[RD] Your First Right and your Last - An open letter to American Conservatives

[metatron]

Dear American Conservatives,

there aren't many of you left around here, but anyway.
And i have made this appeal in less clear terms before. And i will likely make it again.

Wow, you talk about the Second Ammendment a lot. This is alien to me. And i am sure i am guilty of having mocked this plenty of times.
But i suppose i sort of see your point. In my country we don't have this gun culture as a relevant protection. And i doubt it would be helpful as to what is supposed to be achieved.
I suppose this is a difference between urban Germany and, say, Wyoming.
We do have, though, a provision in our constitution that entitles us to defy the government, a clause that in essence says "if the government becomes unlawful, by all means: resist and rebel!" - not in those exact words obviously.
And i suppose the point is the same as your understanding of armed citizenry:
The First and Second Ammendment are your first rights.
They come before all others, to protect all others.
It's like a bookend.

Your first right.
You also have a last right:
When all other rights have failed or have been taken away from you; you may run, you may flee.
You have a right to refuge and asylum.
This is the other bookend.
When i was young this appeared obvious to me, and unchangeable. We had people, east Germans and Poles, in our town, in my school, in our house who were fleeing the oppression of Communism.

Today it is not going well for this right. The US is essentially paying Mexico to undermine and suspend this right (under both Obama and Trump).
And the EU is paying Morocco and Turkey to do the same.
Beta hippie countries like Sweden, Austria and Germany who tried to stall the course of history have run out of breath.

This is where we come to you.
Look, i get that you are annoyed with how both parties have screwed you on economic immigration.
I understand that trolling faux liberals who have hypocritically fallen victim to totalitarian ideology is a bit of a priority. I understand that and may even endorse it.

But these things have to be be less important. Time is running out.
A fundamental right - an important one - is about to perish from this earth.
Somebody has to do something.
Maybe it should be you.

I appeal to you to consider with the beginning of a new year: What is really important.

As per usual i leave you with the relevant verse:

Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 10:19​

 

[FashGordon]

Where in the US constitution does it state that anyone has a right to immigrate to their country? You also realize that someone being granted asylum and being granted citizenship are two different things, correct? Also all of this would of course depend on what one considered acceptable criteria to be granted asylum in the first place. I'm not American, but personally I don't see economic migration as a valid reason to be granted asylum. One more thing, don't you think that the government has a duty to protect it's own citizens above all others? And as you've already conceded the current immigration system in the US is hurting American citizens, so shouldn't something be done about this?

 

[metatron]

Where in the US constitution does it state that anyone has a right to immigrate to their country?

For one: Flee not immigrate.
For another: It doesn't. But you may feel an obligation with respect to the UDHR.

You also realize that someone being granted asylum and being granted citizenship are two different things, correct?

Of course.

One more thing, don't you think that the government has a duty to protect it's own citizens above all others?

No, i think some degree of proportionality should be applied.
As was a crucial argument in one of Valessa's recent threads: Some costs are to be expected and arguably should be accepted.
Some, not any.

Also all of this would of course depend on what one considered acceptable criteria to be granted asylum in the first place. I'm not American, but personally I don't see economic migration as a valid reason to be granted asylum. [...] And as you've already conceded the current immigration system in the US is hurting American citizens, so shouldn't something be done about this?

It is implicit to my appeal that American Conservatives should not let one get in the way of the other. They may have an immigration policy of their choosing and rescue the fundamental human right to asylum from impending doom at the same time.

 

[FashGordon]

For one: Flee not immigrate.
For another: It doesn't. But you may feel an obligation with respect to the UDHR.

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

They have the right to seek asylum, not a right to asylum and even then there's conditions.

No, i think some degree of proportionality should be applied.
As was a crucial argument in one of Valessa's recent threads: Some costs are to be expected and arguably should be accepted.
Some, not any.

I do not believe that tens of millions of economic migrants are a burden that any country should be expected to absorb at their own expense.

It is implicit to my appeal that American Conservatives should not let one get in the way of the other. They may have an immigration policy of their choosing and rescue the fundamental human right to asylum from impending doom at the same time.

Once again we are talking about economic migration.

 

[onejayhawk]

No one has a right to refuge or asylum. Sometimes, the privilege is granted, but it is never a right.

Since you invoke the Torah, let me point out that a citizen could not be taking from the horns of the alter of burnt offerings. This was a metal post at the corner of a fire pit. It would scalding hot and the person had to grasp it.

J

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Not an american conservative but an onlooking conservative liberal here.

Dear American Conservatives,

there aren't many of you left around here, but anyway.
And i have made this appeal in less clear terms before. And i will likely make it again.

Wow, you talk about the Second Ammendment a lot. This is alien to me. And i am sure i am guilty of having mocked this plenty of times.
But i suppose i sort of see your point. In my country we don't have this gun culture as a relevant protection. And i doubt it would be helpful as to what is supposed to be achieved.
I suppose this is a difference between urban Germany and, say, Wyoming.
We do have, though, a provision in our constitution that entitles us to defy the government, a clause that in essence says "if the government becomes unlawful, by all means: resist and rebel!" - not in those exact words obviously.
And i suppose the point is the same as your understanding of armed citizenry:
The First and Second Ammendment are your first rights.
They come before all others, to protect all others.
It's like a bookend.

O.K. So clearly the concept of second ammendment isnt so foreign to you after all. You see its justifucation and recognise that the cultural background for it differs from other even though similar cultures.
I am currious as to how you imagine that the right of the rebelion against unjust government is going to be carried out in your country if the majority of the population isnt going to have access to the practical means of self-defense? Thats right you will eventually call on America!(or someone else affected by that situation will do so on your behalf.) Not that it didnt happened before....

Your first right.
You also have a last right. The other bookend.
When all other rights have failed or have been taken away from you; you may run, you may flee.
You have a right to refuge and asylum.
This is the other bookend.
When i was young this appeared obvious to me, and unchangeable. We had people, east Germans and Poles, in our town, in my school, in our house who were fleeing the oppression of Communism.

Today it is not going well for this right. The US is essentially paying Mexico to undermine and suspend this right (under both Obama and Trump).
And the EU is paying Morocco and Turkey to do the same.
Beta hippie countries like Sweden, Austria and Germany who tried to stall the course of history have run out of breath.

O.K. gotcha you are an idealist. But surely you will agree that idealism is half useless if it ignores practical reality. Germany is part of NATO and so is Sweden and you cant accuse them of "trying to stall the course of history" if they didnt actively stand against destruction of Libya, Iraq and Syria. Together with other forms of inaction resulting in spread of an intolerant ideologies...

This is where we come to you.
Look, i get that you are annoyed with how both parties have screwed you on economic immigration.
I understand that trolling faux liberals who have hypocritically fallen victim to totalitarian ideology is a bit of a priority. I understand that and may even endorse it.

But these things have to be be less important. Time is running out.
A fundamental right - an important one - is about to perish from this earth.
Somebody has to do something.
Maybe it should be you.

I appeal to you to consider with the beginning of a new year: What is really important.

Consider this: Lets say pipe is broken and lot of precious liquid is vasted. Do you think its more practical to try to catch as much of the liquid into random empty vessels or to try to fix the leak? Undoubtedly the later and without that you cant have no solid solution; you may even absurdly enough be under danger of running out of your resources and exhaustion.

As per usual i leave you with the relevant verse:

Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 10:19​

You appeal to moral side of the society but you do so in situation when for decades of erosion of the same principles by toxic ideologies when these morals wernt upholded. Good luck.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Immigration yes
Too much immigration no

 

[Ryika]

Consider this: Lets say pipe is broken and lot of precious liquid is vasted. Do you think its more practical to try to catch as much of the liquid into random empty vessels or to try to fix the leak? Undoubtedly the later and without that you cant have no solid solution; you may even absurdly enough be under danger of running out of your resources and exhaustion.

There's no reason not to do both, anything you start now will take time to actually manifest, and until then, there are people who need help.
Saying that we're currently not working to fix the pipe, while true, is also not an argument against it, it's just a frustrating fact of life.

And yes, if that continues, we'll eventually run out of buckets, but let's be honest here... the USA has got more than enough buckets for a while, it's just currently not using them, while still continuing to poke more and more little holes into that pipe with their needles.

 

[FashGordon]

Immigration yes
Too much immigration no

Immigration isn't going to be needed once robotics become widespread. Low skilled jobs will be dramatically reduced and immigration will become an impediment.

 

[onejayhawk]

Immigration yes
Too much immigration no

You sound like Trump.

Immigration isn't going to be needed once robotics become widespread. Low skilled jobs will be dramatically reduced and immigration will become an impediment.

Robotics increase efficiency for precise, repetitive jobs. They do not do well in varied jobs or where precision is less important than judgement. In other words, not soon.

J

 

[FashGordon]

Robotics increase efficiency for precise, repetitive jobs. They do not do well in varied jobs or where precision is less important than judgement. In other words, not soon.

I think it will be much sooner than we think. Warehouse jobs are already disappearing for example, and you'll see a lot of other situations where 5 workers were once needed, but now AI allows 1 person to do the job of 5.

 

[FriendlyFire]

You sound like Trump.J

Can you name one Democrat that is for Unlimited immigration ?

 

[FashGordon]

Can you name one Democrat that is for Unlimited immigration ?

All of them.

There's so many illegal immigrants in the US now that they don't know how many tens of millions there are and the Democrats want to give them all amnesty and keep the borders opened, while still bringing in immigrants from other parts of the world, plus chain immigration. The liberal policy is unlimited immigration and it's nearly the same in Europe with the Middle Easterners, and Africans.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

There's no reason not to do both, anything you start now will take time to actually manifest, and until then, there are people who need help.
Saying that we're currently not working to fix the pipe, while true, is also not an argument against it, it's just a frustrating fact of life.

And yes, if that continues, we'll eventually run out of buckets, but let's be honest here... the USA has got more than enough buckets for a while, it's just currently not using them, while still continuing to poke more and more little holes into that pipe with their needles.

You see as with any likening the one we are discussing is too simplistic and doesnt include all the aspects of the problem. I will present some more.
Take for example the destruction of the aforementioned countries by NATO. It can be easily viewed and rightly so as an act of war. Now taking in refugeese from country which you have helped to destroy on this scale is quite an unprecedented insanity. The reason we act like that and allow it to happen seems to me is that we think our culture/civilization is superior in some way. Surprise, surprise many refugeese think the same of theirs.

By far the most important aspect of whats happening in life of society is imo the psychological one. Looking at it from that perspective its the will within society which makes it what is it and its also the single one most important resource and I believe that its clear itsnt something inexhaustible. Will within the nation, the will of its people decideds its fate. The type of inspired will of a nation is the reason why Germany had rebuild itself after the war and the reason why Ukraine will not likely do so any time soon. Its the reason (from psychological perspective) why Rome has become an empire and also why it had fallen. Let me just add that you cant have will of the majority of people supporting you in any social/cultural entity if your policies are not sensible to this majority. This I think is whats currently happening in the EU.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Can you name one Democrat that is for Unlimited immigration ?

All of them.

Please identify the alternative reality you have immigrated from. Or do you just get your information from one?

The "all dem evil democrats be doin' this terrible thing" theory might work some places, but it is hard to take it seriously here.

 

[Perfection]

All of them.

There's so many illegal immigrants in the US now that they don't know how many tens of millions there are and the Democrats want to give them all amnesty and keep the borders opened, while still bringing in immigrants from other parts of the world, plus chain immigration. The liberal policy is unlimited immigration and it's nearly the same in Europe with the Middle Easterners, and Africans.

The US needs immigrants. We need more immigrants to foot the bill for all the entitlement programs Republicans depend on.

 

[Cutlass]

All of them.

There's so many illegal immigrants in the US now that they don't know how many tens of millions there are and the Democrats want to give them all amnesty and keep the borders opened, while still bringing in immigrants from other parts of the world, plus chain immigration. The liberal policy is unlimited immigration and it's nearly the same in Europe with the Middle Easterners, and Africans.

The illegal immigrants here are here because of the laws passed by Republicans. What Democrats are tying to do is minimize the carnage caused by Republican programs. Which is most of what Democrats do.

 

[civver_764]

But these things have to be be less important. Time is running out.
A fundamental right - an important one - is about to perish from this earth.

So the "right to asylum" depends solely on Western countries flooding themselves with "refugees"? It's almost as if...

Somebody has to do something.
Maybe it should be you.

I think Israel should do it.

 

[metatron]

O.K. So clearly the concept of second ammendment isnt so foreign to you after all. You see its justifucation

No, in theory only. I think it doesn't work, even in Wyoming. But hey, i don't have decide that.

O.K. gotcha you are an idealist. But surely you will agree that idealism is half useless if it ignores practical reality. Germany is part of NATO and so is Sweden and you cant accuse them of "trying to stall the course of history" if they didnt actively stand against destruction of Libya, Iraq and Syria.

Sweden isn't in Nato. Both countries openly and vocally opposed the invasion of Iraq.
Germany, actually a Security Council member at the time, abstained on the Lybian intervention and took quite the beating for it from the American press (Democrats are really defensive about American wars when it's their wars

).
And i am not exactly aware of either countires stance, but generally speaking roughly nobody has seen any sanity in the US stance on Syria during Obama's tenure, except parties already involved or invested on that side of the proxy war. Which, seeing our pro-Iranian tendecies, surely isn't us.

You appeal to moral side of the society but you do so in situation when for decades of erosion of the same principles by toxic ideologies when these morals wernt upholded. Good luck.

No, i am appealing to not alter the condition of humankind for short term convenience.
Your pipe-fixing analogy is all fine and well. We can do that at the same time.
But if we continue on the current path, what it means to be a human on this planet will be altered for the worse. Slightly, since most people never have to flee in their life.
But the change is there.