You , Yourself and your shadow : Some lessons on isolated starts

[Diamondeye]

A solid way of determining the other continents progress; The first Great Artist is nearly always born from music.

 

[r_rolo1]

Not always.... if you have Ind civs in game it is likely that they have done Parthenon and sometimes it spawns a GA ( AI have bad GPP luck as well )

There is a better way of knowing if the first GA comes from music: if you can research it start the research and hover the research bar . if it says that " First civ to (...) will get a Great Artist" the GA is not from Music. If it does not say that, it is.

But that is part of another article that I have in queue, about how to get the max out of the interface ( still very raw )

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm not a big fan of colonies in isolation, in spite of sometimes they becoming useful ( like when conquering out there ... some extra units on your side are always a good thing ), because AI is still terrible about improvements and colonies are pretty much bully-prone. In your described example, it may pay up, because it will give you access to resources and foreign trade routes, even with Merc ( people do underestimate trade routes in Civ IV..... you can live only from them, with no cottages and specialists ). Of course that having a colony increases the maintenance of your empire, so it may be a thing for a more solidified position.....

Of course that the only seeing the map and/or the save I could get a better idea

Colonies = cheese AP votes . Otherwise I will make FP and keep teching to SP. No use to put land in the hands of the stupid AI.

 

[r_rolo1]

^^Read my AP win section

 

[The Snug]

I just got home for lunch ( I'm near my house ) and decided to make a small WB test on this....

There are 3 ways where there can theoretically exist assymetrical trade routes situations:

• You have sailing and your foe doesn't... you have river or coastal access to the city
• You have Astronomy and your foe doesn't
• (BtS only)You have acess to your foes land via a ocean square inside your cultural borders. Your foe can't do the same.

I WBed the 3 situations in one of my LHC maps ( the Hannibal one ) and the result is clear: in every one of this situations you have access to trade routes and your foe ( in this situation Alex ) doesn't ( gave myself some GSpies to bomb alex and waited some turns to see if it somehow the trade routes rearranged.

Save is attached... Notice that carthage has trade routes with all the greek cities and none has trade routes with Carthage or Utica. Both Alex and I have Corporation, writing and currency ( 3 trade routes and OB )and I have Sailing and Astro on him.

This also has effect on religion spread, I assume...

EDIT... to fully see the effects you'll will have to play in WB a little ( add/remove Astro/Sailing )

I'm trying to decide if this is a broken mechanism or not. After consideration, I believe that it shouldn't be based on who "wins" the cultural battle, but on rather any cultutral influence actually exists. In other words, that both the majority and minority influences should receive access to the trade routes. If both civs have any influence in the ocean square, than both should recieve the ability, however if either of the civs cannot exert any cultural influence into the ocean square, than that lacking civ should not recieve trade route capability.

I was looking at Dan's post in the BTS forum, and can't see your saves since I'm away from home.

Might I ask if it matters whether there is no cultural influence as opposed to just a minority cultural influence.

 

[r_rolo1]

Might I ask if it matters whether there is no cultural influence as opposed to just a minority cultural influence.

No diference.... The winner of the cultural war wins it all.

I agree that it is somewhat unbalanced ( and I really doubt that the designers had thought on this kind of aproach to the issue, for denying acess to trade routes ) but given that civ IV has a lot of all or nothing stuff...

 

[ANewGuy]

The guide says that no script gurantees isolation, but the Islands map script in Vanilla has yet to give me a non-isolated start, and I've played it 30 or so times.

 

[r_rolo1]

Theoretically the Islands script can generate a coastal bridge between islands in some settings , but it will happen very rarely, if at all. I mentioned it in post #18 of this thread

 

[ANewGuy]

Ah. I didn't pay much attention to the replies.

 

[IronCrown]

Good article. But I still don't see it to be possible to win if
1) I'm isolated AND
2) all or most of the AIs are packed on one continent AND
3) I'm playing on a difficulty where the game is already challenging under normal conditions (that's Emperor+ for me).

I say it's impossible to keep up in the tech race when you can't backfill, while all the AIs - on top of their individual research advantage over the human - share their knowledge with each other. Outright impossible.

1) You're already at a disadvantage because of the difficulty setting
2) beelining techs avails you nothing because there is nobody to trade you the techs you left behind
3) you need more beakers for a tech because you know nobody who already has it
4) many AIs effectively share their research rate
5) and get an additional bonus if they research something other known AIs already have
6) when you finally make contact all AIs will be so far ahead that you have nothing to offer them, effectively locking you in your state of barbarism forever

Now I restart a game as soon as I find out I'm isolated, but I have tried quite a couple of times. In some of those games I had a great empire, superbly developed cities, enormous beaker output etc. Indeed everything was better than in average games and I had the feeling that I HAD TO be at least on par with the unknown AIs. But EVERY time on contact I realized that NOTHING can offset heavy tech trading.

If I haven't overlooked it in this (quite long ) article, this problem "isolated human vs. happy AI family" wasn't addressed, right?

 

[r_rolo1]

You are right... it was not adressed yet

The problem of the big happy familes is hard to tackle, but not impossible. First of all you need to know which techs you really need, and they normally are surprisingly few: you can live with only libraries, courthouses and theaters for a long while. You may not need to go via Machinery or Feudalism for a long time as well or you may not want to Go Aesthetics or the religious path. The big question in here id to spend your beakers in the best way possible ( considering your plan: if you want to bulb astro, You need machinery and you need to shun Education... if you go to chase lib ( normally obtainable if you are playing a challenging level ) it is the oposite ) . Hard beeline what you need and forget the rest for now... normally you can get them later with the discounts. If you proceed like that , you'll certainly have at least one tech to trade around. Hard beeline is the key of playing isolated, even after contact: well done , and combined with heavy brokering ( you haven't trade for with them for writing or other petty techs, so you don't need to worry with the "too advanced limit for a long time ), it can pull you to their level in no time and to win some nifty diplo bonus.

The diplo is harder: if you see a big happy family IMHO you need to play to break it. If there are no religious diferences, targetting one AI that is avaliable to go FR ( Mansa for a example ) is a effective way to break a block ( I already saved one of my LHC from defeat by a UN FR vote that provoked a war between the 2 big superpowers of the game, letting me to go to space unharmed ). Other things you can do is to make DPs.... The AI with vassals are good targets for that kind of diplo isolation. Other tactic ( this one is very dangerous... I would not recommend this to anyone that doesn't know exactly what it is doing ) is to become proposedely the worst enemy of someone while being friend of another , even DP with him. The idea is to break they unity and to force wars.

But by far the best solution is to take preemptive measures against forming a big happy family: Don't found any religion before Confu. Religion is a nice way to stir hates and any religion you found in isolation is one that the AI don't have acess., thus leading to a more peaceful world. If the AI are divided in Budhist and Hindus ( sometimes a jew or a christian rogue ) it is pretty likely that you will notice a increase of the AI willingness to kill eachother And if they are killing each other they are not tech trading... . you can see it pretty clear in the Gandhi LHC, that had exactly that configuration: all the AI in a big continent. The players that fell in the temptation of getting a early religion got the "happy family" scenario and none ( AFAIK ) won. The ones that avoided the early religion saw the other continent to roar in wars,, making the game far easier for the human.

In resume: you need to beeline hard the techs you really need ( I can't stress that enough..... ) nad to avoid early religions. If you do that, you most likely will have atleast some techs to broker and brokering techs is the big key ( as S man showed it the current ALC )

 

[IronCrown]

Sounds plausible I still think such a game would be like playing at least one level higher, but I might give it a try some time

 

[madscientist]

Good article. But I still don't see it to be possible to win if
1) I'm isolated AND

Isolation makes things difficult, no doubt.

2) all or most of the AIs are packed on one continent AND

That all depends on whether they are peaceful with a religion love-fest or at each other's throats.

3) I'm playing on a difficulty where the game is already challenging under normal conditions (that's Emperor+ for me).

I would say isolation MAY add some difficulties, maybe a half level. Then again sometimes a map can really give you problems, like being cornered by someone like Shaka.

I say it's impossible to keep up in the tech race when you can't backfill, while all the AIs - on top of their individual research advantage over the human - share their knowledge with each other. Outright impossible.

except it has been done and shown

1) You're already at a disadvantage because of the difficulty setting

Well, yeah your at a disadvantage. Isolation does not add more benefit to the AI.

2) beelining techs avails you nothing because there is nobody to trade you the techs you left behind

Nonesense! Your beelining the wrong techs. Military is unimportant early. Toss your beakers at economy techs such as currency/CoL. Beeline liberalism. Save GSs to bulb astronomy if you like.

3) you need more beakers for a tech because you know nobody who already has it

You cna also keep your science slider higher because you can neglect your army until astronomy.

4) many AIs effectively share their research rate

Not always. Sure another continent of Mansa/Darius/Liz is a problem. NOT impossible.

5) and get an additional bonus if they research something other known AIs already have

You are certainly welcome to tech optics early and find them.


6) when you finally make contact all AIs will be so far ahead that you have nothing to offer them, effectively locking you in your state of barbarism forever

NO, you need to adjust your tech. MOST civs with discover you while your still teching education or astronomy. Those are very weighty techs to backfill with. Sure seeing yourself 10 techs behind can be depressing, but not impossible or even difficult. Let me ask, how many times have you played the game out completely once you find an AI so far ahead??? One of the points of the article is how to recover tech.

Now I restart a game as soon as I find out I'm isolated,

Ah, my answer...

but I have tried quite a couple of times. In some of those games I had a great empire, superbly developed cities, enormous beaker output etc. Indeed everything was better than in average games and I had the feeling that I HAD TO be at least on par with the unknown AIs. But EVERY time on contact I realized that NOTHING can offset heavy tech trading.

If I haven't overlooked it in this (quite long ) article, this problem "isolated human vs. happy AI family" wasn't addressed, right?[/QUOTE]

OK, my point in this response is not to nitpick. I too used to cave in on isolated starts. Then I started stubbornly playing them through, and you knwo what: they turned out to be fun and not as hard as I once thought.

I have played out 4 RPC games in these forums where I started out isolated

Willem (Financial/creative)
Churchill (Protective/charismatic)
Catherine (Imperialistic/Creative)
Tokugawa (Protective/Agressive)

None of these games were we with great economy leaders except Willem, and all except the Tokugawa game ended in wins (Toku lost for reasons other than the isolation).

Others were played after destroying an AI early and being essentially isolated

 

[r_rolo1]

Mad, please correct the \ to / in the quote tags

On topic: Isolated starts is not more dificult per se IMHO, but definitely forces youy to play diferent. Like mad said, it is all about the economy and almost nothing about early military. You can definitely skip lbows, x-bows and knights, so most of the times getting Feud, machinery ( if you want to go Optics or astro, you need it )or Guilds is not a good idea. Same for theology or Lit, that are not very important economy wise ( unless you think you can pick TGL or AP ). Given that, like you said , you can't trade for a long time or profit from trade routes, you need to spend well your beakers . And, like mad said, most of the times the AI will find you ( or vice versa ) you are researching for Edu, that is normally tradeable, even after Lib sometimes, despite of not being strange that the best AI has 10-12 techs on you at contact. And after that, with some knowledge of the preference of the AI teching, you may make very profitable brokering of techs.

Resuming: I don't think it is more dificult, but it definitely pulls for a pack of skills that sometimes are not very used in a more normal Civ IV game. And because of that, it may look like playing uphill.....

 

[Greyhawk1]

Just an observation - this thread is good but to a noob like me it has way too much jargon!

 

[r_rolo1]

Sorry for the heavy use of jargons, but the text is extremely lenghty as it is ( and I still have atleast more 5000 letters to add to it ). If i didn't had used jargons, it would be a lot longer.....

if you have some dificulty with the jargon in here, my best advice is to give a look to Commonly Used Acronyms in the Civ Community . It will not explain all, but it will help.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Another option for players struggling like IronCrown would be to turn tech brokering off. IMO though, this is a full 180 with isolated starts - they become easier to the point of being too easy . I've played 4-5 games (either offline or that LHC 20.5 Viking game) with no tech brokering enabled and I couldn't believe how poorly the AI teched, even at emperor.

 

[The Rook]

Good article. But I still don't see it to be possible to win if
1) I'm isolated AND
2) all or most of the AIs are packed on one continent AND
3) I'm playing on a difficulty where the game is already challenging under normal conditions (that's Emperor+ for me).

I say it's impossible to keep up in the tech race when you can't backfill, while all the AIs - on top of their individual research advantage over the human - share their knowledge with each other. Outright impossible.

It really depends on the circumstances IMO. Not all AIs are major tech whores, and they suffer WFYABTA penalties like the human too, so tech trading can slow down between them. Also, when you meet the other AIs, there is likely to be a research pecking order, so you can work your way up from the bottom by trading with the less advanced civs initially, even though they might be far more advanced than you.

Recently, I won a completely isolated start with Pericles (Immortal, fractal, normal), and although I was horribly backward when I met my neighbours, I did manage to win the Liberalism race, and the trades for Liberalism, Education and Nationalism backfilled most of the expensive missing techs. In fact, the real danger of losing was via an invasion, as most the AIs had Astronomy, and they were generally a horrible bunch (Monty, Stalin, Gilgamesh, Joao, HC and Augustus). The good thing about them all being crammed together though is that they were so busy fighting amongst themselves to bother me (at least not before I'd researched Combustion).

It was a strange game. In the end I won culturally, despite not having any religion until after 1300AD. I'm proud to say that Greece was the tech/score leader and topped every statistic (except land owned) on the winning date, so I'm confident that most victory conditions were achievable. Hence, isolated starts are by no means a death warrant on Immortal level. But would it be possible to win completely isolated (until Optics) at Deity level? Perhaps HC could build SH and Oracle, found Confucianism, bulb Theology, and turtle to a cultural victory? That would require plenty of luck though.

 

[r_rolo1]

It only took 2 weekes for me to notice that this was in the War academy

@The Rook

Someone said that the game was not made to be played on Deity I agree that it would be hard to win a isolated start on Deity, but that depends a lot of the map in it self. At least isolation prevents you of being choked by AI with 2 starting settlers

 

[Dirk1302]

It can be done on deity but you'll need a good island, probably you also need warmongers on the continents or you may not be able to catch up.