Coronavirus 12: Don't Abandon Hope

[Aiken_Drumn]

Continuation of the many threads on the Global Covid-19 Pandemic.

Today in numbers:

Links to Older Threads​

Coronavirus: the thread where it all started (Wuhan)
Coronavirus 2: the flattening
Coronavirus 3: the resurgence
Coronavirus 4
Coronavirus E
Coronavirus: awaiting for the next wave
COVID - A light on the horizon?
Coronavirus-Free-the-Jab
Coronavirus: The Great Unmasking
Coronavirus. The n(in)th sequel
Coronavirus, now treatable with ForXthia!

 

[Drakle]

It kinda seems like there is no inherent reason why 2 doses are considered fully vaccinated, besides just being the standard testing dosage to get through the regulatory process. Boosters still have generally low uptake even in developed areas, as they are still just starting up, so more data will be helpful. But the initial data looks good.

 

[Samson]

It kinda seems like there is no inherent reason why 2 doses are considered fully vaccinated, besides just being the standard testing dosage to get through the regulatory process. Boosters still have generally low uptake even in developed areas, as they are still just starting up, so more data will be helpful. But the initial data looks good.

Not terribly surprising, but the effect looks really big. I cannot find the source data though. This is the press release, and it does not have confidence intervals or sample sizes, and does not reference any more detailed paper. That is really bad form.

The other thing that surprises me is that they gave the Pfizer booster to those who had the Pfizer initially. I thought the policy was to give a different dose to everyone. They are giving people both the Pfizer and Moderna jabs.

 

[tjs282]

Boosters still have generally low uptake even in developed areas, as they are still just starting up, so more data will be helpful.

Not sure about elsewhere, but here in Germany, boosters aren't supposed to be administered until at least 6 months after the 2nd shot.

Since the jab wasn't made freely available here until early June (IIRC), only people in the original high-priority groups (social/medical/care-workers, old folks, medically-compromised people, etc.) are currently eligible for a booster: everyone else will have to wait another couple of weeks at minimum.

 

[The_J]

Well, I guess I'll get then my 3rd dose before flying to see my parents before Christmas.
Although... I actually don't know how that is then with the travelling. I'd in theory get the booster on Dec. 18, would fly on the 23rd. Would that still count as fully vaccinated for travelling, or would I need to wait for 2 weeks again ? (I guess.... I'm actually not even sure what to guess)

 

[El_Machinae]

It's been awhile since I looked, but iirc, the peak from the 3rd dose is within about a week. So, you'll be safe. Whether you're legal is a different question.

 

[Ferocitus]

South Australia opened its borders yesterday.
The last death we had was one of the people from a poxy cruise ship back in April 2020.
Who knows how long until we will have to put the rat-lickers and pro-plaguers back into their cages.

 

[Takhisis]

We have started a cycle of third-dose vaccinations. Perhaps innonimatu will arrive at the same conclusion that I long since have (i.e. that the Argentina government is insane) but from a diametrically opposed place.

 

[Arwon]

It kinda seems like there is no inherent reason why 2 doses are considered fully vaccinated, besides just being the standard testing dosage to get through the regulatory process. Boosters still have generally low uptake even in developed areas, as they are still just starting up, so more data will be helpful. But the initial data looks good.

The two possibilities at this stage are that it's going to be best done as a defined regimen of a certain number of doses (3, 4, whatever) like with many childhood vaccines like diptheria and MMR, or that it's going to be a seasonal thing indefinitely like with influenza.

At the very least this supports the idea that it may have always been better as a 3 or 4 dose regimen rather than the initial 2. Obviously impossible to know that in advance, of course. Now we wait and see if there's reduced waning after this 3rd dose.

 

[Arwon]

South Australia opened its borders yesterday.

Not quite, people still need to get negative tests before entering and after entering, even when fully vaccinated. That's not properly open.

Edit: I just looked it up and for my parents to visit family at Christmas they are going to have to get and submit negative test results before arriving, then download and use a government app to log symptom checks daily for two weeks while they're there. This coming from a city which is like 98% fully vaccinated. For people coming from places with slightly lower vaccination rates, they also have to get a test after arrival and quarantine until they get a negative result. That's certainly not an open border lol.

 

[innonimatu]

Not sure about elsewhere, but here in Germany, boosters aren't supposed to be administered until at least 6 months after the 2nd shot.

Since the jab wasn't made freely available here until early June (IIRC), only people in the original high-priority groups (social/medical/care-workers, old folks, medically-compromised people, etc.) are currently eligible for a booster: everyone else will have to wait another couple of weeks at minimum.

The second dose was a booster. There was no scientifically sound reason to give out second doses spaced in a few weeks. Moderna's study admitted do, as I pointed out here early this year. Boosters were always in the cards here, there was no expectation of lasting immunity. Vaccination as a solution has been a big lie.

The fanaticism of the vaccine solution believes is leading to social splits reminiscent of dark ages past: scapegoats must be found for the failure, and the earliest scapegoats were the unvaccinated. Soon it will be the ones without the third dose? And then what, new doses every four to five months? Get real, this is a failed strategy. Admit a mistake. The covid crisis must be resolved with a different strategy. It has been clear for months now, but policy makers kept lying. And people really wish to believe the lies rather than confront the bleak situation. But it's getting impossible to ignore:

There is increasing evidence that vaccinated individuals continue to have a relevant role in transmission. In Massachusetts, USA, a total of 469 new COVID-19 cases were detected during various events in July, 2021, and 346 (74%) of these cases were in people who were fully or partly vaccinated, 274 (79%) of whom were symptomatic. Cycle threshold values were similarly low between people who were fully vaccinated (median 22·8) and people who were unvaccinated, not fully vaccinated, or whose vaccination status was unknown (median 21·5), indicating a high viral load even among people who were fully vaccinated.[2]
In the USA, a total of 10 262 COVID-19 cases were reported in vaccinated people by April 30, 2021, of whom 2725 (26·6%) were asymptomatic, 995 (9·7%) were hospitalised, and 160 (1·6%) died.[3]
In Germany, 55·4% of symptomatic COVID-19 cases in patients aged 60 years or older were in fully vaccinated individuals,[4] and this proportion is increasing each week. In Münster, Germany, new cases of COVID-19 occurred in at least 85 (22%) of 380 people who were fully vaccinated or who had recovered from COVID-19 and who attended a nightclub.[5] People who are vaccinated have a lower risk of severe disease but are still a relevant part of the pandemic.
It is therefore wrong and dangerous to speak of a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Historically, both the USA and Germany have engendered negative experiences by stigmatising parts of the population for their skin colour or religion. I call on high-level officials and scientists to stop the inappropriate stigmatisation of unvaccinated people, who include our patients, colleagues, and other fellow citizens, and to put extra effort into bringing society together.

2. Brown CM Vostok J Johnson H et al.
Outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 infections, including COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infections, associated with large public gatherings—Barnstable County, Massachusetts, July 2021.
MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2021; 70: 1059-1062

3. US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Case Investigations Team
COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infections reported to CDC—United States, January 1–April 30, 2021.
MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2021; 70: 792-793

4. Robert Koch Institut
Wöchentlicher Lagebericht des RKI zur Coronavirus-Krankheit-2019 (COVID-19)—14·10·2021—aktualisierter Stand für Deutschland.
https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ...bericht_2021-10-14.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
Date: Oct 14, 2021
Date accessed: October 18, 2021

5. Von Dolle F
Münster: Inzwischen 85 Infizierte nach 2G-Party im Club.
https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/westfalen-lippe/corona-infektionen-clubbesuch-muenster-100.html
Date: Sept 20, 2021
Date accessed: September 23, 2021

Data on the failure of this strategy goes back to April.
The vacines serve as an excuse for policymakers to shrug off responsibility for doing anything else. The magic syringe of absolution.

 

[Ferocitus]

Not quite, people still need to get negative tests before entering and after entering, even when fully vaccinated. That's not properly open.

Edit: I just looked it up and for my parents to visit family at Christmas they are going to have to get and submit negative test results before arriving, then download and use a government app to log symptom checks daily for two weeks while they're there. This coming from a city which is like 98% fully vaccinated. For people coming from places with slightly lower vaccination rates, they also have to get a test after arrival and quarantine until they get a negative result. That's certainly not an open border lol.

That depends on whose definition you're using. The gummint here has theirs, you have yours.

SA records first positive COVID-19 case after borders open, but poses 'no risk to the community'
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11...-covid19-case-in-interstate-arrival/100645794

 

[Arwon]

That depends on whose definition you're using. The gummint here has theirs, you have yours.

SA records first positive COVID-19 case after borders open, but poses 'no risk to the community'
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11...-covid19-case-in-interstate-arrival/100645794

Simple question really - can you as a fully vaccinated person go there without jumping through hoops, without quarantine, and without the risk of having to cancel the trip.

That's the ACT border arrangement - anyone vaccinated can come here for any reason from anywhere in the country, no periodic app based monitoring or permissions or whatever. Actually open. There is likewise free movement into NSW and Victoria. So far the other "opening" states haven't really replicated that, it's still a semi rejoining of the country.

(There's still a token online declaration you have to fill in coming from parts of Vic, and like, Albury, but it's not a request for approval or anything of that nature.)

 

[innonimatu]

If he can then the australian government is being as dumb as the french one featuring the idiot who said:

On a constaté que les personnes qui ont deux doses, jusqu'alors, lorsqu'elles croisaient une personne qui était contaminée, devaient être cas contact et donc s'isoler. Les analyses faites sur ces personnes montrent qu'elles n'ont plus de chances d'attraper la maladie

in a pathetic attempt to justify the "green passes" for the vaccinated. Said idiot just got covid.

 

[Drakle]

@innonimatu is basically screaming and pointing at the left side of this graph while ignoring the right side, in everything he does. Just one example, but it's pretty constant.



And in terms of cases.

 

[Ferocitus]

Simple question really - can you as a fully vaccinated person go there without jumping through hoops, without quarantine, and without the risk of having to cancel the trip.

That's the ACT border arrangement - anyone vaccinated can come here for any reason from anywhere in the country, no periodic app based monitoring or permissions or whatever. Actually open. There is likewise free movement into NSW and Victoria. So far the other "opening" states haven't really replicated that, it's still a semi rejoining of the country.

(There's still a token online declaration you have to fill in coming from parts of Vic, and like, Albury, but it's not a request for approval or anything of that nature.)

Sorry, but I really don't know what hoops people have to jump through to come to SA. I live here!

Clearly, the SA government's definition of "open" doesn't satisfy you. I guess they're calling it open
simply because it's easier than it was before. And I sympathise with your family's predicament - fear of
cancellation and/or not being able to get back for work are the main reasons our relatives aren't
coming over from Sydney this year, and why we aren't considering going there until things are more
certain.

Here are the latest travel restrictions for those wanting to come into SA.
https://www.covid-19.sa.gov.au/travel/entrycheck-sa

 

[Arwon]

During the Delta outbreak we've had 1929 positive cases in a population of about 450,000. 152 people were in hospital of which 40 required ICU, 19 were ventilated and 11 died. None of the ventilated or dead were fully vaccinated.

Daily case numbers looked like this from around late September (lockdown ended October 15 and pretty much all restrictions have been done since early November)

It has been mostly younger people getting infected recently, including a bunch of school kids:

Mostly have stopped looking at daily cases, they're usually in the 5 to 15 range and just a trickle of exposure sites.

The only rules are masks on buses and in health settings and using the QR check in app. Unlike some of the states we're not doing vaccine-gated access to commercial establishments and the employment mandates are just for the health/aged care sector and temporarily for schools, rather than general for much of the workforce. Things going well.

 

[Samson]

The torygraph is saying that the Oxford-AZ vaccine may give longer lasting T cell immunity than the mRNA ones. They are only hinting at the existence of real data, the only evidence they present is that the UK has high infection but low hospitalisation rates, and used a lot of the Oxford-AZ jab (~50% of people got this as the main vaccine). I guess it is plausable, being introduced by a "natural" viral particle could mean the immune system is better set up to detect and respond to the infected cells, which is what stimulates the T cells. It seems very weak evidence to base a story on though, may well be closer to propaganda than news considering the source.

 

[Samson]

And Cuba are saying their vaccine is great, and uses a different technology to everyone else

Preprint data show that a three-dose combo of Soberana jabs has 92.4% efficacy in clinical trials.

Vérez Bencomo and his colleagues report that one of the institute’s vaccines, Soberana 02, is more than 90% effective in protecting against symptomatic COVID-19 infection when used in combination with a related vaccine. Importantly, the combination seems to be effective against the highly transmissible Delta variant of the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2, which has caused surges in hospitalizations and death across the world and now accounts for nearly all COVID-19 cases in Cuba.

As of 18 November, 89% of Cuba’s population — including children as young as 2 — has received at least one dose of Soberana 02 or another Cuban vaccine called Abdala, which is produced at the Center for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology (CIGB) in Havana. The centre reported in July that Abdala, a three-dose vaccine, was more than 92% effective in phase III trials that included more than 48,000 participants, but the full results have not yet been published.

In developing Soberana 02, Vérez Bencomo’s group drew on its existing ‘conjugate’ vaccine technology. Finlay’s conjugate vaccines take a protein or a sugar from a bacterium or virus and chemically link it to a harmless fragment of a neurotoxin protein from the tetanus bacterium. The combination elicits a stronger immune response than either component alone. Conjugate vaccines against meningitis and typhoid are used around the world, and Cuba has been immunizing children with a vaccine of this type for years.

Vérez Bencomo’s team adapted conjugate-vaccine technology to tackle COVID-19 by linking the tetanus-toxin protein to a portion, known as the receptor binding domain (RBD), of SARS-CoV-2’s spike protein (the spike protein helps the virus to enter cells). After more than 14,000 people received two doses of the vaccine in a phase III trial, recipients’ risk of symptomatic COVID-19 was reduced by 71%, compared with that of a placebo group of the same size — an efficacy similar to jabs made by Johnson & Johnson (J&J) in New Brunswick, New Jersey, and AstraZeneca in Cambridge, UK.

To improve on this protection, the Finlay team also gave participants a third shot. The researchers had previously tested a jab called Soberana Plus on people already sick from COVID-19 and found that it improved their immune response2. So they gave Soberana Plus, which is based on the RBD protein alone, to another set of 14,000 participants who had already received two Soberana 02 doses — and discovered that the third dose raised overall efficacy to 92.4%.

Protein-based vaccines like Soberana 02 and Abdala might have some advantages over other vaccine types, says Craig Laferrière, head of vaccine development at Novateur Ventures in Toronto, Canada, who has been comparing the safety and efficacy of COVID-19 jabs. Unlike the messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines produced by Pfizer, based in New York City, and Moderna, based in Cambridge, Masschusetts, protein vaccines do not need to be kept at extremely low temperatures, making them easier to deliver to remote areas.

And they could have fewer side effects than AstraZeneca’s and J&J’s vaccines, which use an adenovirus to deliver the gene for a different portion of the RBD into cells and have been linked to blood clots. Although Finlay’s medRxiv manuscript (which is not peer reviewed) does not contain extensive clinical data, Laferrière expects Soberana 02’s side effects will be minimal, because fewer than 1% of participants in the phase III trial developed a fever. Veréz-Bencomo says further data will be published soon.
​

Writeup Paper (pre-print, not peer reviewed)

 

[red_elk]

Soberana would be a good name for anti-hangover drug.
Cuba has pretty good healthcare actually, and 92% efficacy doesn't look unrealistic.