up after this. But I just had to mention that there are some major differences between the two.
     
  5. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Yes, and yes, but I am clearly not in top tier of players. I don't find games interesting if I don't think I might lose. Clearly, from the GotM et al., many folks are happy playing at any level -- just seeing how fast they can get through the games. That does not really do anything for me, but maybe it’s sour grapes because I am not competitive using that metric?

    I feel like Deity plays still gives room to explore. I always aim to exploit the UU/UA. My “middle tree” varies and I sometimes I even skip Rationalism. Ideology is about split evenly.
     
  6. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    Yes, I can and I have quite a lot of Deity wins. Some games I enjoyed, others I did not. Now I default to Immortal mixed in with Acken's Mod which is really fun
     
  7. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I don't really see how one "cannot experiment on Deity". I think the exact opposite is the case.

    Sure, you will not get the best finishing times, but that is irrelevant. Fact is, the Deity AI just does not win games other than domination.

    Even if you do something ridiculous like full Piety into full Patronage, you can still win a spaceship victory by ~turn 300. All you have to is to not-die, which isn't hard at all because the AI can be bribed into a war for close to no money.

    Honestly, if you figured out how to grow your cities fast and how to stop the AI from fighting you there is no way you'll lose on Deity.

    Sure, sometimes Sejong spawns on his own continent with 4 salt and 4 wheat in range of his capital and then he might finish before Turn 300, but that is extremely rare.

    There is only one way you realistically lose the game and that is spawning next to Shaka, Attila, Caesar, Harald, or a combination of those. Even then a good player will always just build Spearmen and bribe the AI into wars, because he/she knows that after surviving the early game the game is pretty much won.

    I'm actually 100% certain that a really good player like IronFighter, Manpanzee, Acken or many others on this forum can easily beat the Deity AI going for a peaceful cultural victory with Honor.

    Of course Tradition finishes 100 turns earlier, but the point is that the AI just isn't threatening. If they actually tried for a spaceship victory Deity would be really hard.

    As others have I suggest to you (the OP) to try out Acken's balance mod. Even Acken Emperor is almost as hard as Deity, Acken Immortal, Acken DemiGod and Acken Deity are all harder in my opinion. The mod gives the AI a chance to actually win the game, which changes the whole experience.

    ~

    So to answer your question: Yes I can and yes I have beat Deity. But I didn't enjoy it. After Turn 200 it was just clicking next turn until I saw the victory screen, it robbed me of the whole experience and felt tiresome, not rewarding. I played a lot of Deity games after my first victory, but didn't enjoy them either. Now all I play is modded Civ and it's a much better experience.
     
  8. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    Thanks guys,

    I am glad to hear that other players have found they can get to the point that experimentation is possible and many playstyles can still exist on Deity. I played a bit there but had been shy to try my less efficient strategies. Maybe I should just go for it though. It makes me more encouraged to give it a go again and possibly improve playing at that level. I'm aware the warmongering AI can be pawned off each other by selling all your luxes and stuff early-game but that is exactly what I mean by "formulaic" play. I don't like feeling like a have to do that all the time. I think the real problem is the noncompetitive AI, which as the guy above me says, fail at most VC's. About the only way the AI could ever win over me is a successful early rush which on Deity seems exactly what they are primed to do well. My first game it felt like I had to continually bribe them or get dogpiled which got old fast.

    I have had several players mention Acken's mod, what does that do exactly? Is it a global rebalancing or just AI improvements? I was hesitant to use any mod that rebalanced the game as I figured it'd produce habits that would not play well in the vanilla game, MP, or touraments like GOTM. If this is not the case then let me know--As fun as it might be I did want to keep playing close enough to the base game I stayed competitive. I also plan to get EUI, since it does not alter the base game. Any other suggestions?
     
  9. Aheadatime

    Aheadatime Prince

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    You should check out the Advanced Start Options mod. You can set your capital up to receive Salt, hills, etc. It's tempting to make yourself overpowered with this mod, though. I used to create perfect Petra capitals every game and steamroll Deity, which got boring. Now, I just give myself a free scout and a free pantheon, leaving the starting location/resources up to RNG.

    Oh and do you have Strategic Resources enabled? It would solve the other issue you mentioned of having 2 salt but no production nearby, since you'd be guaranteed at least one horse and iron.
     
  10. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    This is pretty good advise. Even the GotMs can have major flaws. It is pretty frustrating that the average RNG maps is so uninteresting!

    That is not correct. First, the Deity never wins by Domination! You need FireTuner or something similar to see that to happen. Just as importantly, the Deity AIs will happily pursue SV if the player takes too longs, and often there is an AI (or even two) that might win by CV.

    Okay, so is what you are actually saying is that no AI almost ever wins before T300, and that early an domination run is the only thread an AI poses to the player? I concur with those two points.

    I don't think “extremely rare” is accurate. Judging from the DCLs, an AI being able to win before T300 is at least 1 in 5 games. Maybe more? People tend not to share the games they lose!

    My 1 in 5 game estimate is for games that go long. Just about every DCL has someone confessing how they were beat before turn 100.

    I agree with that, and you might be at that level too, but none of that is evidence against Deity play being challenging for most people on this forum.

    That flies in the face of the conventional wisdom that all Deity maps are winnable. If you, or anyone else, have a map that is “unwinnable” you should post it to the Strategies and Tips section. Even if your map is just very hard, you will have a popular thread!

    Any of that spoils a player for enjoying the DCL, CDG, and Deity GotMs. You are not playing the same game that most people are posting about.

    How is rerolling starts or playing buffed Deity more interesting than unbuffed Immortal or even Emperor?
     
  11. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

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    Well, rerolling isnt essentially buffing. You can get that start also from just playing a random start.

    The point is, at whatever difficulty level you play, with a random start, your not actually playing exactly that difficulty level, you are playing that difficulty level +/- 1. Its nice to make difficulty level more consistent :)

    I suppose if you want a challenge and play deity + 1, you could also reroll for a bad start :D

    As for all deity maps winnable, i dont know. I basically only play the GOTMs (which have such a good starts that they are always difficulty -1). Maybe if there soon is a time when i want to play a lot and the GOTMs dont keep me busy ill try myself a bad deity start game to test for myself :p For now i still didnt finish the last GOTM and the next one is coming tomorrow :whew:
     
  12. fyar

    fyar Prince

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    I definitely can relate to the OP as well. I only recently started playing mostly Deity, but it's gotten boring because every game has become formulaic. I've managed to win Deity using every victory condition and with every social policy tree, but I'm not good enough at Deity to win while "experimenting" so I guess I am not at the level of Acken or apparently yung.carl.jung. At the same time, I can win Immortal fairly easily. I still think Immortal is my sweet spot where it's more fun than Deity because of the variety of play.

    My most recent Deity game I expected to be great fun. I played as Spain, hated my starting location, but being Epic speed I moved my settler a bit away and found Lake Victoria. Then I found the Fountain of Youth. I spent my 1000 gold on a settler and settled both spots. I was one of the last pantheons so it took a while but I eventually got One with Nature, which is also doubled for Spain. I then also captured Istanbul with Stonehenge with archers/spears. This seems like a super fun game, right? Well, Shaka is nearby, and he's already destroyed Rome and most of Indonesia. He was also ahead of me in certain military techs. I went to war with him anyway, but he's been eliminating city-states left and right, and his carpet of Impis and later GWBs have made it such a slog that it's bored me to death. I have full confidence that I can win the war (and the game) in the long run, but it's just not fun any more, because I'm just picking off dozens of Shaka's units turn after turn after turn, and he keeps building them seemingly as fast as I can destroy them. I eventually abandoned the game out of boredom, which I would have never expected after settling two of the best natural wonders as Spain.
     
  13. sugerdady87

    sugerdady87 Warlord

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    But experimenting deity is much less forgiving than on prince. I think that's ultimately what the OP means. I've played many games with a runaway Korea that had I played around, I would have lost in the end.
     
  14. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    I also never reroll on my immortal games, and often pick random map types and civs so I have no advantages and have to explore/think on my feet of my strategy. From what you guys are saying, this is very difficult to do on Deity? I found games with mediocre or bad starts to be some of the most fun because the AI stayed competitive longer and I had to play differently to overcome problems. For instance, a bad start often results in me playing REX liberty game to get out more cities to compensate for a lackluster capital. It's fun! :)

    I have had several people recommend advanced start mods or playing posted Deity maps to have an advantage but this isn't really my style. If I switch to Deity I want to beat any map that comes my way.

    I'll let you guys know how it goes, but too busy to start for at least another week! :)
     
  15. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    The problem with random maps is that it is not uncommon to have all-land map with a couple water-oriented civs as opponents. The AIs have enough trouble, the last thing they need is to have their UU/UA nerfed. Less fun for you that way too, since the game is more interesting if you have some competition.

    Even with Pangaea, it seems like half the maps will have some major defect -- like a huge blob of mountain range that is more frustrating than interesting, or ice-locked poles.

    Yes, but isn’t a good start pretty much the point of re-rolling?

    In terms of difficulty, starting dirt makes more of difference than civ selection. I don’t think I agree that Deity with a strong start is easier than Immortal with a weak start.

    Yes, but you are making it consistently easier than normal!

    Sure, but who does that? From the S&T forum, I gather that there is interest with playing with strong AI opponents, but not so much interest in weaker-than-average starts.

    Wait, what? Is that really the conventional wisdom that GOTM maps are easier than average? I have never heard that!

    I think playing posted good is good idea because that cuts down on uninteresting maps, and maps that have obvious defects (like Carthage on Great Plains). I have been quite disappointed with the RNG aspect to map generation.
     
  16. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    That's probably true, however I'm also at the risk of having my abilities nerfed by the map type when I pick random, so it's probably even on average. Also, I don't play small maps and usually add an extra civ to the map. This results in enough civs that are competitive to the map emerging and taking out a few of the weaker ones. The one extra civ is not usually enough to mess up the balance. Usually there are a few AI that do pretty well, and the military guys can actually snowball pretty hard from the early wars or taking out a neighbor. Though these days that hardly matters since I get ahead so quickly anyway.

    I may just have diferent standards but I've played many a blob mountain or ice-locked pole map and just accepted it. I enjoy how wacky some maps are even if they end up producing difficulties. There was one game where I started on a northern coast and found later it was an ice-locked northern sea. (this happened on a boreal world). So I never built more than my first 2 military boats as a result. However, later in the game I ended up using the safe sea area to get gold/food growth trading among my coastal cities and the 3 CS also on that coast. It was a life-saver when all my neighbors decided I needed crushing as it allowed some gold routes to keep going. :) I honestly kinda enjoy the random aspect of these maps. It feels like a fun history simulation with unexpected terrain/obstacles and most game a few civs getting taken out early. I don't think the maps are easier playing my way--you should see some of my starts lol!

    Everyone always talks about how important the start quality is for a successful game. I see their point if you are concerned with numbers like finish time. Of course you'll lose a couple dozen turns to a bad start over a good start game, but if all you care about is winning like me, I find I can recover and win handily on any map. Being behind for more of the game has unexpected benefits too in that as long as you keep up a decent military you are less of a target and get more science on trade routes and can build friendships with stronger empires. Then you just need to work until you suddenly slingshot past them. I've never found a game I couldn't turn around through some hard work and usually win very solidly by the end. Deity may change that but I may be ok with that. Losing doesn't have to mean the end of the world as long as I have fun and maybe it's time for my pride to take a hit haha. ;)
     
  17. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    Adding the extra civ either makes the game much easier or much harder depending on where the spawn sites are. If the extra civ means that you're next to Shaka and Alex instead of just Shaka, the game is going to be much harder. However, if your starting location is as it would be and the other landmass (or the other side of the continent) is more clustered, the game will be more easier. Adding an extra civ means that land will be more contested and (natural, not bribed) conflicts will be increased. If the conflicts include you, the game is harder; if the conflict excludes you, the game is easier. Also the warmongerer who snowballs earlier and succeeds in annihilating another civ always fizzles out (at least from my experience.) It seems that the success in combat leads to their failure in contending in the game as having those extra cities increasing tech/culture costs, plus all those extra buildings they feel obligated to make, plus everyone hating them, I find they always fizzle out.

    yeah, I just finished a Mongolian deity game on Earth map where I was basically playing a vanilla civ. First off, Mongolia, Venice, and Austria are exceptional on Earth maps because these maps ignore the CS-planting bias of having only 1 luxury, 1-2 bonus resources, and 1-2 strategic resources. CS territory have three or four different luxuries, and three or four copies of two or three of them. As such, civs that are biased towards owning CS lands (Mongolia, Austria, Venice) do better there. However, I started in North America, there were no city states nor AI that were accessible. So I built up a 3 city tradition/rationalism game and won a diplomatic victory. My army at turn 200 consisted of 2 warriors and 2 archers.

    I concur that usually this is the case, but you need a better start when you face some of the more runaway AI. This is because I don't agree with the other guys statement that the AI never wins before turn 300, I've seen multiple games, and the Usual Suspects are Babylon or Korea, where they're entering the Atomic Era before turn 200, meaning that they'll at least be able to complete a spaceship, if no other victory conditions are possible, by approximately turn 250 - hard to say, when I see these snowballs begin to roll, I stop, as you mentioned, "experimenting" and stick to the tried-and-true efficient win strategies, and usually wrap the game up before turn 240
     
  18. IronfighterXXX

    IronfighterXXX Work Hard - Play Hard

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    Yes for sure; not all but on average GOTM maps have better starts than you would normally roll (same applies to DCL or CDG too).

    It's probably just because GOTM makers or deity hosts wants more participants (and people love great starts).
     
  19. Illianor123

    Illianor123 Warlord

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    It is a great a mod.

    I can beat Diety. but I like messing around, and testing things, and being able to compete for early wonders so I generally play on Emporer. I do play with the Smart AI mod. I would play on Diety more if I could set them to starting with only agriculture as well.
     
  20. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    It was the “all” qualify in the previous post that I was really objecting to. GotM/DCL/CDG will not be terrible starts — so just from that they will be “above average”. But I phrased my reply poorly.
     

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