Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
You don't think a country, or even a city, has the right to prohibit nuclear weapons from entering?
NZ ships banned from Pearl Harbour
- Thread starter otago
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MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Should NZ be concerned of an attack from the USA?
wilycoyote
King
Don't you think America has the right to keep the Kiwis out of Pearl Harbor?
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Given the difficulty with keeping the Japanese out, you never can be too careful.
History_Buff
Deity
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Of course they do. But the reason why they do so is important. If there was a bona fide reason to keep them out, then great. If they're doing it out of spite, then grow up.
Should they really invite the Kiwi's to the party, then not let them play with the other kids?
No. The Kiwi's want to keep nuclear materials out of their waters. I'm not sure it's a policy I'd support, but it seems like a reasonable enough concern.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Why? Do they think they will engage in a "sneak attack" without even a single nuke?
The Kiwis are finally engaging in this joint military exercise for the first time since they first took an unprecedented heroic stand against nukes decades ago. Don't you think it is time for the American generals and the politicians to stop acting like two-year-olds?
wilycoyote
King
If I wanted to continue to play your game I would ask, do the Kiwis think that American nuclear reactors or missiles were made in China and susceptible to unplanned explosion? Why else would NZ care if these things entered their territory? Or better yet, do they think America wanted to be in one of their ports before launching nukes at their cities?
My point is everything you say about one side in this debate can be said of the other. This isn't important, it isn't a true snub (like when Netanyahu tried visiting the White House a year or so ago).
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Only that is obviously not the reason why the Kiwis are banning any nuclear vessel or one that is carrying nuclear weapons. It is their country and they should have the right to set whatever rules they wish in this regard. It isn't arbitrary or childish in the least for them to do so, just as it isn't with Vancouver, Canada and Kobe, Japan to do the same thing.
In the same vein, the US military can continue to look like spoiled brats by denying them entry into Pearl Harbor or any other US military base for no reason other than spite.
In the same vein, the US military can continue to look like spoiled brats by denying them entry into Pearl Harbor or any other US military base for no reason other than spite.
wilycoyote
King
The US position isn't arbitrary. They didn't ban Canada. They banned the nation with the anti-nuclear law.
If it is childish, which it maybe, so is the Kiwi law, in some eyes. That is because, as you said, no one is worried about a nuclear explosion in a Kiwi port due to the presence of US ships.
It is funny though that the only nation to attack the port and another that probably has a nuclear weapon aimed at the port, both are allowed in.
This isn't about spite, it is more like conditioning.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Why is that funny? They are obviously adults in this regard who are still no longer fighting WWII or the Cold War.
And do you really think the Russians or the Chinese have any nuclear weapons "aimed" at New Zealand? Why in the world would they possibly do so?
And do you really think the Russians or the Chinese have any nuclear weapons "aimed" at New Zealand? Why in the world would they possibly do so?
wilycoyote
King
It is funny for obvious reasons. The Kiwi law seems less important than a Japanese attack or Russian nuclear threat.
I don't understand where you are coming from with your second question. My answer though is that I doubt it. Allowing NZ to survive a nuclear world war would change nothing in a global political sense.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
It is a good thing the Cold War is actually over now given how many Americans seem to be more than willing to believe it continues even today.
But look at one of the purposes of Rimpac. It is a saber-rattling exercise towards China to keep them in line so they will think twice about invading Taiwan, as though the participation by a few vessels from other navies was really important compared to the US military. What is ironic is that they are actually official "observers".
But look at one of the purposes of Rimpac. It is a saber-rattling exercise towards China to keep them in line so they will think twice about invading Taiwan, as though the participation by a few vessels from other navies was really important compared to the US military. What is ironic is that they are actually official "observers".
wilycoyote
King
What? Cold War? I think you are filling in the blanks with your own feelings. I never said, nor do I think that.
China has been invited in the past to RIMPAC. Thus, I don't think this event is directed at them anymore than it is directed at anyone else that may be involved in a Pacific war. I think it is entirely about deterring anyone from warring in the region.
DroopyTofu
Double Bass Double Bass
They can, I guess. But there's no particular reason too. Besides, if they're so afraid of nuclear weapons, wouldn't the US be doing them a favor by keeping them away from the dangerous nuclear ships in Pearl Harbor? Maybe this is all for the Kiwis' own safety.
Patroklos
Deity
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It is not out of spite, it is out of a very real degradation in the ability of the US to sustain operations in that part of the world despite NZ nominally being included and protected by US and other allied relationships and benefiting in a very real way from the Pax Americana, especially as a nation dependent on maritime access.
So despite benifiting from US nuclear arms they are being childish by waxing poetic about being anti nuclear. To be blunt, they are delusional hypocrites.
The only consequence was the US following suit to make NZ stupid decision have a real impact on themselves which is really no cosequence at all. US ports are so far away and the NZ fleet so small there is virtually no reason they would ever encounter this difficulty.
NZ normally doesn't participate period, not because NZ doesn't want to but because they are not invited, so they should be happy they were allowd to be there at all. They got all the military benefit of the exercise itself, so the most childish thing is to whine about this non inconvenience of docking at a civilian site. They were there for the exercise, not the docking.
Pat, you do not get it do you, we will not be bullied into changing one of our policies made law by our parliament.
You have tried that approach and it does not and will not work with us, the reason we have kept the law even with a right wing government in power is because of the US Navies approach.
Is the US navy under civilian control ? because from here they seem to be acting like a Sovereign state.
Oh, and do try to be accurate, nuclear armed or propelled vessels from ALL countries are banned, ALL conventional powered Naval vessels are welcome.
This bloke sums it up well.
Petty, petulant and pathetic
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10817154
I think the delusional thought is that we would actually want to dock in New Zealand. I mean, Australia is right there, and they have kangaroos. That's like 10 bonus points in their favor.
