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Zeppelin/Scouting Line Upgrade Path

Discussion in 'Mods Repository' started by amateurgamer88, Mar 13, 2020.

  1. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    Btw,
    I'm doing Enhance Air Warfare (First alpha release in few days)
    In the future it will include an Attack helicoptere that will operate on sea... Maybe
    AR_mangustaIcon_256.png
    EAW 4VP coming soon...
     
    adan_eslavo, vyyt, danymatrix and 2 others like this.
  2. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    The odd thing is that the ww1 era of VP is Modern Era and sub don't show up until late Atomic Era. Therefore, the anti-sub purpose won't be coinciding with the golden age of airships, assuming that we are trying to merge history and VP.

    During modding, I was bouncing a couple of ideas around. One of them might be putting Paratrooper line back to the scouting line but giving them more promotions that are more combat related. Then, there would be a Zeppelin unit in its own line available at Modern Era that upgrades into a drone in late Atomic Era or early Information Era. We'll see what happens.

    I'm afraid I need more to go on. Something like a hybrid needs careful balancing. Maybe you can come up with a rough draft of what you have mind and we can adjust the promotions and numbers later?

    To be honest, I'd be happy if Paratroopers and Special Forces can move on Mountains as well instead of losing that ability and nothing else was changed. I'm just simple like that. However, this is just a good modding exercise for me as I'm learning a lot from it.

    Good to know! I'm thinking of adding more mods to my games (or at least as many as possible without slowing my games further or crashing it altogether xD).
     
  3. Tekamthi

    Tekamthi Prince

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    i think this depends on research order, doesn't it? I tend to prioritize this tech, as i don't generally like maintaining a conventional navy and enjoy using the subs to clear out my rivals' ships

    This sounds like a good direction to me.

    promos depends on whether the zep stays in recon or moves to its own line.... i have some ideas for the latter option, drawing a blank for the former.
     
  4. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    Alright, I did some testing and, other than a few weird promotion icon issues when you are picking your promotions, everything seems to be working as intended. All the details are in the OP if you want more details but I'll put a summary below.

    These are the current unit upgrade paths:

    (1) Pathfinder > Scout > Explorer > Mounted Scout > Paratroopers > Special Forces > Xcom Squad
    (2) Recon Unit > Elite Recon Unit > Xcom Squad
    (3) Zeppelin > UCAV

    (1) and (2) uses recon promotions while (3) uses archer promotions.

    (1) is more of a pillage enemy improvements and disrupt enemy back lines starting from Paratroopers while (2) cannot pillage but they can enter enemy territory without needing war or open borders. I think this can be a fun dynamic where one allows you to better prepare for war while the other is meant to cause disruption by pillaging tiles and roads.

    6 new promotions were added to the recon promotion line once Replaceable Parts is unlocked. One is offensive focused with extra healing to adjacent friendly units, more combat bonus when attacking and more combat bonus when in enemy territory. The other is defensive focused with the intention of letting the unit survive in enemy territory longer by both healing more, more combat bonus when defending and weakens adjacent enemies.

    (3) can move onto mountains and cross oceans without needing to embark. the UCAV is just a long range unit that can potentially get up to 5 range with promotions. Its damage isn't that high and it's fairly fragile but it can hit at a safe distance.

    I just reused various icons and stuff because I'm not an artist. The names are also largely unoriginal but maybe one day they'll be fixed.

    More balance will be needed but I need feedback on that. If anyone feels like trying this out, feel free to try it out.
     
    Kim Dong Un and Arthur Jama like this.
  5. General_Drax

    General_Drax Warlord

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    Trying this one. I like the versatility of the Recon unit. They work as spotters for my artillery and/or bombers. Mounted scout is fine and on the correct path to Paratrooper. I-ll try the Zeppelin shortly. Great mod. Only drawback: I think the AI has no clue to use them but same went for Zeppelins.
     
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  6. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    Thanks for the feedback! Glad to hear that Recon unit feel versatile.

    I was worried a bit about how the AI will handle the new units. For Zeppelin, maybe I'll just give them 2 range so the AI can use them like any other ranged units. Recon Unit will be a bit weird since they cannot pillage so I'm thinking of giving them a slight :c5strength: CS boost over their Paratrooper counterparts. That can make them a front line unit for the AI if that's how the AI chooses to use them.
     
  7. General_Drax

    General_Drax Warlord

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    Yes. This could be great. Maybe someone can add some good icons to the generic ones.
     
  8. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    Here's the new update:

    Code:
    Recon Unit CS increased to 50 (same as Rifleman).
    Elite Recon Unit CS increased to 70.
    Zeppelin range increased to 2.
    
    As a non-artist, I don't know when good icons will be made. I might attempt it but, if it came out horribly, my icons won't see the light of day.
     

    Attached Files:

    vyyt and Kim Dong Un like this.
  9. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    Another quick update! I didn't realize this until I tried the mod again. It's a minor change but I think it matters.
    Code:
    Zeppelin and UCAV now "Ignore Terrain Cost". 
    
     

    Attached Files:

  10. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    Poor little Mounted Scout....

    Code:
    Mounted Scout now  "Ignore Terrain Cost".
    
    Btw, any feedback is appreciated. I know that most people don't play this late into the game but hopefully this makes the late game slightly more interesting.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. adan_eslavo

    adan_eslavo Archmage of all Pixels Supporter

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    It is somewhat related to @Asterix Rage's EAW mod (zeppelins, drones etc.). If anyone will make it working, it will be my next must have mod. I like idea of moving zeppelin + drones to separate unique line and filling that gap with another unit. I for example didn't want to upgrade zeppelins to paratrooper, because they have excellent recon abilities during war. Paratrooper works a bit differently.

    Mounted Scout should be Mounted Explorer imo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
  12. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    If you have time and willing, I definitely recommend you trying out the alpha of this mod. It's one take of how it should work and maybe it'll be what you're looking for, though Zeppelins are delayed to Modern Era as a result.

    As for why it's Mounted Scout, it's due to the fact that exploration is basically over at Industrial Era in-game so I don't know what they are exploring. xD
     
  13. adan_eslavo

    adan_eslavo Archmage of all Pixels Supporter

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    But what with some other unit from Mounted Scout? I would opt for an earliest idea of some engineer or anything else more useful.
     
  14. adan_eslavo

    adan_eslavo Archmage of all Pixels Supporter

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    Spoiler My reaction :
     
  15. adan_eslavo

    adan_eslavo Archmage of all Pixels Supporter

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    I like idea of expanding back the Zeppelin line to 3 units with Dirigible. Instead of "Satelite" just "drone" ==> "combat drone".
     
  16. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    What are some ideas you have with some engineer or anything else more useful? I wanted to go down that route but it wasn't very popular at the time. If we get some more brainstorming here, I could add more units along the way.

    The reason why I didn't pursue the Dirigible route is due to the lack of a niche. What niche are they supposed to pursue? Anti-city? We have Field Guns/Artillery along with Bombers for that. Exploration/Scouting? That's what the Mounted Scout is for. Anti-submarine? Submarine are in such a sorry state in VP that I don't think we should just make them even worse with another counter. If you have any thoughts or ideas, I'd be happy to listen. I'm just very hesitant to add in units that might not see any plays due to other units doing everything else better.
     
  17. adan_eslavo

    adan_eslavo Archmage of all Pixels Supporter

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    It could be something based on Australian Digger, even using it's model, but remember that such "soldiers" were on all fronts of WWI. It could be unlocked at Dynamite:
    Spoiler Instead of Mounted Scout :
    Pyrotechnist
    Unlocked at Dynamite (more time for explorer to finish his job)
    30 :c5strength: (much more than Explorer's 17 is ok; less than Paratrooper (42) it is now more combat oriented unit)
    3 :c5moves: moves (same as Explorer and substituted Zeppelin; more than Paratrooper (2))
    3 Base Sight range (same as Explorer and Paratrooper)
    0 Base Land Air Defense (same as Explorer; less than Paratrooper (5))
    Spotter (2 XP per turn in enemy territory) (it fits nicely)
    Extra Sight (+1 Sight range)
    Survivor (+25% :c5strength: when defending, Ignores ZoC, +5 HP healed per turn)

    Remote Detonation (+100% :c5strength: vs Fortified units; +25% vs Cities; Lost on upgrade)
    Born to dig (Extra move on hills; Lost on upgrade) (lost Explorer's no terrain cost, but got something else; Paratrooper has nothing but free move on pillage)
    SCOUT_XP_PILLAGE (same as Paratrooper)
    SCOUT_GOODY_BONUS (same as Explorer and Paratrooper)


    Basically it would be unit filling the huge gap between Explorer and Paratrooper. It has still some good scouting abilities, but not such good, and not so needed like before industrial, where there's something to explore. It has some part of Paratroopers abilities. It has some new support stuff to make it useful on the battlefield. This and all promotion received during early game make him excellent attacker of Citadels or Forts and Cities too.

    Scouting role will be taken by Zeppelins and Later Drones. That way Zeppelin doesn't need anything before. Maybe later after UCAV? @pineappledan suggested very unique and useful imo:

    Spoiler Sattelites :
    Spy Satellite
    at Sattelites
    high build cost

    Civilian Unit (no CS)
    Cannot be captured
    Can occupy same tile as enemy unit (is it doable?)
    8 :c5moves: Movement (would be good if it didn't use roads :p if you know what I mean)
    6 Base Sigh Range
    Hovering unit (can pass through mountains and coast without embarking)
    Unobstructed vision
    Submarine Detection (can reveal submarines) (Leave them aloone!)
    This way Zepelin should be moved back to Steam Power and UCAV to Flight.

    So new lines:
    (1) ==> Scout ==> Explorer ==> Pyrotechnist ==> Paratrooper ==>
    (2) Zeppelin ==> Drone (UCAV?) ==> Spy Satellite

    And to be honest, I don't like new Recon line units. I would focus on Zeppelin line more or even extracting Drone out of that line making it solo unit and fitting something else there so:
    (1) ==> Scout ==> Explorer ==> Pyrotechnist ==> Paratrooper ==>
    (2) Zeppelin ==> Drone (at Flying; new; something between those two, so more civilian, more flying scout) ==> Spy Satellite
    (3) UCAV (at Computers; combat oriented drone)
    (4) Recon line

    So we have two drone types instead of original zero. New flying scout line. Ground scout line changing into ground support role.


    And to finish my long dispute, current scout line unit is boooooring. Like you said, scouting is not so needed anymore and then there's huge jump from expert scout to support military unit.

    And bonus. Imagine she is talking about hated submarines:
    Spoiler Leave them aloone! :
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
  18. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    The issue I can see with this unit is how does the AI know to build it? Since this unit will be upgrading to a Paratrooper, it will be a Recon unit and the AI doesn't like building a lot of them at this stage. In addition, I probably wouldn't build it either since Fusiliers will be just a better combat unit. Remote Detonation seems decent but attacking with a melee unit is usually a death sentence for that unit with the rise of Gatling Guns and Field Guns. It's still in such an awkward spot as I wouldn't risk losing even my highly promoted Pyrotechnist. If it lacks good scouting abilities and its supporting roles aren't that good, I might just wait until Paratrooper. Losing Ignore Terrain Cost likely will hurt this unit from pillaging Forts and Citadels easily. Let's also remember that we get one and maybe two of these units with lots of promotions. What are your thoughts on these concerns of mine?

    We are upgrading a combat unit to a civilian unit? Assuming that this is possible through coding, a lot of promotions are wasted since no combat capabilities render so many of them useless. I also don't know how the game will treat situations where you have a Cannot be Captured civilian unit. Does that mean my unit denies the enemy the ability to enter the same tile as the civilian unit? Does it crash the game? When I upgrade, will that drop my supply by 1 so I can build another military unit? Maybe you can shed some light on these concerns before I consider the rest of the ideas. Thanks!
     
  19. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    My idea for the Globe Trotter was that you could send them on arctic expeditions and chart the last bits of fog left on the empty parts of the map for :c5science:/:c5gold:, probably at 2x the rate of the Bandeirante. Other than that, they would just be explorers with a bigger CS and the ability to enter mountain/ice. Not a super-useful unit overall, but it would fill the slot until paratroopers come in.

    What if the Dirigible/Zeppelin/Satellite had 2 roles:
    • could detect subs (remove detection from destroyers)
    • Had a ranged attack and could move after attacking, but was only capable of attacking cities.
    Zeppelins were used by some forces in WWI to bomb cities, but they were flew too high and were too inaccurate to hit anything smaller than a city, and guided bombs wouldn't exist for a long time. The code to make a unit only able to hit cities already exists (battering ram)

    This would buff submarines, because you have a dedicated spotter unit that can only detect them, but can't attack them. This makes it more complicated to go after subs. It also narrows down the zeppelin line's focus, such that you could give them the naval ranged unit's AI and they should be able to fill their role okay.

    Then, if they upgrade to satellites and lose their city attack, it wouldn't feel like such a loss because there are bombers at that point that can take over.
     
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  20. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    I feel that removing detection poses the biggest issue of how the AI will know how to do this. How would you program so the AI will build a few but not too many of these units? And will the AI know how to go through the complicated matter of escorting their units to take down subs? The current situation is simple where, if Destroyer spots Submarine, they will attack and destroy. I honestly don't know what the civ AI can and cannot be taught.

    The challenge for wars this late isn't the city but all the units between your units and their cities. If I can reach the cities, I have basically cleared out the enemy forces. With a unit that can only attack cities, it's just not worth it. In this case, I feel even Cavalry, Light Tanks and Helicopters are more useful since they can attack units and, despite less damage to cities, will be more useful for the entire war. Given the pitiful state of Cavalry, Lights Tanks and Helicopters, that means I'll never get Dirigible/Zeppelin.

    Given that you can unlock Bombers before Submarines, you can have a situation where these units are detection only. That's such a waste of hammers for me honestly.
     

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