Your rating of RAND

Hi, thanks for the welcome. I live in Hakodate, Hokkaido (函館、北海道) Have you been to Japan before? I couldn't help noticing the flag and 外人 tag!

He came here this summer; did not even visit me, was so sad :sad: I was unable to meet the god of Rhyeism !

Oh well, perhaps next time :mischief:
 
I gave this another shot after burning out on the Earth map (I wonder if real world leaders ever feel that way sometimes?) and it was such a delight to actually feel like I was building a dutch colonial empire instead of following a scripted path.

Thank you for RAND! :goodjob: RAND MP would be awesome too :mischief:
 
I'd give it a 4/5. It is definitely my favorite game to play in Civ IV.
I love how it incorporates my favorite parts of reg RFC and I don't feel obligated to follow history in it since it is a random generated map.
The things I would change would be just to add more Independent, Celtic, and Native cities. It would add more flavor IMO and I like to use them as buffers between major empires and imagine them as minor countries that didn't make the Civ title. And I know that sounds weird:D.

It is an over all great game and I'm glad it was added.
 
My rating of RFC RAND is 4.5/5, if that's all you wanted to know, skip the (long) review which follows. :)

Here's a quote from Benkyo that sums up pretty much all that follows...
I really think that RAND should be playable without a single reload and without prior knowledge of terrain.

This mod is so great, I wouldn't call it Civ5, but it sure is the next best thing. I've been playing RFC mods exclusively for a while now and I can't imagine myself reverting back to "plain" Civ4. I don't know what you do for a living, but Firaxis should hire you, or try to anyways... :goodjob:

There are a few minor bugs and oddities, but nothing that would make RAND unplayable (to me).

I know there are other threads for bug reports, but I feel the following observations are closely related to my global appreciation of the mod.

UHVs: I haven't tested them all, but I have no problem with the fact that some UHVs might not be possible to achieve in every game, for me, a UHV is a goal, not achieving it only means I'll have to win another way. The only improvement I'd like to see would be some scaling of some requirements, depending on the size of the map being played or the availability of a particular ressource. (IE.: Founding 15 overseas cities as England on a standard sized (smaller) map...)

Ressources: Also closely related to the UHVs, but applicable to the mod in general is the fact that some civs don't always have access to some ressources they historically should have access to. Again, it's not that much of a problem to me, but since I've noticed that some civs spawn 3 cows when they appear, I guess you could similarly have 1 or 2 "historical" ressource linked to each civ so they have access to it as they spawn. Let's face it, Egypt needs stone, Greece needs marble, Rome needs iron (or copper), etc... As far as UHVs only are concerned, I can deal with playing these civs anyways, but spawning Japan without fish or crab or clam to work with their 2 work boats feels wrong, but then again, that gives me an opportunity to explore the coast earlier...

Player spawn zone: No problem there, except for the ressources issue mentionned earlier, but I've read a suggestion from a player asking if it was possible to have a larger area revealed upon spawning (IE.: 10 square radius). In most of the games I play, I either enter the map editor to see what my surroundings look like, or, since I hate "cheating" (and can't control myself once I'm in editor mode) and usually roll using the custom "lock modified assets" setting, I explore the area to find the best places for my cities, then reload the game and settle "for real"... There again, it's not much of an issue, since there are many ways around, for those who really need it. Also, clear barbarians units from the spawn area, if that's at all possible... Sometimes, they'll flip under my control at the begining of the next turns (I just spawned a Spain civ with 6 camel archers and 4 axemen in addition to the "usual" units...), but more often than not, they'll kill that Settler+Archer group looking for suitable ground to found my 2nd city...

Computer spawn zones: Now, I have an issue, perhaps the biggest of all, to me. I hate to say this, as I truly enjoy the randomness, but sometimes it's just plain annoying to have no clue whatsoever as to where a new civ might pop... An easy solution I see, but that I know wouldn't be ideal for everyone would be to have "Independants" spawn cities where future civ will spawn their own capital when their time comes. Kind of like, in "normal" RFC, I know if I capture Lutetia (Paris) with the Romans that it will later revolt against me and become France's capital. I think it would help to prevent having half of your civ revolt against you... Knowing an area is inhabited by independants would mean a larger surrounding of that independant city will likely (not necessarily...) flip sooner or later when the appropriate civ spawns. But as for "impossible" UHVs, it's part of the game, despite our best efforts, we just can't win them all, can we?

I could probably go on with other even more unsignificant issues, but I think I've said enough already. Besides, I really like at least 95% (probably more like 99%) of what's been done in this mod and every little flaw I can think of can be quickly corrected using the map editor, I simply have to learn to control myself when I have the almighty power in my hands... :cool:

So all in all, it's not perfect, but as far as I know, it's better than anything else out there, very well done, thanks a lot for taking the time to make those mods, keep up the good work. And I'm sorry if my criticism isn't too constructive, but I think most of the issues have already been discussed in other threads anyways, I simply felt like explaining what's missing to make this the perfect mod, for me.

I really think that RAND should be playable without a single reload and without prior knowledge of terrain... or using the map editor!
 
welcome here and thanks for the constructive criticism.
I would like to know in detail which UHVs are problematic, so that I can do something about it.

What, instead, I fail to understand, is the necessity of a bigger revealed area to better found cities. Why isn't this a problem with standard civ?
 
Because then the player start with one settler and a scout unit. Often, the first city doesn't really matter a lot (at least not on the difficulty I'm playing), and the second and third city are in a scouted area. In RFC, the core cities have to be either founded without any map knowledge and on the best possible location in order to get a good start to complete the UHV. I assume this is why Firaxis has done a similar thing in the "Advanced Start" modus, to give the player the option to found at least three optimal placed cities.

I haven't played RAND enough to be sure about the map-related goals, though I think it's pretty safe to divide the number for each task by the scale of the map. A map that is twice as big as another map could have 1.8 times as many cities (as it will be hard enough to build the settlers), in case of England. Goals that require a distance, may simply have doubled values, divided by the number of civs, so that in all cases things could be ensured (at least, if it will be possible in future versions to play with 27 players on a smaller map).
 
Regarding UHVs, I'm not a big Egypt fan, but I'll have to agree that you can't really expect to win a egyptian UHV without having a stone ressource. That's the most obvious one, but in my mind, ancient civs (babylon, egypt, greece, rome) should have access to the particular ressource that's "required" to build their historical wonders. And concerning Japan, it has nothing to do with it's UHV, but I don't get why they always get 2 fishing boats while fishing ressources seem rarer (more rare?). Like I said in my OP, all this is not really a serious issue to me, more often than not those needed ressources are simply a couple of tiles away, but when it comes to Egypt, a couple of tiles away often makes the difference between failure and success, especially on higher difficulty levels. England's UHV seems kind of hard to do on a smaller, more crowded map, since you have to found 15 cities, not conquer them, but then again, I guess nothing prevents me from conquering, razing and re-settling an area.

As for the larger revealed area, I don't know, I only feel it would be normal for a civ starting with 4 settlers (which is the main difference when you compare this to "standard civ") to have a bigger revealed area than a civ starting with a single settler, so I don't have to use my settlers as explorers (who get sacked by barbarians...), I'm not saying they should have a 20x20 revealed area around their initial starting point... I don't know, the more I think about it, the more I think it's better the way it is now than any other way...

Anyhow, the lack of needed ressources and the lack of knowledge of my surroundings are the two usual reasons why I keep reloading the game, so I figured I'd mention it, but like I said in the OP, it's not really a serious issue in any way.

And concerning the AI civ's spawn area and cultural flips, it can get frustrating on smaller maps, especially when you play the earlier civs, but then again, that feature is probably what made RFC so fun to play, I just have to learn to deal with the fact that I don't know what I'm used to knowing when I play regular RFC...

To be honest, I discovered RFC RAND just last week, so I guess I'm still getting used to not knowing stuff, besides, I don't think I should be asking you to change anything without having played the game more extensively, let's say my OP was to be filed into the "first impressions" category...

I'll give it some more time and come back with more detailed examples, if that's ok with you.

Cheers.
 
I'm just going to throw this out there as a "wish list" item for the next update. I think it has been said before, but I would like a map option with a smaller size-civ ratio so that civilizations are slightly more clustered together. I know in many of the games I play there are large unsettled areas for most or all of the game. I know that's consistent with the normal Rhye's but occasionally I want to play a game with a slightly smaller scope, especially if I'm going for a Domination victory, and would appreciate a more concentrated map.
 
Walliard's suggestion would be a nice compromise between "How it is now" and "What I was talking about earlier", maybe give 1 scout by "extra" settler for earlier civs and 1 explorer by "extra" settler for later civs, but to be honest and after thinking it through, I think Rhye is right that having a "normal (small) revealed spawn area" is not really much of a problem, although the two main differences between a "regular (non-RFC)" start and a RFC start are:

1) we get more settlers, but without knowledge of the land to settle..., imho, you need to explore before you want to settle...
2) barbarians/independants are often roaming the maps as soon as classical civs begin to spawn, while in "normal civ", it's not the case (since everyone starts in 3000BC)

Another idea I've had (and it's only an idea, not a suggestion) would be to have the "extra" settlers spawn later, maybe at the same time the free workers spawn, that way, we can found the capital on first or second turn and use extra units to explore some before having to think about founding a second city, but then again, I guess I could simply have those "extra" settlers wait in my capital until I have good (and safe) places to settle them in. (I'm not the most patient person... I know... :p)

I still think the best idea would be to have the "reserved spawn area" (the area which has foreign units and cities flip to me in the first couple of turns) be revealed as my civ spawns, that way, I know what's supposed to be my "homeland" and so I don't risk funding my second and third city on eventual foreign land... having 2 newly founded spanish cities (half of my newborn empire) flip to England or another later european civ can be very annoying, the only civs who get that treatment in "earth RFC" are the ancients civs which "are supposed" to collapse (IE.: Babylon, Egypt, etc...), but then again, if it goes against what RAND is supposed to be about, disregard this idea, I perfectly understand that the whole point of RAND is to play a RFC game without knowing about stuff like this.

On another note, I'll try to upload a save from my Dutch "would've/should've been UHV", somewhy, the "be the first to settle on an island larger than 25 tiles" didn't work for me, I don't know if it's supposed to trigger as soon as the city is funded or when the deadline comes, but either way, I have two of those "big enough" virgin islands and I was first to settle on both (in the 1500s) and somewhy, I didn't get the UHV, although I've installed some user-made files (the three files by "one dreamer" from the "Small bug fixes thread" and the "RFC Rand Optimizer", I think the optimizer might be causing this, as it says it changes the way UHVs are checked, so maybe that's the cause, I don't know... I'll upload a saved game, although it will be from the late 1800s or early 1900s, I saved it in 1775 and somewhy overwrote the save later... (playing addictive games up to 4am makes you do stupid things... :p)

As for starting ressources, I must admit I rerolled many ancient and classical civ starts and they had access to their "usual" ressources more often than not... I must've been unlucky on my first games...

However, I've noticed that most of the "fish" ressources spawn on "ocean" squares, instead of the usual "coast", I don't know if that's intended or not, it's really not a problem, I like it that way, but considering the rarity of coastal ressources, I really think Japan shouldn't be getting those 2 fishing boats as they spawn, unless they're meant to be used for exploring... because that's the only thing they seem to do in most of my games.

I'm a big fan of Rome, Japan, Spain, England, Dutch and Inca (terraces ftw!), so those are the civs I've played the most so far, I'll try to limit my input to those civs, so I know what's an issue and what's simply "bad luck".

Last thing, I'll check my autosaves for the earliest possible save of that Dutch game, but I've had a couple issues with diplomacy, my neighbor friends, France who'd keep asking me for every and any techs I'd research as soon as I get it... I wanted them as allies when I started, so at first, I gave them all they wanted, ... but they kept asking... they also harrassed me to go to war against Persia until I gave in... at some point, their attitude towards me also "froze", meaning they were "stuck" at "Pleased", no matter what I did, somewhy, they also asked (threatened) me to stop trading with their own vassals, I don't know if that's a bug or not?... I've also had a VERY demanding Ethiopia (similar to France, asking for all the techs I had that they didn't and not caring if I treated them like sh*t, but to a lesser extent since they collapsed and reborned a couple of times, but when they'd reappear, they'd ask for techs until they made up for the time lost while collapsed, which is a lot)...


Otherwise, after finally playing a game of RAND up to the 20th century, I must say I really enjoyed it, I achieved the historical Dutch goals (I don't mind not getting the UHV I deserved, that game is so much fun I want to see how far I can take it...), it was really interesting to see my world evolve, pretty much everything got discovered, settled, conquered, collapsed, reborned, etc... A truly complete and somewhat realistical game that didn't feel like I knew everything before it happened, I think that's what you aimed for with RAND, well done!

Thanks again for making this and don't worry about all the complaints, I'm pretty sure if you asked me to write a post about everything I love in RFC and RFC Rand, that I'd have a whole lot more to say... :goodjob:
 
arabia and turkish have some problems with their beginning situation(a lot of desert) and there is an other major problem:computer build towns very close to his other towns.
 
please post the save

Hey, the first three files are from my latest Dutch game on the smaller map, just to make sure the first game wasn't a fluke. There are saves from just before I settle on a 25+ tiles large island, then other saves as I complete the other 2 UHVs, then a last one in 1760, after the 3rd UHV's deadline, without result. You can also note on the saves that Mali and Ethiopia (before it collapsed) had a bad habit of asking me for something every turn and not getting mad at me for ignoring their requests... Note (on the 1755 save) that despite being AFTER 1760 (the deadline for settling the island), the "2/3" in the score chart is still "whited" (not-greyed), as if I still had the possibility to somehow complete it?

I'll try the same setup again, but this time with a "clean" version of RFC RAND, since I want to see if the "RFC RAND optimizer" thingie might be the cause of for the 3rd Dutch UHV not getting checked/completed.

Other than that, all went well, there was a nice culture war between my Utrecht and France's Bordeaux and Japan's managed to become a superpower, I had to help Russia strenghten up a bit so the Japanese had a rival their own strenght...

The fourth file is a save from the game I was talking about in my earlier post, it's in the 1920s, I think France is still asking for every tech I research, if you want to check it out...
 

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I can see that something went wrong already before 1600.
The 3rd condition gets checked: if you see the panel, it's the 2nd one that's been somehow unchecked. Seems that the 2nd has moved to the third.
If your optimized version didn't fix a bug in 1.10, that's the reason
 
Ok, I'll re-install without the optimizer, just to make sure that won't be an issue...

I've slightly reduced map sizes

"RFCRAND110.zip" looks like the same as before was it updated for reduced map size or will that be published with the next version of the mod?
 
I give it a 4.5. It would be a 5, but there are still a few tiny kinks to work out (I like to nit-pick :p).

Last thing, I'll check my autosaves for the earliest possible save of that Dutch game, but I've had a couple issues with diplomacy, my neighbor friends, France who'd keep asking me for every and any techs I'd research as soon as I get it... I wanted them as allies when I started, so at first, I gave them all they wanted, ... but they kept asking...
I had the exact same thing happen me today in my game as Maya. I had both France and England ask me for something every single turn, whether it be for a technology or something else, but when I denied them they wouldn't get a -1 relationship hit.
 
I think that RAND is one of the best mods ever, except for one thing. I guess that I'm just unlucky but there is always a civ that spawns close to me and flips the good half of my empire. It's annoying and then I have to start the game over. Could you possible script the spawns to be a little further apart from each other?
 
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