Cutthroat Culture

[beetle]

Is it just the three of us then? I probably will not be able to complete my turn for another 24 hours.

I will keep up the war with America. I will be liberating Aztec cities, even the cap.

My plan is to propose WR (and not IG) because I think we can finagle that vote easier than winning IG.

I am not sure when I will make peace with Washington. He has several CS to liberate, but they are kind of spread out. I am thinking that if Hiawatha has not flipped to Order by the time war with Washington ends, that “gifting” him 4/5 American cities might do the trick!

Feedback welcome!

 

[vadalaz]

There's a lot to process. Some thoughts:

GSs, science and Hubble

Option 1: stop working all scientist slots since Hubble in 5 turns means we won't get to spawn any natural GSs any time soon.
Option 2: stop working all sci slots except in Sao Paolo, which can spawn a GS in 10 if we delay Hubble and finish it on the same turn

Hubble bulb could be Adv Ballistics (Washington has it). Alternatively just plant all GSs in our NVC city. If Rio is our designated NVC city, it could go Oxford - Hermitage - NVC (and perhaps a unit or two in between) here to maximize our theming bonuses.

Option 3 I guess is to keep working the sci slots plus most if not all other specialists and jungle, get a strong Adv Ballistics bulb and aim for faster Stealth. Also be mindful of the RA with England that ends on turn 260 - queue up Computers after Telecom?

Conquest and tourism

Conquest hasn't brought us that many great works so far and it's odd to me that we still only really have one army. I'd prioritize units and A-bombs - airport in Salvador can wait until IG is completed, hotel in Curitiba until Rio is ready to build NVC etc. I also see no reason not to annex Cusco, it has all the pre-requisite buildings for the NWs we need and we could start building units there as well. Tikal is very annexable after it finishes the University, and Palenque after Oxford is finished in the capital.

I'm on board with the plan to keep punching Washington in the face and liberate CSs. Do we care about staying friends with Liz? She seems really weak and our units are right there. Personally I'd backstab her after the RA is done, she's digging our artifact so we even sort of have a casus belli. We could also eliminate the Incans and take Machu which is a 12-tourism city. Pocatello's pretty close as well but he's going to require a bit more effort than those two and he doesn't have that much tourism anyway. Forbidden Palace is in Washakia which is pretty deep in his lands. And we can always pay a visit to Isabella and punish her for the Tercio&Conq spam.

I don't think winning IG is going to be a problem here, so I think that's what our next proposal should be.

When to DoW Hiawatha and whether to do it at all depends on how quickly we can get enough units and nukes in position and how much tourism we can get from other sources.

 

[beetle]

@vadalaz options 1 and 2 are too subtle for me. I used Hubble GS for Advance Ballistics and planted the other on a Banana. I agree with annexing Tikal soon, especially since it has GMoD. I think you are up?

Got my round of turns in before my work day starts.

• T255
  • put Armory ahead in queue for two cities building units
  • trade embassy with Monty and gift him OB
  • pull back from Tlatelolco so I can liberate it (sorry @raider980, but it keeps Washington from dropping an Atomic Bomb on us)
  • looks like liz is digging up our Archeology Site near Denver
  • Rio starts on Hermitage
  • burn GW to unlock Dictatorship of the Proletariat
  • spend ~2K upgrading fleet
• T256
  • Tlatelolco falls, liberate it
  • trade Hiawatha for Dyes
  • then take back our Uranium
  • ask Liz not to dig more artifacts, but she declines
  • Washington has Worker near Curitiba, not sure where that came from!
• T257
  • sign RA w/ Isabella
  • fleet heading west towards Valletta
• T258
  • loose a good tank, sloppy
  • then I fumble the assault on Miami
• T259
  • loose a Pracinha
  • Washington finds our fleet before I find his and I loose a Battleship and GAd
  • capture and puppet Miami, bring in air
  • worker forts over Gems from bad trade that has 20 turns left
  • recover GPr near Panama City
• T260
  • loose a destroyer to Washington’s GWB from Carriers still in the fog
  • Hubble completes, bulb Advanced Balistics (since that is a favorite with the AIs)
  • start on Oxford
  • move Spy from Riga to Kabal
  • Liz blocking me from liberating Cape Town with her Gats, but at least she won’t be taking the city with those units
• T261
  • Hiawatha has nukes
  • Panama City snags our GPr again
• T262
  • loose another veteran Battleship, but this turn our Nuclear Sub gets into range
  • loose Paratrooper in place to cap Cape Town and a Pracinha on front line
  • Hermitage is done, so I convert two GA to GW to theme it, 232 tpt
  • recover our GPr
  • another GG born
  • liberate Tenochtitlan
• T263
  • Washington tries to slip a Mobile SAM in to take Miami but it is just 65 GA points for a Pracinha
  • loose another Paratrooper and a Bazooka
  • GA born
  • finish Computers, start on Lasers
  • liberate Cape Town
  • send Diplomat to Moson Kahni
• T264
  • Pocatello announces he has nuclear weapons
  • Oxford finishes for Internet and I theme it, 369 tpt
  • close out Aesthetics, and set city governors to Cultural Focus, 420 tpt
• T265 interstitial
  • WLtKD from Gems
  • loose a Mobile SAM that was forted up near St. Louis; I don’t understand: Why were people not taking the Cover promotion?

Some notes: NVC unlocks when Brasilia finishes in two turns. CN Tower is available, but unless we spawn a GE, I think skip it. Two GA on deck. GMu in two turns, so sell guild next turn? WC proposal next turn, I am up for trying IG. I was going to send GPr to Tikal and Palenque.

Thumbnails left-to-right (west-to-east) of our remainder fleet (three Destroyers [two prizing], one veteran Battleship, Nuclear Sub, Carrier with Fighter ready to board), core, and front line.

 

[raider980]

Is it just the three of us then?

I'll still play if the game is still going on when my turn comes around, I'm just going to only play 5 turns at a time.

 

[vadalaz]

Alright, here we go.

T265:
- Micromanaging
- Annexed the good cities
- Production cargo ship to Brasilia

T266:
- Hiawatha allies Antwerp. Gunboat diplomacy in action I'm assuming
- Proposed IG
- Started NVC in Rio
- Citadelled into St Louis

T267:
- Other proposal is Cultural Heritage Sites
- Washington captures Cape Town
- I capture St Louis and sell it to Monty for an impressive 4 gpt which is all he has
- Demanded 50 gpt from England, told her to stop spying and settling next to us. I want her to backstab-denounce us, let's see if this is enough

T268:
- Liz doesn't take the bait unfortunately

T269:
- Liberated Cape Town
- Washington's brought London to half health, so this is where I'll be sending the army
- Co-DoWed Pacha with Liz, then DoWed Liz

T270:
- Bah, Washy and Lizzy make peace. Washy gets four cities in the peace deal and starts burning them all. Then he flips to Order. He got quite a lot of tourism out of this so I guess Lizzy didn't move her works out, and now they're deep in American lands. This is annoying

T271:
- Pocatello flips to Order as well
- Washington's fleet has arrived to Brasilia, mostly Destroyers and Carriers
- Bought back Vilnius and Antwerp

T273:
- Captured Liverpool, no great works, puppet to connect the empire
- Captured Tiwanaku, no great works again, liberated (didn't know you could liberate when at war with the civ you're liberating, seems a bit silly)

T274:
- Captured Warwick. No great works again still but it's a nice enough city, 12 pop and 10 immediate local happiness so not a huge burden to keep
- Skyscrapers

Spoiler Screens :

Notes:

- IG vote next turn, we're pretty far behind in production so I'd set up Monument overflow at least in some cities
- Didn't sell the Mu Guild as I didn't want to waste production, and we're going to get 1 natural IG-buffed GMu and 3 faith ones on top of that which should be enough
- Cities are on -1 food because Cape Town keeps flipping. I didn't bother fixing it as we aren't gonna lose population anyway
- Not enough production to squeeze in Nuc Missiles before the IG vote so I mostly built Atomic bombs. Don't know if we really need them but some of these AIs definitely deserve the nuclear treatment
- Windmill in Palenque was an accident and I forgot to change it to something else
- American fleet is mostly dead I think
- Still haven't found any great works, the Anglo-American peace messed things up a bit. Machu and London should have something at least. Machu also has some jungle for Brazilwood Camps
- Hiawatha's gunboat diplomacing nearby CSs and buying out the distant ones
- Didn't finish Great Firewall in Forta, prioritized units instead
- Brasilia and Tikal still need Airports, Cusco as well but it doesn't have as much tourism

 

[beetle]

I must agree, the lack of GW from city conquest has been very disappointing.

 

[raider980]

Lol, that landlocked English battleship in the tiny lake. Not a bad strategy. I didn't think Civ5 would let you build ships in cities on small lakes though.

 

[Grendeldef]

I think it got there when Norwich was given away.

Anyway, I played halfway earlier today and will finish later in the evening. The saddest part is that Hiawatha comfortably won IG by putting over 3,5k hammers in two turns.

 

[Grendeldef]

I think it's a surprise to no one that back in T250 I expected to be in a position on the start of the next stint which was very much different to where I actually was

T275

- capped Tiwanaku
- Horses to Monte 4/6gpt
- Iron to Isa 4/6gpt
- 250G to Yerevan
- Silk & Spices to Isa 15gpt
- GMu for GW
- setting up for IG

T276

- capped Machu, Pacha is no more
- theming SOH
- 1 vote for CGS & rest for IG
- Hiawatha has 3ABs on Carriers
- Coal to Isa 4/6gpt
- 250G to Yerevan

T277

- Robotics
- IG & CHS passes, Hiawatha appears Neutral
- GFW @WASHINGTON

T278

- Nuked & capped Teotihuacan, Washy lost 2 ABs
- Washy would now give 45gpt & + all his Oil & Aluminium instead of demanding 65gpt, 2 luxes & 5 of everything
- Coal to Isa 8/12gpt
- road to Machu
- Rio-Madrid Caravan
- Brasilia-Kiev CS
- IG 1650/37%

T279

- IG 2768/82%
- GS spawns

T280

- Hiawatha comfortably wins IG
- road to Denver
- Coal to Isa 4/6gpt
- GS planted in Manaus

T281

- capped Detroit
- Rio-Cuba Caravan
- GG born
- 250G to Yerevan & Antwerp
- GA bulbed for extended Carnival

T283

- liberated Ur
- Forta-Toledo CS
- gave 10 Horses to Monte
- Copper to Monte 7gpt

T284

- Commerce opener
- 500G to Antwerp

T285

- GMu spawned

Spoiler pix :

---
- Detroit & Teotihucan Uranium need to be fixed
- cap Hastings & drop bi-city AB in London, cap it & make peace
- I'd also make peace with Washy soon(ish) for cash as he's ready to offer cities
- drop half a dozen Nukes on Hiawatha to celebrate the start of the war and then let the Nukes rain in
- I'd bulb that GW for Wagon Trains next turn as I once again in the spirit of a new national sport removed a bunch of RRs & Roads
- Vilnius needs money & Cahokia could use some. Yerevan wants a TR
- so now I'm expecting, in the words of immortal Kenny Everett, something completely different to happen

 

[beetle]

The saddest part is that Hiawatha comfortably won IG by putting over 3,5k hammers in two turns.

For us to win IG, I think Hiawatha would have had to flip to Order the turn of the vote. Or we would have had to drop 4x Nuclear Missiles on him that turn.

I am not clear on the path to CV. Do we have NVC? Will 4-5 GMu tours be enough?

 

[vadalaz]

I am not clear on the path to CV.

40k tourism to catch up to Hiawatha, 18k for Washington, others irrelevant. Our GMus are 9400, we have one already and faith for three more, so that's at least 37600 tourism with Hiawatha and 7520 with everyone else. To speed things up:

- There's a Brazilwood Camp in Salvador we aren't working, our landmark in Forta's pillaged, we can purchase Airports in Tikal and Cusco, annex Machu and purchase Hotel and Airport, plant our GG in the capital for another culture tile, this puts us above 1050 tpt. Start faith-buying GMus, each one over 10k tourism so the tours will actually be worth ~40k to Hiawatha and ~8k everyone else. Could also take London first for the great works before buying GMus with faith
- Make peace with Washy
- Send him a trade route (could either wait 3 turns or just DoW Riga now to get a trade route back)
- Burn a writer and pick Cultural Revolution for another 34% bonus
- Try to keep our happiness higher than his
- Trade OB as well, we could pay him for it with his own cities that we captured (e.g. he'll accept Miami + Detroit + 70 gpt, maybe you can find a better deal)
- GMu-bomb Hiawatha when we're 8k tourism away from overcoming Washy's culture and win

As for IG, I just tested it and it was winnable with selling-rebuilding Monuments which brings about 1000 extra production. Regardless, from the numbers above it looks like we're winning very soon even without IG.

 

[Grendeldef]

For us to win IG, ... we would have had to drop 4x Nuclear Missiles on him that turn.

That's pretty much spot on what I was expecting

3 would've taken out 6 of his cities closest to Belo H & I'm sure that 4th one would've found a suitable target.

 

[raider980]

I thought I'd be able to play more turns but I can't even play one turn. The fps is so bad and I have to stay way zoomed in or it crawls and acts like its going to crash. I can't play properly. I'm out of this one and won't get to send any nukes flying but I'll be watching. @beetle you're up

 

[Grendeldef]

Anything going on?

 

[vadalaz]

It's been over 48 hours so I took the liberty to play the next session. It's a short one anyway - victory's been a foregone conclusion for a hundred turns at least, the ending's just a formality. Influential with everyone on turn 290, CV triggered on turn 291.

T285:
- Captured Hastings
- Dropped an Atomic bomb on London
- Bought some Airports, planted a GG in Rio, 1077 tpt
- Burned a Great Writer

T286:
- Stealth, starting Nanotech
- Took +34% tourism to Order civs
- Liberated Cape Town
- Peace with Washy, liberated Sidon. Should've asked for more apparently but none of this really affects anything
- Traded OB + Miami, Detroit, Hastings and 80gpt with Washington
- Traded OB + 88 gpt with Hiawatha

T287:
- Captured London which had 8 great works
- Peace with England
- Caravan to America
- Moved some great works around, repaired landmark in Forta, 1224 tpt
- Faith-bought 2 GMus for an Iroquois tour

T288:
- Bought third GMu in Warwick for an American tour as it seems 2 will be enough for Hiawatha

T290:
- Influential with everyone after the American concert. Could've won a turn earlier if I had prebuilt a road

T291:
- We win
- We also finish Big Ben
- Hiawatha flips to Order

Spoiler :

 

[Grendeldef]

So definitively something going on

I didn't even notice before opening commerce that BB was still up for grabs - I don't think I've ever seen AI not building it.

 

[raider980]

Victory! Suffice it to say that would not have happened if I’d have played my turns! I figured we were 20 turns away.

 

[vadalaz]

Yeah, BB this late was unexpected. I think the AIs performed quite poorly overall, except Hiawatha who also made a pretty solid attempt at violent CV

Is everyone up for another game? Any comments/suggestions?

I have one request: please don't give units orders to travel for multiple turns if it overlaps with the next player's session. I had a few situations where units moved in ways I didn't expect.

There were a couple of hiccups in this game, so I'm in favor to have a small chat about the general plan and tactics whenever necessary so that everyone's on the same page. Raider's map of potential city locations was really helpful in that regard.

I think we're on the right track with the ruleset. Just need to decide on GMus - do we want to limit concert tours somehow? How about 1 per civ so that you can't just triple-tour the culture leader?

 

[raider980]

I'm up for another one. I don't really have any new suggestions for Civs/maps. Except maybe playing one of the weaker civs. I am in favor of limiting GMus, one per civ sounds good. I'd even go so far as to limit GS even more, not sure how besides no bulbing at all.

I'm also in favor of pausing after each round to discuss plans.

 

[beetle]

Very nice.

Yes, I would be in favor of limiting GMu Tours, so encourage making GW from them, and making Broadway more appealing.

I would like a conversation about promotions. I think we we should be keeping things simpler. Which is to say just give melee units double Cover before anything more exotic. Ranged units should be taking Accuracy until Logistics. There are probably some other things that make sense when playing alone but are not so good for shared toys.