Zeppelin/Scouting Line Upgrade Path

I feel that removing detection poses the biggest issue of how the AI will know how to do this. How would you program so the AI will build a few but not too many of these units? And will the AI know how to go through the complicated matter of escorting their units to take down subs? The current situation is simple where, if Destroyer spots Submarine, they will attack and destroy. I honestly don't know what the civ AI can and cannot be taught.
Subs can still be detected by any adjacent unit. sub detection only gives vision on 2+ tile range. You said yourself that subs need some help, and moving detection to a dedicated spotter (which would also be immune to subs) would help in that respect.

This also would address a current problem where the counter to subs unlocks on a different, non-prereq tech for subs, so there is a space of time where subs are undetectable if a player has rushed Penicillin. You might find that moving detection to dirigibles/zeppelins actually helps the AI, because they would have the tools to see subs even if they are slightly behind or at tech parity.
The challenge for wars this late isn't the city but all the units between your units and their cities. If I can reach the cities, I have basically cleared out the enemy forces. With a unit that can only attack cities, it's just not worth it. In this case, I feel even Cavalry, Light Tanks and Helicopters are more useful since they can attack units and, despite less damage to cities, will be more useful for the entire war. Given the pitiful state of Cavalry, Lights Tanks and Helicopters, that means I'll never get Dirigible/Zeppelin.
Their primary role would be as spotters. Sub detection is just an extension of that role.

This entire conversation started because people felt like the spotter role is lost when zeppelins transition to paratroopers. If they can only attack cities that doesn't diminish their main role, because Zeppelins aren't frontline units even if they could attack.
 
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Subs can still be detected by any adjacent unit. sub detection only gives vision on 2+ tile range. You said yourself that subs need some help, and moving detection to a dedicated spotter (which would also be immune to subs) would help in that respect.

This also would address a current problem where the counter to subs unlocks on a different, non-prereq tech for subs, so there is a space of time where subs are undetectable if a player has rushed Penicillin. You might find that moving detection to dirigibles/zeppelins actually helps the AI, because they would have the tools to see subs even if they are slightly behind or at tech parity.

Their primary role would be as spotters. Sub detection is just an extension of that role.

This entire conversation started because people felt like the spotter role is lost when zeppelins transition to paratroopers. If they can only attack cities that doesn't diminish their main role, because Zeppelins aren't frontline units even if they could attack.

I said subs need help but this isn't what I had in mind, especially when it promotes a unit that has no other uses. For a human player, supply is very important and wasting it on a unit that has a sole purpose of spotter just doesn't cut it for me. Currently, the naval battles are already largely a numbers game where the side with the larger navy generally wins. If I build one of these resulting in one fewer ship, then that's a disadvantage for me. The AI has enough supply to waste it but a human player lacks that luxury. I also struggle to see how this helps the AI. If you make the AI build more of this, it weakens them because here's a unit that does absolutely nothing for them in combat, especially if I don't build any submarines. Maybe you can also shed light how this spotter is immune to subs. I'm curious how that code would work. That immunity still won't save the spotter from getting destroyed by naval units that are generally stronger than their land counterpart. You buff its survivability and suddenly this spotter becomes your front line in land battles.

I also don't get why we are giving the AI the tools to counter a sub, which the player rushed to unlock, when the AI is slightly behind or at tech parity. Shouldn't we reward the player or AI that gets ahead in military techs where they can use their tools to defeat their foes? If I'm in Renaissance Era fighting against an AI that unlocked Fusiliers and Field Guns, I expect to have a bad day because I didn't prioritize the right techs to counter it. The game shouldn't give me the tools to neutralize that advantage the AI achieved so I can be on par with the AI in tech.

For spotter role, we also have aircraft. It has been awhile since I last used planes but, if I recall correctly, you can actually reveal some tiles with your Fighters when you perform an action. Unless that has changed, we already have a better spotter that's contributing to the air battle. Once again, we don't need a dedicated spotter.

I was under the impression that people felt the transition was weird. You have a Zeppelin that can hover over Coasts and Mountains which suddenly becomes a land unit that cannot even traverse through Mountains. Sometimes, it felt like Zeppelins were better since they can hide in the mountains to give you vision. If a spotter is needed, we have planes to fill that role and, with what I modded, the Recon units. If we need something to attack cities, we have Artillery. If we need sub detection, we have the destroyer. All of these roles can be done better by other units making a spotter only Zeppelin practically a forced units.
 
Maybe you can also shed light how this spotter is immune to subs. I'm curious how that code would work.
It's already how it works; that's why subs can't attack cities. Subs can only attack units that are the same domain as them. ie, if you make Zeppelins DOMAIN_LAND then subs can't hit them because they can only hit DOMAIN_SEA.
I was under the impression that people felt the transition was weird. You have a Zeppelin that can hover over Coasts and Mountains which suddenly becomes a land unit that cannot even traverse through Mountains. Sometimes, it felt like Zeppelins were better since they can hide in the mountains to give you vision. If a spotter is needed, we have planes to fill that role and, with what I modded, the Recon units. If we need something to attack cities, we have Artillery. If we need sub detection, we have the destroyer. All of these roles can be done better by other units making a spotter only Zeppelin practically a forced units.
You're the one who wanted to split them somehow; I'm just trying to theorize ways to make a new unit line. Short of teaching the AI a new unit type and making new code, you'll have to pull features and abilities from somewhere.
 
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It's already how it works; that's why subs can't attack cities. Subs can only attack units that are the same domain as them. ie, if you make Zeppelins DOMAIN_LAND then subs can't hit them because they can only hit DOMAIN_SEA.

You're the one who wanted to split them somehow; I'm just trying to theorize ways to make a new unit line. Short of teaching the AI a new unit type and making new code, you'll have to pull features and abilities from somewhere.

This is just devil's advocate back-and-forth at this point; I don't even know what you're trying to accomplish with this.

I see. Thanks for telling the same domain thing. That will be useful for me.

I was just saying that the new unit line you suggest seems to have an almost nonexistent niche. As for what I'm trying to accomplish, this is my thread and I thought you were trying to make suggestions. It's rude if I just ignore you but apparently you aren't happy with me responding as well.
 
If a spotter is needed, we have planes to fill that role and [...] If we need something to attack cities, we have Artillery. If we need sub detection, we have the destroyer.
Planes are grounded to either a city or a carrier. They can't give vision if you don't have a city nearby, and borders already give vision anyways, so they aren't filling that role well.

What would you want a zeppelin to do if giving vision is a waste of supply, and nerfing other unit lines to provide a niche is uncalled for? "I can hit cities with siege weapons" You can hit any unit or city with any other unit or city. So what?
 
Planes are grounded to either a city or a carrier. They can't give vision if you don't have a city nearby, and borders already give vision anyways, so they aren't filling that role well.

What would you want a zeppelin to do if giving vision is a waste of supply, and nerfing other unit lines to provide a niche is uncalled for? "I can hit cities with siege weapons" You can hit any unit or city with any other unit or city. So what?

I already mentioned long ago that we have different modding philosophies. This sees us arguing more than discussing. How about let's just call it truce because it's obvious that we won't come to an agreement here? Luckily for me, this argument did help me with what I had in mind so I do appreciate the help. :)
 
I admit, that Globe Trotter idea you suggested with ability to cross ice and mountains is a neat thing, and quite unique, but still the huge jump from it to Paratrooper feels unnatural for me... What about:
(1a) pathfinder ==> scout ==> explorer ==> globetrotter ==>| | ==> drones ==> spy sattelites
(1b) zeppelin ==>|


and second independent line:
(2) pyrotechnist (modified somehow from my last suggestion) ==> paratrooper ==> ...
(3) UCAV (and maybe here submarine detection?)

Zeppelin from Globe Trotter would be differentiated by greater movement, less sight, and possible range attack like it is now. Recon units are useless in such combination.
 
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I admit, that Globe Trotter idea you suggested with ability to cross ice and mountains is a neat thing, and quite unique, but still the huge jump from it to Paratrooper feels unnatural for me... What about:
(1a) pathfinder ==> scout ==> explorer ==> globetrotter ==>| | ==> drones ==> spy sattelites
(1b) zeppelin ==>|


and second independent line:
(2) pyrotechnist (modified somehow from my last suggestion) ==> paratrooper ==> ...
(3) UCAV (and maybe here submarine detection?)

Zeppelin from Globe Trotter would be differentiated by greater movement, less sight, and possible range attack like it is now. Recon units are useless in such combination.

I'm personally not a fan of this Globe Trotter idea. The fact that they can get yields from revealing tiles means that human players can abuse it simply by revealing enough to discover all the civ and leaving the rest for when they unlock this unit. However, I am considering your pyrotechnist idea as I do think there should be a better transition between Explorers and Paratroopers. I think the only change I'll be making is changing the Mounted Scout with some variation of the pyrotechnist. Of course, I plan on changing up the drones and zeppelin for different purposes soonish. Not major change but I'll think this will give them an interesting niche.
 
You can give pyrotechnist idea to sit on mountains. This make cities surrounded by mountains easier to attack and flank.
After that there's still field to add Spy Sattelites, even in different form that suggested so far.
 
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There are two ways. Making Paratrooper line separate and all lines of scouts/zeppelins merged together or make better transition in scout ground line and make separate scout air line. Both are goods imo.
 
There are two ways. Making Paratrooper line separate and all lines of scouts/zeppelins merged together or make better transition in scout ground line and make separate scout air line. Both are goods imo.

I can make Paratrooper line separate and make it so the Explorer -> new unit -> Recon Unit line. The Recon Unit line already can move on Mountains and is more of a supporting/scouting line than Paratroopers. The transition probably doesn't feel as awkward except for the inability to pillage anymore.
 
Instead of recon line I would go for Air Recon with all abilities you have in mind. Seems more "advanced" (drones, satellites). To many recon lines will also mess things up. But it is just my objection to late game ground scouts...

With pyrotechnist on mountain, imagine you can sit on mountain and sabotage enemy defences without risk of being attacked melee.
 
Or something like that:
(1a) ==> Explorer ==> Reckon Unit (but I would name it Globe Trotter, seems original and nicer that boring Reckon Unit) ==> Drones ==> Satellites
(1b) Zeppelin ==> Drones ==> ...
(2) Pyrotechnists ==> Paratrooper ==> ... (sabotage line)
(3) UCAV

Separating paratrooper line has its pros. I had in my last game one scout, which was upgraded to paratrooper... Here we could have one scout ==> one satellite which can be enough.
 
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Instead of recon line I would go for Air Recon with all abilities you have in mind. Seems more "advanced" (drones, satellites). To many recon lines will also mess things up. But it is just my objection to late game ground scouts...

With pyrotechnist on mountain, imagine you can sit on mountain and sabotage enemy defences without risk of being attacked melee.

Or something like that:
(1a) ==> Explorer ==> Reckon Unit (but I would name it Globe Trotter, seems original and nicer that boring Reckon Unit) ==> Drones ==> Satellites
(1b) Zeppelin ==> Drones ==> ...
(2) Pyrotechnists ==> Paratrooper ==> ... (sabotage line)
(3) UCAV

Let me think about these suggestions. Some ideas aren't warming up for me but some will be considered. I also need to consider another mod I will be working on that can potentially impact where this mod is headed.
 
That's your mod. This is only my ideal vision of how it could work :) I am looking forward for upcoming changes.
Spoiler Meme :
 
Here's the last major update for this mod. I will still make small fixes if I made some mistakes while modding this but my main focus will be on my other mods. Regarding the promotion icons and icons for the new unit, I'm afraid I don't know when those will be coming. I'm no artist and am not ready to tackle this yet. I will eventually learn but I have no set timeline. Now, let's talk about the last major changes of the mod.

Code:
Recon Unit and Elite Recon Unit removed due to awkward and doesn't fit really well in this mod.

New Unit added: Combat Engineer
This unit is a recon unit and gets Recon promotions (though not the new ones until an era later). 
Get Field Support Promotion that gives extra CS when defending and the same ability as the Assyrian Siege Tower Sapper promotion. The promotion is lost after upgrading the unit. 
Essentially, this is a recon unit that can support offensive pushes. It doesn't have the advantage of Siege Towers in that it takes up a tile and not that great in combat overall. 

Zeppelin and UCAV still in the mod without any new changes. New promotions are now basically exclusive to Paratroopers, Special Forces and XCOM Squad.
 

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What do you think about getting rid of X-COM and GDR? They really feel awkward in Civ setting.

Those two units show up way too late when the game is almost over or already over. I'm thinking of making a tweaking mod where I do things like changing numbers and "ridding" units. We'll see...
 
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