You , Yourself and your shadow : Some lessons on isolated starts

[Diamondeye]

Really good article. Read until Conq/Domi until now, quickly checked rest. Looks as you are missing the Cultural Victory yet, the one I find most interesting, even more so in Isolation.

Also, you could add;
Economy focuses (Imo, SE tends to be a easy way to go for Cultural, and a SE is maybe the optimal in isolation really, if food is available, as it grants you a quick techpace early, and then you can trade later on, powered by bulbing. No need to discuss CE vs SE here though, just a stray thought.

Also, something very obvious; You can use events such as the first born greatpeople, the founding of religions and soforth to judge the other continents process. If they being to complete wonders before you get the techs...

 

[r_rolo1]

@Diamondeye

I'm still writing the Culture victory part ( 1,5 k words so far... roughly in the middle )

About economy focuses: I sense dangerous groud there ( as I said in the space victory, in spite of all the "Space = CE" talk, I've won SS races in isolation with a pure SE ( well, it had a cottage, but was in a unirrigatable tile and I forgot to farm it after electricity ), with a religious eco and with a trade route eco ). As I really don't have certains about which Economy is better for every victory ( I really don't know, it is not rethoric ) I decided to not talk too much about it. but maybe I'll give a smell of it in the next review ( after finishing the writing, of course.... )

And about the last paragraph: I'm going to include it in the "Some ideas and gambits (examples from games)"... sometimes a game example is better ( the use of all the info that the interface provides to a player is a thing that fully deserves a article by it self... maybe I'll do that in due time )

 

[Gooblah]

Really, really good.

One small point I didn't see (probably missed it) was that switching to no State Religion before sending out your Caravels is a good idea. Until you meet all the AIs and get an idea of the diplomatic situation, its not wise to screw up your relations by having a different religion...

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I've to questions on the first contact section

1) Has anybody checked to verify that there is a significant bonus to making gifts when you first meet another leader?

2) Are you sure about the trade routes? My memory is that a trade route can be established if the two cities are connected from either point of view, so I expect that opening the border will be beneficial to both of you (although it is still possible that it will be better for him than you)

 

[BurN]

I've to questions on the first contact section

1) Has anybody checked to verify that there is a significant bonus to making gifts when you first meet another leader?

2) Are you sure about the trade routes? My memory is that a trade route can be established if the two cities are connected from either point of view, so I expect that opening the border will be beneficial to both of you (although it is still possible that it will be better for him than you)

On question 1, you get +4 trade relations if you gift a tech upon meeting. But it's a double edged sword, you get -4 trading with worst enemy from some other AI.

To rolo .. great job writing everything down.

 

[r_rolo1]

2) Are you sure about the trade routes? My memory is that a trade route can be established if the two cities are connected from either point of view, so I expect that opening the border will be beneficial to both of you (although it is still possible that it will be better for him than you)

I just got home for lunch ( I'm near my house ) and decided to make a small WB test on this....

There are 3 ways where there can theoretically exist assymetrical trade routes situations:

• You have sailing and your foe doesn't... you have river or coastal access to the city
• You have Astronomy and your foe doesn't
• (BtS only)You have acess to your foes land via a ocean square inside your cultural borders. Your foe can't do the same.

I WBed the 3 situations in one of my LHC maps ( the Hannibal one ) and the result is clear: in every one of this situations you have access to trade routes and your foe ( in this situation Alex ) doesn't ( gave myself some GSpies to bomb alex and waited some turns to see if it somehow the trade routes rearranged.

Save is attached... Notice that carthage has trade routes with all the greek cities and none has trade routes with Carthage or Utica. Both Alex and I have Corporation, writing and currency ( 3 trade routes and OB )and I have Sailing and Astro on him.

This also has effect on religion spread, I assume...

EDIT... to fully see the effects you'll will have to play in WB a little ( add/remove Astro/Sailing )

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

This also has effect on religion spread, I assume...

Part of the motivation for asking was a strong memory that religions could flow either direction. A code dive might be worth while.

 

[ZPV]

Nice article, r_rolo1. Quite informative and detailed.

I do have a couple of issues, however:

a) It is technically possible to make contact with 3 ocean squares between you and the other landmass if you have a galley with a sentry-promoted chariot on it. (Even though they can't see you, you can see them, and I have made contact pre-optics this way.) This helps in scouting a little further into the sea.

b) Following up on sylvanllwelyn's point about starts with few (or no )happy-resources, does founding two or three of the later religions actually put you at that much of a disadvantage? (I'm thinking getting CoL and lightbulbing Philosophy on the liberalism path, for example)
Does having only 4-5 religions for the rest of the world to squabble over instead of 6-7 make that much of a difference?
Or can you get sufficient happiness cheaply from HR? I would typically only have a couple of miltary police in each city.

One other tip might be to try to leave 1-tile holes in your fogbusting when you can't afford to expand further. Barbarian cities tend to turn up with worrying/exploitable regularity in my experience. That way you get a couple of citizens, or maybe a worker and improved tiles when you can afford the city.

 

[JTMacc99]

I think this is a great article, so thanks for all the effort.

I have a question, based on an horrific semi-isolated start I found myself facing recently. I started at the top of a relatively large (could hold a dozen cities comfortably) continent. Lots of nice stuff up at the top (fish, crab, clams, 2 wines, 2 deer, 2 sheep, and iron) but then NOTHING in the vast center but a nice big river with some floodplains and 90% jungle. Way down at the bottom there were a few more resources, but only Marble as anything new.

Just off the southern tip was a big island that had sugar, and I think copper and silver. This island is way too far away for me to settle any time before about 1000AD.

Here's the question, would it make any sense at all to send a couple settlers down to the island and flat-out colonize it as soon as possible? I am playing as Victoria of the English, and this would be the sort of thing they might have done and have the cheap settlers for this gambit. With a happy little colony building up from the south, I could solidify my world down from the north and start attacking that jungle. Eventually I am hoping that I'll build my own trading/military partner that will go a long way towards protecting me while I go for the specialist powered cultural victory.

 

[r_rolo1]

I'm not a big fan of colonies in isolation, in spite of sometimes they becoming useful ( like when conquering out there ... some extra units on your side are always a good thing ), because AI is still terrible about improvements and colonies are pretty much bully-prone. In your described example, it may pay up, because it will give you access to resources and foreign trade routes, even with Merc ( people do underestimate trade routes in Civ IV..... you can live only from them, with no cottages and specialists ). Of course that having a colony increases the maintenance of your empire, so it may be a thing for a more solidified position.....

Of course that the only seeing the map and/or the save I could get a better idea

 

[JTMacc99]

I tried it, and apparently there is a Summerian city allll the way over the other end of this island (small continent) making my new city want to join them. It would apparently make Ol' Gil very pleased with me, but the hell with him. I'm loading a save and keeping my settler. Thanks for the input anyway!

 

[Rub'Rum]

That was very interesting rolo. But you're obviously a parenthesis addict!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I finally thought of why nobody wrote a serious article on isolated starts: because nobody likes them, and in the real world, whoever's isolated loses. Japan wasn't too far behind because it was next to one of the more advanced nations in the world for a while, pre-industrial revolution. It's like our planet Earth: other star systems with many habitable planets would have large, inter-galatic empires with wormholes connecting them by now, and we would seem as primitive as bacteria. It's not our fault though.

How many great scientists does it take to shoot for astronomy without going through to civil service, and is it actually a lot faster? That sounds like a really good plan, if you could also get great lighthouse. Any specifics?

 

[r_rolo1]

You need 2 GS to bulb astro if you block paper ( this means no Theo and no CS )... You will have to get Machinery as well, so a GE can be useful as well. You'll need Calendar and Optics as well....

Best way it to divert to Lit to get the Great Library and self research the other needed techs while accumulating the necessary GPP. Ragnar ALC used this technique and got astro in 600 AD in emperor..... but the land was not very good and he had a lot of seafood, so it was by far to get astro via bulbing than to go via CS.

@ SimonL

I know that I had a lot of parenthesis Professional deformation ( I took a degree on chemistry, so this is not unusual ) ... But they were needed IMHO

 

[r_rolo1]

Added the Cultural win to the rough guide.....

 

[Brad55]

In terms of a space race, do you consider building the Space Elevator wonder a diversion from your main tech path and simply ignore it? I usually try to build it, to at least deny the AI the opportunity, unless it isn't possible (isolated starts where my continent is either way in the north or way to the south and nowhere near the equator).

I've read that some players consider it to be a waste hammerwise and tend to build space parts with just the standard infrastructure (labs, forges, factories etc..).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ Brad:

It depends on what your tech path was, as well as how you're doing relative to the AI. If you're going robotics you also pick up mech infantry, and the internet is a tech that's along the way. The internet is the ultimate catch-up project if you can get it first. If you beelined for it, the space elevator (and the best defensive unit in the game) are a tech away, so you might as well pick it up and make the elevator.

If you're running away with the game a bit more, you might not need that edge.

Also, the more cities you have the less of a "waste" the space elevator is, since you can make SS parts even while building it and not have any trouble.

An alternative to bulbing Astro is taking it with liberalism, which generally affords you more than just the trade routes as if you go that route and manage you're likely to have non-astro techs to trade, not to mention a HUGE advantage from intercontinental TR that the AI won't see for quite some time.

 

[r_rolo1]

@ Brad55:

I tend to shun Space elevator... normally when i finish it most of my SS is online and the savings on SS parts of it do not cover the hammers spent in it. If you beeline robotics far before than the start of the SS build it might pay up, but that kind of beeline IMHO is somewhat risky..... mainly because Superconductors are a far better tech to beeline in SS regards ( because of the laboratories ).

@TheMeInTeam

The problem with lib astro is that if forces you to back track to Optics if you beelined especifically for it ( a thing that becomes far more necessary as the levels go up ) .... if you have so much of tech lead, maybe you may consider lib steel instead ....

Not that I don't lib astro in isolation when I feel safe enough for that

 

[madscientist]

Great thread Rolo. I am still digesting the entire thing!

My sugegstion would be to include a walkthrough or two. The LHC games are great but are open games to help players deal with isolated starts and not true walkthroughs.

Might I suggest linking to a few of my RPCs (No, I am not self-promoting here, just trying to help a great thread) where I had several isolated starts. RPC rules did not really affect the isolationist idea except for the Tokugawa game where the RPCs rules actually wrecked the game (not the isolated start).

The games were

Willem (archeopolego, crap land), UN DIplo win
Tokugawa (loss) RPC rules forced a poor choice war.
CHurchill (Space win)
Cathy I (Early REX, space win)

Not sure if you inlcude these type as Isolated starts, when you steamroll the only AI early

Shaka II (Destroyed 2 other AIs by 1500 BC, then played as isolated, cultural win)
Brennus (Killed Liz early, then isolated. AP win but terrible tech rate).

If you do not want or need these that's fine, just trying to help. Also just ask and I will delete the post (except for the congrats on a great thread).

 

[r_rolo1]

Thanks mad, and by all means, no need to delete anything

If you check the index, you seen that I have in mind to include game examples, so putting yours there ( when I got the time ... ) will be a welcomed addition.

Now I only have to get time to write it down ...