• We are currently performing site maintenance, parts of civfanatics are currently offline, but will come back online in the coming days. For more updates please see here.

Your starting settler: your greatest weapon. An idea for deity early cheese.

kb27787

Deity
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Messages
2,102
When you think about it, what is the most powerful unit in the very early game? A promoted pathfinder-turned-CB? What if I told you there was a unit with the strength close to that of a CB with several times the health, with march and indirect fire promotions? And the said unit's combat power grows stronger as the turns go on without need of xp or promotions?

That is what your settler is, esp your starting one. Used well, it is your greatest weapon and can completely screw up AI early.

How many times have you decided to start up a game and get a bunch of sugar marshes, tundra, snow, or just riverless desert and you realize there is no way you can or want to settle on spot? (then you play the game anyway and you realize you've spawned next to an neighbor who just happened to get salt)
What do you do? Do you move somewhere else away from his lands and settle (VERY LATE) where you think he'll have trouble attacking you?

At this point, how many of you ragequit or reroll?

This is not a real guide, just a rather nascent idea I've been experimenting with and works even on deity (the cheese works very well on all difficulties but I've been testing it on deity solely; simply because on deity it makes the greatest impact).

How many of you say you can take Ulundi on t40+ and outright kill deity Shaka on t50 using archers and chariots? While your starting terrain has just river and forest spices? Well, that's what I did, and many will attest to my VERY poor warmongering skills. (in fact the only time I warmongered in a serious game since moving up to deity was a prince lvl Gotm and got an abysmal finishing time)

That used to be what I would do... but not so much anymore under certain circumstances. Let me stress that THIS IS NOT THE BEST COURSE OF ACTION FOR EVERY GAME, but I'm sure if you keep an eye out for it, there will be circumstances where you'll find this is useful (around 20-30% of my games actually)

Note: this strategy works best with Incas, Aztecs, or Shoshone (although Shoshone might be tricky to pull this off AGAINST) and maybe America but works for all civs, and works best when you are in open terrain. Strictly speaking you must meet your victim and see his capitol before or at ~t5 for it to work.

Here is the rough layout for the plan

1) Take your settler and the warrior with him, and search for victim (only do this intentionally when you think your starting terrain is bad/ you plan to save your starting space to expand back to later because it is a choke pt/peninsula/whatever, or you simply want to troll the AI and try this strat)

2) If tiles are not awful (meaning that at least you have workable tiles like cows, deer, wheat, and not just blank grassland or plains), settle right next to (or very near) your victim. (Optional for deity only) If he still has his starting settler, settle two tiles away from it (this will make sure it does not get bumped out of your borders) such that you can be poised to strike and block with your warrior (or spearman/CB is you got lucky with ruins generally promotion ruins suck but here it's quite useful).

3) Get your warrior into good position (because of ZoC, this might mean moving one tile first), then DoW him and attack his warrior who his guarding settler with your city and warrior. Use ZoC to make sure you get another round of attack. Produce scouts with your city. Research either pottery or mining and play as a normal game but make sure you get archery in a timely manner.

4) Two attacks each from your city and warrior will bring you target down, netting you a free worker (unless he is Shaka in which case he will promote to heal so make sure you get another round in) . At this point he may send his warriors at your city. Block them from escaping using your scout, and shoot them down. His workers are now probably unguarded if you did this right.

5) With your scouts, pillage, worker steal, plunder his caravans, proceed to own your target. Once deity AI lose their starting settlers often they will stupidly start producing settlers instead of warriors. Take them as free workers for your empire.

6) Eventually you can wipe him out completely (if you are isolated and no other civ has found you, you can bury him because dead men tell no tales), keep him as a chump buffer against aggressive AI, plunder him over and over for gold, get enough archers and farm his city for a GG which you can use to steal his land (assuming you settle right next to him, you take his good tiles which your city can use) etc.

The next post will contain pictures from actual games. I played these game blind, mind you, but say, if you are replaying a deity challenge, it works even better if you know exactly where your victim is.

Important things:
1) ALWAYS send your warrior and settler in the same direction. They need each other to trap the enemy settler.
2) Use settler "radar" (trying to move your settler whose circle will turn red if you click on impassable terrain) to your advantage. I'm sure everyone knows this trick.
3)Know when to use this strat and when not to. If your starting location has 6 salts and wheat chances are it's better than getting a worker early.
4) Get archery soon if you plan to REALLY screw the AI.
 
A:How to kill starting settlers.

For those wanting a revenge run
The game is the deity challenge that I've replayed to try and develop this strat.

Spoiler :
EA7A91F8A2A4D0F9AC1188A357EF87B298F82051

I meet Nebby, my victim, on t5. I see his borders and my settler and spearman are working in sync. I DoW and shoot immediately. Note how my spearman is perfectly placed. I also see a hint of Rammy's borders to the Northeast so I know he cannot settle within 3 tiles of it, meaning he cannot escape there.

Spoiler :
045459E6810D32BB20AA8AC7C11011A5EA5788AD

Dead.

Spoiler :
46E5922B6F91DBDDCBD77868C08AD4E5E72173C3

Free worker! Nebu is now playing on immortal.

Using coastline/impassable terrain as a trap

Spoiler :
56A266317E926ACB164F5381B0ED65AC91186E18

Victim met on t5. Sometimes you need to block his settler and drive him to more advantageous spots and not go for the kill right away.

Spoiler :
67BE5551342E4E243BA1A9F4B1C84A59E780BF60

2 turns afterwards, check! The AI is not smart enough to realize his only route to survival means walking around my jag for 3 turns, using heal promotion. He will head eastward and try to settle.

Spoiler :
5538965B515A5B8D854CC0469A425013ABE6F9E2

Another 2 turns later checkmate! For us, a dead warrior, and a free worker. Of course, I did not play this game through in the long term as the terrain was horribad but just to show you how this strategy works.

Windfall
Spoiler :
3B281347F24045DB006F09E9A1F70A3FD32F907F

On rare cases their starting settler is unguarded for some reason. It simply means it is your lucky day.

B: Consolidating your advantage

Burying deity Shaka

Spoiler :
B00334EA0E33CE112B2C1E3D79DEE074FE1E10E5

If I didn't wander and settled in place, I would've been stuck in a peninsula with Shaka as my only neighbor! Yeowch! Thank goodness I like to wander or else it would've been a thousand years of pain!

Spoiler :
89D0F456555B035F6C1A2498AAB5D42C4663ED1E

Case in point, when AIs send their starting warriors against you, their workers are completely unguarded. Use this to your advantage!

Spoiler :
893C48BF260A4AF19B0BB8A0E6A203B82BF908A5

Long story short. Note that slingers absolutely SHINE in situations where they can lure melee units into your city's range which you can trap using ZoC. I picked off his warriors, settlers, workers, and overwhelmed the savage. Revenge for the many, many, games he's put me through suffering.

Spoiler :
022E7E7775B515432CFC12D036E3FC6BAF1FD27E

I had not yet met anyone else (and wisely avoided meeting Germany) and buried Shaka. Dead men tell no tales. On another note, I also went on to win a very smooth victory with the peninsula being accessible only to me. Ulundi's terrain was amazingly nice. A map that would've been a real challenge turned into a walk in the park.

When you are scared of warmonger penalty...

Wiping out a civ carries huge diplomatic penalties so it is not wise to do so that early on as you miss out on friendship gold even if you want to warmonger later on. However, you simply can settle for screwing them permanently, making them a non-factor for the rest of the game.

Spoiler :
7E67938D3ACD467F315C89C49163980C1479C436

See how adorable those warriors are... they think they can take Paris!

Spoiler :
645EE26658DCFF171D0CC3F1C0813B47B3927291

Once their starting warriors go down, deity AI is surprisingly vulnerable to raids. Caravans, plunder gold, free workers, oh the humanity!

Spoiler :
D42ADE8FDD8FA2C9F43467FE683849E8A962DBB8

Aww... how cute. After losing his starting one Pacha makes building a settler (despite not having a single military unit left) priority.

Spoiler :
039BC439A8B2B9FC9109E1A06EEBEC4616AF1D43

Civ V AI at its finest. Building caravans that have nowhere to go without being plundered and end up just sitting in the city, and building settlers who will obviously not survive to settle.

Spoiler :
8ECE2DF1F9538252CD1DF262D399C45EE366355A

One of the disadvantages of this strat is that late game your capitol will have less tiles to work because you settled right on their borders (unless you take their city but the warmonger penalty is huge); this is easy enough remedied with a GG as long as you are willing to sacrifice a scout or two so your archers get potshots. Here I let him live although the citadel would've let me killed him but I didn't want Theodora to tell the world about my warmongering. (other more evil players probably would just kill HER off and shut her up too :lol: but I have a soft spot for Theodora and I'm really not into killing AIs that I like, esp. when she offered DoF and sent caravans to Paris instead of Cusco)

Even if you didn't take their settler...
Some cases the AI will have settled before you meet them. The strat is still useful for getting an early boost as caravan plunders/worker steals/ etc. are much easier when you are close.

Spoiler :
FB59A8084AB938E0B0ACBF0F65C49BFD39AC8E06

Pretty nice... but let's move around a bit. (no need to settle right next to him as Cumae was already founded; he doesn't have his settler anymore)

Spoiler :
33AEEC96E4FDC7E865175D2B83DDF7FB08F2EA69

2, about to be 3 workers stolen by t25. I'm pretty sure that'll compensate for my late settle pretty nicely. Note how I use ZOC coupled with a scout to trap the worker. And only with one DoW so I still have another "free" one on a CS or on him again to get some more goodies without significant penalty. Sometimes you just could use the extra kickstart.
 
Very intersting post, pretty next level early rush!

The only thing I don't get is how you call the shots for wandering settler or not.
There should be a kind of timeline: if you can't reach an AI before 10 turns(?) then it's doomed to fail. Or I am wrong on that?
It looks for me that the whole strategy is a huge bet.
 
Very intersting post, pretty next level early rush!

The only thing I don't get is how you call the shots for wandering settler or not.
There should be a kind of timeline: if you can't reach an AI before 10 turns(?) then it's doomed to fail. Or I am wrong on that?
It looks for me that the whole strategy is a huge bet.

When my terrain is not good (or say I know I'm against a wall; I see peninsula, snow/tundra), example in my France game if I didn't do this and settle on spot my back is against snow. Pacha would then settle Tiwaniku where I settled Paris and I'm pinned in with no decent place to expand. At times like these I would 100% walk down the river even if the terrain is decent (since you can block off your starting area)

Deadline for killing their settler usually around t5 when you see them; any later and that settler is a city already. You can, still, of course forward settle them at any time if you didn't like your starting terrain.

This is useful only situationally. But it's not that big of a gamble, worst case is you settle on around t5 with more knowledge of the map, so it's not disastrous. (and settling close to AI makes stealing stuff MUCH easier anyway regardless). If you're talking about barbs, make sure you use settler radar.

But really the heart of this strategy is basically to use your aggressively placed city to kill his warriors early (easy enough to do but that requires you to settle close) then waltz in and take his unguarded stuff.
 
man, this is a very interesting post. This strategy looks like a doable (and effective) one.
 

Ok I got your point, actually very intersting way to play weak starts, something only a few players seems to master.

Planting city before T5 should be the target then, or plant later but you won't be able to deny the 2nd settler if I understood right.

Now let's wait for the next deity GOTM with poor start :goodjob:
 
I think you stumbled upon a part of the game that was put in deliberately by the developers. It the idea that some starts are rich and some are poor and what must you do if you are in a poor start. Its why the covet lands system is in place for the AI. Its why we have the Honor tree so we can fight at first if that what it takes. Warriors, archers, chariots made faster and a Great General. BW should be a factor.

Nice observation. Having one deity AI gone at turn 50 would be great. Interesting that is right about when Mathematics comes online and courthouses are available.

My theory is any civ can do world conquest with its UU and this shines some light on the Maya question.

Extra cheese: Walls of Babylon forward settling with a side of Oligarchy.
 
It seems doable if you get close neighbors. Most of the time with Standard maps - closest AIs are at least 10-12 hexes from you, at least in my experiences.
 
It seems doable if you get close neighbors. Most of the time with Standard maps - closest AIs are at least 10-12 hexes from you, at least in my experiences.

How convenient that 10-12 hexes are EXACTLY the distance you cover in 5 or 6 turns :lol: and sometimes their settler moves towards you so you meet them on t3 or so
 
How convenient that 10-12 hexes are EXACTLY the distance you cover in 5 or 6 turns :lol: and sometimes their settler moves towards you so you meet them on t3 or so

Only on flat terrain. Usually you cover less than 10 hexes in 5 turns.
 
Very risky but funny :)
 
I think you stumbled upon a part of the game that was put in deliberately by the developers. It the idea that some starts are rich and some are poor and what must you do if you are in a poor start. Its why the covet lands system is in place for the AI. Its why we have the Honor tree so we can fight at first if that what it takes. Warriors, archers, chariots made faster and a Great General. BW should be a factor.

Nice observation. Having one deity AI gone at turn 50 would be great. Interesting that is right about when Mathematics comes online and courthouses are available.

My theory is any civ can do world conquest with its UU and this shines some light on the Maya question.

Extra cheese: Walls of Babylon forward settling with a side of Oligarchy.

I still think its a flawed system though. Sure you can settle your city on an AI and camp them. But you waste turns scouting around or choosing the Honor tree will probably put you further behind in technology and population growth.
 
5) With your scouts, pillage, worker steal, plunder his caravans, proceed to own your target. Once deity AI lose their starting settlers often they will stupidly start producing settlers instead of warriors. Take them as free workers for your empire.

AI does this, if the tile it wants are free. With practice you can guess where a settler will land (natural wonder, lux near you, strategic position).

In a game, I took its initial settler to Carthage. Dido send 3 more unguarded with the same pathway until my borders extend to a tile in its future first ring.

Also, you can block a settler by buying a tile or two. AI'll just stop it, if there's no pre-calculate spot for it.
 
Ok, kb, trying this out in the zulu deity challenge. So far so good. Babylon fell at turn 83 with help of France. Only got one denunciation out of it. While France was busy attacking I chopped down some jungle so I could setup my CBs near my capitol else have to go on hills around. Babylon with a bowman and walls was punching holes in my archers but idiot AI fell for worker poach and got his bowman when he took my worker.

One downside of this is I needed my spearman and two scouts surrounding his city to capture workers and caravans but that meant I wasn't out there searching the map and getting huts. So now I have to get my scouts out there asap.

Spoiler :
YkSe9eS.png


I'll put rest of updates in zulu thread.

EDIT: Oops no walls afterall. Could swear I saw graphic for it go up when I was attacking :) It was a 23 def city before it fell.
 
EDIT: Oops no walls afterall. Could swear I saw graphic for it go up when I was attacking :) It was a 23 def city before it fell.

Defensive structures are destroyed upon capture.
 
That's pretty cool and might actually be a nice starter for my moctezuma idea (check the thread) as it would put me in a very close position to spam at the poor civ buffer(s).
 
Ok, kb, trying this out in the zulu deity challenge. So far so good. Babylon fell at turn 83 with help of France. Only got one denunciation out of it.

Bah nm. After 5 more turns Washington and Shoshone declared war then a few turns later Lizzy did then France joined in. I can see this strat working on on isolated start but in that game you are in the middle of everybody. Plus I gave up a nice salt start to try this out.

I restarted and just moved 1 hex to settle next on hill to the salt and focusing on getting 4 city liberty up. Economy is way better and got a much stronger force to unleash my wrath.
 
Bah nm. After 5 more turns Washington and Shoshone declared war then a few turns later Lizzy did then France joined in. I can see this strat working on on isolated start but in that game you are in the middle of everybody. Plus I gave up a nice salt start to try this out.

I restarted and just moved 1 hex to settle next on hill to the salt and focusing on getting 4 city liberty up. Economy is way better and got a much stronger force to unleash my wrath.

if you're going to kill someone, best dispose of the body before others find out :lol:
I'd have settled just for crippling him irreparably with a GG, not kill him outright...

The spot up there is better than your starting spot in the long term, however. If you are going domination though I'm not so sure.
 
Back
Top Bottom