Coronavirus, now treatable with ForXthia!

[Kyriakos]

I know it's a bit of a tangent, but payment processes are generally protected for obvious reasons. There's a whole process to be followed to even allow payment through an app in the first place. Trust me when I say "just tweaking the price on click" is something that's less possible than you might speculate.

I am sure you are correct. I am not at all familiar with hacking...

 

[The_J]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04099-6

Mental health concerns during the COVID-19 pandemic as revealed by helpline calls

Abstract

Mental health is an important component of public health, especially in times of crisis. However, monitoring public mental health is difficult because data are often patchy and low-frequency1,2,3. Here we complement established approaches by using data from helplines, which offer a real-time measure of ‘revealed’ distress and mental health concerns across a range of topics4,5,6,7,8,9. We collected data on 8 million calls from 19 countries, focusing on the COVID-19 crisis. Call volumes peaked six weeks after the initial outbreak, at 35% above pre-pandemic levels. The increase was driven mainly by fear (including fear of infection), loneliness and, later in the pandemic, concerns about physical health. Relationship issues, economic problems, violence and suicidal ideation, however, were less prevalent than before the pandemic. This pattern was apparent both during the first wave and during subsequent COVID-19 waves. Issues linked directly to the pandemic therefore seem to have replaced rather than exacerbated underlying anxieties. Conditional on infection rates, suicide-related calls increased when containment policies became more stringent and decreased when income support was extended. This implies that financial relief can allay the distress triggered by lockdown measures and illustrates the insights that can be gleaned from the statistical analysis of helpline data.

I guess that's kinda unexpected.

 

[Kyriakos]

Yes, it is highly unexpected that if the state gives you money, you will feel less insecure.

I don't think anyone would seriously claim that depression or other mental illness issues are falling due to covid measures. Giving people money isn't something which has an effect because the occasion is covid (I know, it is time for really insightful commentary).

I firmly am of the view that mental illness will explode as a result of all this. As for job losses - they are massive, at least in many countries, as a direct result of vaccinated vs non-vaccinated, lockdowns etc. Maybe some of those who lost their work will take the time to study and will better themselves. The other 99% doesn't matter

Btw, @The_J , this isn't against you. Only against your avatar in the Covidcraft MMO.

 

[amadeus]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04099-6


I guess that's kinda unexpected.

What about it do you find unexpected? I don’t mean an accusatory tone in any sense with the question.

 

[Takhisis]

*Takhisis gathers data*

Didier Raoult, promoter of hydroxychloroquine, is now accused of falsifying data to promote his wonder cure.

This wonder medication was hailed by Donald Trump, Jair Bolsonaro and Nicolás Maduro.
All three of them have ‘liberal democracy’ as their greatest enemy.
Of the three, Trump and Maduro have explicit backing from Vladimir Putin.

And from @innonimatu.


Interesting, eh?

 

[innonimatu]

The Netherlands had announced a partial lockdown (meaning closure of restaurants, bars, cinemas, etc, but only from 20h) on Monday, and yesterday evening there were violent protests in Rotterdam, cars burning, seven people injured, big groups arrested, police from all around the country.

After 5 days of no bars and restaurants in the evening. And you want to close properly down the whole continent for months.

Around the world apparently.

They had riots in Australia, NZ a minority just ignored the rules. Plague rats refused to co operate with contact tracing.

They didn't have riots in NZ when there was a rational, well defined end goal behind the lockups: extinguish and go back to normal life.

The problem with these lockups is that they have no end. It's like live went to horsehocky, live like that forever. There is no exit strategy.

Controlling borders in the sense of "keep out those nasty foreign migrants!" is popular. Controlling borders in the sense of stopping people flying off somewhere sunny for a holiday is not, at all. People only actually support border restrictions being applied to others - not themselves. Thanks to budget air travel, this is not some tiny rich minority of the population that travels as you inaccurately claim. Sticking with the example of the UK, more than half the population took at least one overseas vacation in 2019. And that fraction hasn't shrunk anywhere near as much as you'd expect over the last two years. The political and public support for a complete shutdown of foreign travel is near zero. It was never more than a minority view even at the start of the first wave.

The people on vacation migrate en masse to the south of Europe, North Africa or a few archipelagos. As soon as Europe makes an effort to eradicate, so will there - to continue in the tourism business. Border closures need only be temporary - until the countries on either side prove themselves capable at keeping the virus eradicated.

Tourists from the UK would have destinations soon enough if the UK took the lead in eradicating. Someone has to take that lead.

 

[The_J]

In theory good, but the point was that public support for this is missing (probably rightfully).

What about it do you find unexpected? I don’t mean an accusatory tone in any sense with the question.

So the main result is that the helplines get mainly calls regarding the pandemic and loneliness, but not due to everything else, which was more prevalent before. I'd not have expected that, I'd have expected everything to skyrocket.

 

[stfoskey12]

I really wish I could believe that. But I can't. Because this damn virus does not cause immunity after infection. Neither infection nor vaccines will prevent recurrent infections. Thus recurrent waves. Imo this virus is more likely to mutate into something worse than to fade into relative harmlessness. It's already too bad as it is (the repeated lockdowns and all the problems they cause...), it can get much worse. It's an insane damage to keep accepting, and an insane risk to take. Society hasn't collapse yet, but it can't hold doing this again and again and again.

The lack of sync in waves between south and north in the US had nothing to do with vaccines, and possibly little with mask mandates. I hazard a guess that it was mostly due to how people congregate. This virus seems seasonal, but it may be because people are usually more outside - well ventilated spaces - in summer. And congregate in Winter in enclosed spaces. I'm seeing it here: people closing windows because it's cold, restaurants moving indoors... cases spike.
The south in the US is possibly too hot for people to live the summer out in the open, and instead they get closed indoors with air-conditioning?

I think these guys have it right (on Germany, but it applies elsewhere) on at least one one of the reasons we're seeing all this government incompetence in fighting covid. The wealthy are making a killing on the pandemic. The economy is being trashed, but the wealthy are getting wealthier, increasing the gap with the plebs. Not ending the pandemic seems a good thing to them...

We happen to agree that these repeated lockdowns are not sustainable. But without lockdowns the virus gets out of control, in urban areas at least formal lockdowns become unavoidable several times a year or order collapses. The fact that the "no more lockdowns" politicians kept doing more lockdowns when hospitals overflowed shows this.

The vaccine is not ending the lockdowns in Europe. Boosters of the same vaccine cannot change that. It's the same thing. There is only one sure and proven way to be rid of this and back to normal life: eradicate the virus.

On the ongoing ivermectin debates (or dirty frights, depends), a piece worth reading for the effort, self-awareness and political awareness of the thing.
I think the guy's naive about the success of vaccines - they haven't ended the pandemic. And his worm hypothesis is just that - one more hypothesis for now. But a good question for research. When one can't actually research to sort this out, far better to look at the available data, think and perhaps find further questions than making useless political wars on this.

Booster shots just got approved for all adults over 18. I feel like getting a booster every 6-8 months solves all these waning immunity problems. Even without them, the vaccines are helpful. Of people I know in the 18-40 age group, those with 2 doses who got a breakthrough infection had cold or flu like symptoms and then recovered. Many of those who got sick before they could get vaccinated felt sicker than they'd ever felt, lost significant muscle mass, or still can't smell properly after a year. My point of that is that we're not all the way back to zero yet when these boosters are getting authorized, so we may have even better protection three months after our third dose than we got three months after our second dose. I also know way more people who were careful but got Covid pre-vaccine than who were not careful and got a breakthrough infection.
You're right that weather plays a role in how the pandemic spreads. But heavily vaccinated northern states like Vermont and Massachusetts are doing better than less vaccinated states like Michigan and North Dakota. New Hampshire and Maine have high vaccination rates and high hospitalization rates, but they have much lower natural immunity than the rest of the country.

Plus, once antivirals get approved, that should reduce the number of antivaxxers who become hospitalized or die. I think stopping transmission is a fool's errand, so we should just accept that everyone could get Covid at some point, and give them the tools to fight it off properly.

I don't know why Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona are doing so badly right now. But their vaccination rates still aren't great AFAIK.

 

[Arwon]

Booster shots just got approved for all adults over 18. I feel like getting a booster every 6-8 months solves all these waning immunity problems. Even without them, the vaccines are helpful. Of people I know in the 18-40 age group, those with 2 doses who got a breakthrough infection had cold or flu like symptoms and then recovered.

Jury still seems to be out on whether this is going to be a periodic jab like the flu vax, or one with a multiple but finite course of jabs over a period of time like diphtheria.

 

[Zardnaar]

They didn't have riots in NZ when there was a rational, well defined end goal behind the lockups: extinguish and go back to normal life.

The problem with these lockups is that they have no end. It's like live went to ****, live like that forever. There is no exit strategy.



The people on vacation migrate en masse to the south of Europe, North Africa or a few archipelagos. As soon as Europe makes an effort to eradicate, so will there - to continue in the tourism business. Border closures need only be temporary - until the countries on either side prove themselves capable at keeping the virus eradicated.

Tourists from the UK would have destinations soon enough if the UK took the lead in eradicating. Someone has to take that lead.

Once it escapes containment there is no end game. It would be foolish for a politician to promise that. Ours didn't.

People don't want to hear that though and they use lockdowns once hospital systems start to get overloaded when 1/3rd to 2/rds don't get vaxxed or comply with restrictions there's no point trying to eliminate.

 

[Birdjaguar]

@innonimatu You said:

The lack of sync in waves between south and north in the US had nothing to do with vaccines, and possibly little with mask mandates. I hazard a guess that it was mostly due to how people congregate. This virus seems seasonal, but it may be because people are usually more outside - well ventilated spaces - in summer. And congregate in Winter in enclosed spaces. I'm seeing it here: people closing windows because it's cold, restaurants moving indoors... cases spike.
The south in the US is possibly too hot for people to live the summer out in the open, and instead they get closed indoors with air-conditioning?

Whether or climate is not the reason for the differences between north and south. It is regional politics. The southern US is not like southern AZ where it is too hot be outside much of the day. Hot and sticky is what living in the south is all about. Homes and businesses may have AC but that does not confine folks indoors during the day. The south is Trump country and they follow his lead: fake cures are good and vaccines are bad; The rural south is mired in ongoing ignorance.

I don't know why Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona are doing so badly right now. But their vaccination rates still aren't great AFAIK.

As for NM we have a few hundred thousand anti vaxxers who won't be told by a democratic governor that they need to stay home or wear a mask. For them life is normal and just fine. They go where they want without regard for anyone else. If a store owner tells them to mask up, they get all "FU and mind your own business." A group of them have put out petitions to call for a "citizen's grand Jury" to indict her for her covid mandates.

 

[amadeus]

The real unmasking is of the phony rights crowd. How’s it phony? You tell me.

Jerk: my rights!
Store: please wear a mask in the store.
Jerk: my rights!
Boss: get vaccinated or you’re fired.
Jerk: my rights!

What of the rights of the store, or of the company? What of the privileges endowed by the public to the state? Joe Biden didn’t get in the White House through an arm-wrestling contest.

Their participation in civil society isn’t coerced, it’s voluntary. They want to go live up in a wood shack? Fine. Go away.

I’m sick of whiners. We don’t have all these goofballs here in Japan—a few, but not many. Guess what happened? Life went on!

Edit: I oughta start my own YouTube channel and start cybergrifting. How many logos do I need onscreen? I last counted five.

 

[innonimatu]

Booster shots just got approved for all adults over 18. I feel like getting a booster every 6-8 months solves all these waning immunity problems. Even without them, the vaccines are helpful. Of people I know in the 18-40 age group, those with 2 doses who got a breakthrough infection had cold or flu like symptoms and then recovered. Many of those who got sick before they could get vaccinated felt sicker than they'd ever felt, lost significant muscle mass, or still can't smell properly after a year. My point of that is that we're not all the way back to zero yet when these boosters are getting authorized, so we may have even better protection three months after our third dose than we got three months after our second dose. I also know way more people who were careful but got Covid pre-vaccine than who were not careful and got a breakthrough infection.
You're right that weather plays a role in how the pandemic spreads. But heavily vaccinated northern states like Vermont and Massachusetts are doing better than less vaccinated states like Michigan and North Dakota. New Hampshire and Maine have high vaccination rates and high hospitalization rates, but they have much lower natural immunity than the rest of the country.

As far as I can see from statistics there's a new wave spreading in the northern states in NA. But I can also see the new waves surging in countries and regions with very high vaccination rates here in Europe. Before the year is out the foolishness of the current policy will be obvious. At a terrible cost, because political decision-makers will continue to deny the obvious, unwilling to admit a mistake. This will be one dark winter. Neither natural immunity nor vaccines will prevent this disaster. Because immunity wanes. And covid seems to gets worse on reinfections when it breaks through. There is no way this virus is going to "lose potency" with time. This one's a killer pandemic, the stuff of civilization collapse.
Avoid covid at all costs. Get away from both the fools who feel safe having had the vaccine and the fools who dismiss covid as just a nasty flu. This will get worse.

Once it escapes containment there is no end game. It would be foolish for a politician to promise that. Ours didn't.

They can't promise that, you really believe that?

Then they should surrender to the first group that manufactures an enhanced deadly flu virus. Any well-tweaked bioweapon is, by that logic, unstoppable - nothing the government can do!

That's a lie motivated by a toxic mix of idiocy, incompetence, and (wrongly assessed) self-interested among people making decisions. The wealthy are riding this pandemic like thieves and thing they can keep riding it, while escaping its health and societal effects. They're wrong. Not defeating against this virus (which I don't believe is, but might as well be, a biological weapon) has one end game: society collapsing. It will get worse, more deadly, and people will withdraw from society, trust having collapsed. This must be tackled while there is still organization and trust to do the job.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's to late about it the trust. It's been undermined over the last 40 odd years.

 

[innonimatu]

It's to late about it the trust. It's been undermined over the last 40 odd years.

This certainly wouldn't have gone the same way 40 years ago. The virus would have been crushed quickly, closing borders when necessary a non-issue.

 

[amadeus]

This certainly wouldn't have gone the same way 40 years ago. The virus would have been crushed quickly, closing borders when necessary a non-issue.

Like HIV.

 

[Zardnaar]

This certainly wouldn't have gone the same way 40 years ago. The virus would have been crushed quickly, closing borders when necessary a non-issue.

Probably more like 60 years ago.

More social pressure to vaccinate, no social media. Less international mass travel.

Still would fail to contain it but minimize the death toll.

 

[Gorbles]

"It would've been crushed 40 years ago".

You mean like polio was, with (70 years ago when it was first pioneered) radical, near-untested vaccines? Which people died from the rollout of?

Or how about the Great Influenza Epidemic, a hundred years ago. Which still ran the course of two years at the time, and we still have flu jabs now, in 2021?

I'm not sure these examples are going to help in the way inno wants, but hey.

 

[KingVercingetorix]

Their participation in civil society isn’t coerced, it’s voluntary. They want to go live up in a wood shack? Fine. Go away.

What do you think would happen to a country if 10/20/30% of the workforce decided to simultaneously channel their inner Thoreau/McCandless/Kaczynski/Proenneke? Would this loss of labour be more damaging to society than having unvaccinated people be part of society? Dow Jones and Nasdaq are doing pretty well right now, people with investments are making money. Be the instigator of a sudden loss of production and watch SHTF.

Now, I'm sure your bias would leave you to believe the unvaccinated are low IQ, probably unemployed or low income. Fantastic. There won't be a SHTF situation. I however want to play devil's advocate. Maybe there is one highly skilled heart surgeon who has saved many lives throughout his career. He hasn't received his C19 vaccine. Would banishing him to Walden's Pond save more lives than those saved from surgery? I'm in a very fortunate position where I don't have a bias. I know there are intelligent people who got their vaccine. I know there are intelligent people who won't. I know from the private property freakout videos and the constant goalpost moving that each side have their midwits.

 

[MrCynical]

This certainly wouldn't have gone the same way 40 years ago. The virus would have been crushed quickly, closing borders when necessary a non-issue.

Well it would have been significantly easier 40 years ago with no social media to let contrarian views fester, and for the ignorant to convince themselves that they know better than the experts based on "doing their own research". Also 40 years ago diseases like polio were much fresher in living memory, along with the memory of the colossal difference that the discovery of vaccines to prevent them made. But the virus would not have been crushed quickly - we don't need to speculate here, we can look at the actual historical examples.

The obvious case study for this period would be the "Hong Kong flu" pandemic of 1968 - 1970. Death toll on this one is a bit disputed due to issues with lack of data in China, but was definitely over a million world wide. There was a vaccine produced, although in was only ever deployed on a small scale.

This was a significantly smaller pandemic than Covid, but a lot of the events and issues are rather familiar. But closing borders? Can't find any evidence that was done to anything resembling the degree you suggest in 1968. Even going back further to 1918 the Spanish Flu there wasn't the kind of complete border closure you suggest. Australia and a few small island nations attempted it, but mostly just delayed rather than prevented the pandemic effecting them. But for the rest of the world, in the aftermath of world war 1, international travel was at record highs.

You seem to be appealing to some entirely fictional historical competence in handling pandemics, which has never existed in reality.