Rhye's of Europe Organized Development Thread

st.lucifer said:

If you have better ideas for how things should work, we'd love to hear them. Criticism with suggestions for improvement is useful, and could make this mod better. The other kind just lumps you in with the great terrorist guy.

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I think you're making two mistakes in your planning:

1- the timeframe that was chosen suggests for the choice of HRE vs Germany. Already RFC is not entirely consistent with this, but I must say that at least the timeframe does include Germany itself and that the expansion UHV goals of Germany in RFC can be thought in 2 parts, a first period of HRE expansion and a second period of Germany's expansion. Also, Germany is not so big on the World Map, but the HRE is indeed quite a big part of Europe. Lastly, but this is the same as saying that Germany is out of the timeframe, the UB and UU of Germany would never kick in (unlike HRE's).
2- the HRE can exist at the same time with Austria, Netherlands, Burgundy, and Switzerland. In fact it can be one of its goals to control (including vassalization of course) all these areas, and viceversa one of the goals of the above countries could be independance.

Btw by the same reasoning I'm wondering how do you plan to include France, Burgundy and Netherlands at the same time. At least 50% of Netherlands was Burgundy if I'm not wrong. If you remove this part, and consider that Burgundy "mainland" would be squeezed among Switzerland and France the situation gets kinda redudant as well. The real answer is that they don't all come at the same time, just like Babylon, Persia, Arabia and Turkey in Middle Eastern RFC.

onedreamer said:

I think you're making two mistakes in your planning:

1- the timeframe that was chosen suggests for the choice of HRE vs Germany. Already RFC is not entirely consistent with this, but I must say that at least the timeframe does include Germany itself and that the expansion UHV goals of Germany in RFC can be thought in 2 parts, a first period of HRE expansion and a second period of Germany's expansion. Also, Germany is not so big on the World Map, but the HRE is indeed quite a big part of Europe. Lastly, but this is the same as saying that Germany is out of the timeframe, the UB and UU of Germany would never kick in (unlike HRE's).
2- the HRE can exist at the same time with Austria, Netherlands, Burgundy, and Switzerland. In fact it can be one of its goals to control (including vassalization of course) all these areas, and viceversa one of the goals of the above countries could be independence.

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Good point. I was thinking that we'd change the German UHV, UU, etc, but your argument is sensible. Do we combine them into one dynamic civ, and have Germany as the later incarnation of the HRE, then?

onedreamer said:

Btw by the same reasoning I'm wondering how do you plan to include France, Burgundy and Netherlands at the same time. At least 50% of Netherlands was Burgundy if I'm not wrong. If you remove this part, and consider that Burgundy "mainland" would be squeezed among Switzerland and France the situation gets kinda redudant as well. The real answer is that they don't all come at the same time, just like Babylon, Persia, Arabia and Turkey in Middle Eastern RFC.

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You're not wrong. There was a Lower Burgundy which was closer to the Piedmont/Savoy area, and starting them down there rather than in Alsace/Lorraine would fill some of the vacuum in France, but I'm not sure about the best way to handle it. I must admit that I'm not really clear on Burgundian history - I believe that Mitsho proposed their inclusion and argued for it - and I've questioned the inclusion of the Swiss on similar grounds. Should we rethink the civ list? Rethink the map?

well, Umarth objection (which as such I consider constructive criticism, in fact to be constructive does not mean that a suggestion/solution must be proposed together with a critic, but just point out something that probably is wrong) was that it is in the plans to include several "small" italian states while most of central europe will be under the single flag of HRE/Germany. The fact that Switzerland, Netherlands and Austria are in the plans suggests that HRE would not be so comprehensive though, and I would add that the Kingdom of Sicily and Venice have pretty clear distinctive cultural traits, while the german HRE states were nothing more than noble houses possessions, the symbol of feudalism, because actually they were sharing the same culture, and because of this I think it is safe to make one of them and call them HRE (especially since even if largely autonomous after the Reform and the war of the 30 years they were still seen as the HRE from the outside powers). Before the Napoleon wars we should talk of HRE and not Germany, why change Germany's UB and UU while we can simply take HRE's and call the civ HRE ? I don't see anything bad with this. Since the timeframe is max 1800 or max 1900, I don't think there's a need to reincarnate HRE into Germany (especially if 1800 is chosen).

On Burgundy, I think it can safely exist. It should spawn in Bourgogne / Lyonnais and should aim to expand in the Low Countries (as a UHV probably). But it could easily fall to France. Netherlands would spawn later and take over the Low Countries.

On Switzerland, I think it's really a designing challenge. It can exist and has reasons to exist, but implementing it won't be easy. I'm unsure what UHV it could have, probably something similar to Japan, which means isolationism and trying to keep indipendance, but while Japan in RFC can have at least 4 cities, I can't picture a Switzerland bigger than 2 cities if we want to be historically consistent... I'm not sure though, Mitsho input is needed

PS: I wanted to add one thing. We have a proposed Civ list now, so I think it's ok to talk of the hardest ones to implement. Because obviously if there's a technical reason that makes it too hard to implement one of them, it should be scrapped in favor of something else, and before is better than later.

I have objections to an HRE civ. It was a title, not a civilization, and that title bounced all around europe, including belonging to the King of Spain (Charles I of Spain, Charles V of the HRE). As such, it would be fun to implement it as a title that (catholic) civs can compete for. The complaint that there aren't enough civs in the German area should be distinguished from the "what, there's no HRE?" complaint. The first should be considered and if possible rectified. The latter should be answered "of course there isn't".

Now, if we want to give a "Germanic States" civ some competition in Germany beyond what they're going to be getting from Austria, we could add Teutonic Order -> Prussia. That would give us a civ in western and eastern germany (of course, the Teutonic Order will also be wanting to slug it out with Poland, but the Germanic States are probably going to end up slugging it out with France and the Netherlands).

My intention all along has been to give the Landsnechkt UU to the Germanic States civ. I'm not sure about the UB, but Rathaus doesn't strike me as appropriate for the HRE in the normal game, much less in this. We have a loose confederacy of feudal lords who elect a king to rule over them (Germany), they shouldn't have a UB that makes it easy to expand (representing centralized law), because that's completely ahistorical. In fact, if anyone should have a courthouse UB, its Norman England (who established the first organized bureaucratic state in medieval europe).

Starting Burgundy in (south) western france was also what i had envisioned. I'm not sure how much of modern france you're imagining "France" to occupy, at least at the start. Occitania (Aquitaine et al.) and Burgundy weren't french possessions for about half of the time period we're considering - France was something like a quarter of its current size.

And note, these space concerns are why I want a Large or Larger map, so Western Europe has enough space to be interesting.

Holy Roman Emperor was a title, Holy Roman Empire was a political entity, which usually is called "civ" in this game. It is also specifically a civ from the last expansion. At a time it was the main power in Europe. Both (the title and the country) gradually lost of importance, mainly because of its "extreme" feudal system, but this isn't the same as saying it was non existant. In fact it became the elective confederation with time, it wasn't born as such. The Rathaus represents very well the decentralization of power of this "civ". I doubt one could think of a more appropriate UB. Having the Teutonic Order, France or others in Germany is not desirable, and competing for the title of HRE would make of this mod sort of a EU conversion...
About having a bigger map, Europe spans from the Atlantic to the Urals, no more and no less, just because most of us have a western-european-centric education doesn't mean we should focus this scenario mainly on western europe, this is a worldwide forum so I think it won't be hard to find help with eastern europe to make it interesting if need be.

PS: courthouses represent decentralization of power from my point of view. It's a legal authority opened far from the capital. It allows for faster expansion, exactly, which is usually achieved by decentralized empires (and I might add, Empires which grew were forced to gradually decentralize power, of course). Ultimately, it even provides espionage points, definitely in sinergy with what was going on in the HRE.

onedreamer said:

Holy Roman Emperor was a title, Holy Roman Empire was a political entity, which usually is called "civ" in this game. It is also specifically a civ from the last expansion. At a time it was the main power in Europe.

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Holy Roman Empire was the name used to refer to whatever the holdings of the Holy Roman Emperor were. Similarly, the King of England at one point also held lordship over Normandy and Aquitaine. While one set of holdings had a name and the other didn't, the existence of a name for the one only occurs because the papacy created the title of Holy Roman Emperor, and awarded it to whomever it thought might do the best job protecting it from being taken over by another power (such as the Lombards, the Eastern Roman Empire, or a variety of others.) Eventually the papacy lost control of the title and it became hereditary. However, the holder of this title (and the lands associated thereof) bounced around europe quite a bit. In particular, after Charlemagne it eventually ended up with the Kings of Germany (as elected by the Electors), later in Spain (Charles V and Alfonso of Castile), and eventually held by the Duke of Austria. The King of England was at one point considered as a candidate for the title/position. This is not a civilization.

The term Holy Roman Empire applies only by transitivity to any particular body of land. We must track the Emperor to know where the empire was. In particular, here's a list of emperors with the territory they ruled:

Charlemagne (France + Germany + Northern Italy)
Louis the Pious (as above)
Lothair I (N. Italy)
Louis II (Italy)
Charles II the Bald (West Francia = France)
Charles III the Fat (as Charlemagne)
Guy III of Spoleto (Duke of Spoleto and Camerino, King of Italy)
Lambert II of Spoleto (King of Italy, Duke of Spoleto and Camerino)
Arnulf of Carinthia (East Francia = Germany)
Louis III the Blind (King of Provence and Italy)
Berengar of Friuli (Margrave of Friuli, King of Italy)
---~40 year break---
Otto I (Germany) (start Ottonian)
Otto II
Otto III
Henry II
Conrad II (Start Salian)
Henry III
Henry IV
Henry V
Lothair III (only Supplinburger)
Frederick I Barbarossa (start Hohenstaufens)
Henry VI
Otto IV of Brunswick (House of Welf)
Frederick II (Hohenstaufen)
---~60 year break---
Henry VII (Luxembourg)
Louis the Bavarian (House of Wittelsbach, back in Germany)
Charles IV (Luxembourg)
Sigismund (Luxembourg)
Maximilian I (start House of Habsburg, added Burgundy + Netherlands to their possession and was ruling there when appointed HRE)
Charles V (House of Habsburg, Spain!, last actual Holy Roman Emperor)
Ferdinand I (HoH, Austria)
Rudolf II (note: elected successor of Rudolf I, who was German King but not HRE, ruled Austria and Hungary)
+ more House of Habsburg (Austria) and one House of Wittelbach

So we've got a title which bounces between France and Germany (West and East Francia) and Italy, then finally settles itself in the German Kingdom (and it was at least nominally a kingdom then, although they elected their kings) before jumping to Spain and then Austria.

Note, we've contemplated calling Austria "House of Habsburg", which makes them a decent candidate as being the HRE civ.

Further note: King of Italy is hardly as glorious as it sounds, as they never ruled all of Italy, and generally only had authority in northern italy, and usually not even all of it.

Regardless, this clearly isn't a civ, as there were HREs who weren't King of Germany.

Both (the title and the country) gradually lost of importance, mainly because of its "extreme" feudal system, but this isn't the same as saying it was non existant. In fact it became the elective confederation with time, it wasn't born as such.

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The German Kingdom was an elective confederation. But they bestowed the title King of Germany, not Holy Roman Emperor. The pope bestowed that, and after Charles V most of them settled for Emperor-Elect and didn't bother to actually be coronated (and were therefore unable to use the title).

The Rathaus represents very well the decentralization of power of this "civ". I doubt one could think of a more appropriate UB. Having the Teutonic Order, France or others in Germany is not desirable, and competing for the title of HRE would make of this mod sort of a EU conversion...

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To me, courthouses represent the spreading of a voice of centralized authority and law to the city. The default state is decentralized government. In particular, large decentralized territories are plagued by inability of the nominal central power to exercise authority (such as collecting taxes), which is well represented by higher maintenance costs for not having a courthouse. Germany being a case in point. The local lords are skimming off the top, as it were. A strong centralized authority can crack down on local power and exert central control at a greater distance from the capital (ie, reduced maintenance). I'll note that the Normans spread their domination over England and into Wales at a fantastic rate because of their efficiency (and lots of strong castles) and despite a hostile populace. At least initially they also exerted direct control over local lords and cities (later reduced by such things as the Magna Carta).

About having a bigger map, Europe spans from the Atlantic to the Urals, no more and no less, just because most of us have a western-european-centric education doesn't mean we should focus this scenario mainly on western europe, this is a worldwide forum so I think it won't be hard to find help with eastern europe to make it interesting if need be.

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But there's a lot more relevant (to the foundations of industrial europe) action happening at a small scale in Western Europe. You'll note that the small modern countries in Eastern Europe (ie, the Balkans) aren't the areas anyone's actually talking about wanting to add civs. Mostly because those territories were historically controlled by other powers for much of their histories. And northern Eastern Europe tends to feature a larger average country size, with the smaller countries (Latvia/Lithuania/Estonia) either not being important enough to make civs or being bundled in to other civs with whom they've shared a long relationship (Poland-Lithuania). Ie, Important Eastern European civs control (and controlled) larger territories geographically than their western european counterparts. The dominant example of course being Russia who occupied about half of Europe at one point (ie, modern Russia + Ukraine + Belaruss + other former territories) if you count everything back to the Urals.

The only important historical power we don't have represented in central/eastern europe that i'm aware of is the Teutonic Order. (Which could easily morph into Prussia since its in the same location. Or can be treated as a civ in its own right.)

PS: courthouses represent decentralization of power from my point of view. It's a legal authority opened far from the capital. It allows for faster expansion, exactly, which is usually achieved by decentralized empires (and I might add, Empires which grew were forced to gradually decentralize power, of course). Ultimately, it even provides espionage points, definitely in sinergy with what was going on in the HRE.

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See above. Decentralized power is the default state. While expansion may be faster, the centralized power (ie, you, the player) doesn't necessarily benefit from it because you have only nominal control over those territories. In CivIV this is represented by your economy tanking.

And internal espionage isn't represented in-game at all. Decentralized authorities have terrible external spy networks because they're spending all their time on internal affairs. Towards the end of the period under consideration (ie, Louis XIV), the best spy network in Western Europe was almost certainly that of France, and it was probably superior to anything in eastern europe too.

As I said before, a UHV for Switzerland isn't hard to find. And please stop about the isolationism. We only stopped being expansionist, when the French King Francis I bribed half of the French army to go in 1515, for 3 years the Swiss had held Milano! You could go into the other direction too... Besides that, mercenaries and the archenemy Habsburg give great opportunities for a UHV, or the spread of Calvinism (Protestantism)....

Regarding the map. I fear it is becoming too big. ... Could you tell me the size of this map. RFC has 124x68, this map has arguably more? Thus we would need to have fewer civs... I still say we need another map with a larger "West" Europe or I don't know exactly. I just don't see it happening with this map. (But I will be glad when it will)

m

Mitsho I wasn't saying it would be hard to find a UHV for Switzerland, but rather that it may be hard to pull out one that is feasible with the others, achievable by the player, and not too hard to implement. But you are the expert after all, can you propose something more definite ?
I do think Switzerland has always been and still is quite isolationist. If you look at the EU political & monetary map for example, Switzerland is quite an island. This map is emblematic: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/European_Union_as_a_single_entity.png

@Onedreamer, please read my post again. Before 1515, Switzerland was very expansive. In 1648, it gained accepted independence and again stayed out of politics. Up until sometimes in the 19th century when the formal neutrality was decided (Bourbaki), Switzerland was an accepted minor player that didn't do much, politically. (but economically, we were always "expansive" in the interior)

So, you are right, Switzerland is isolationistic. But it wasn't in the timescale of the mod (or not more than others after 1515). For the UHV: Conquer Northern Italy (was tried by Swiss) or some more: Feasible ; Hire out xy mercenaries (feasible, historical); Found or Spread Calvinism/Protestantism: feasible, historical, What about this?

But I'd like not too talk to much

m

mitsho said:

As I said before, a UHV for Switzerland isn't hard to find. And please stop about the isolationism. We only stopped being expansionist, when the French King Francis I bribed half of the French army to go in 1515, for 3 years the Swiss had held Milano! You could go into the other direction too... Besides that, mercenaries and the archenemy Habsburg give great opportunities for a UHV, or the spread of Calvinism (Protestantism)....

Regarding the map. I fear it is becoming too big. ... Could you tell me the size of this map. RFC has 124x68, this map has arguably more? Thus we would need to have fewer civs... I still say we need another map with a larger "West" Europe or I don't know exactly. I just don't see it happening with this map. (But I will be glad when it will)

m

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mitsho,

when i plug it into notepad, i get 99x72, and we're cutting the last 16 tiles of that off to the east. so, large, but not unmanageable. i do want to put some more open water to the west so that the azores and canaries can be added, but that won't do anything for the amount of land involved. is everyone ok with the area i'm cutting? to describe it, it's everything east of modern-day syria, eliminating the caucasus, mesopotamia, and much of the desert in between. it takes out the area of russia that stretches from the convergence of the don and volga east to the urals. there's still room for russia to expand south, north, and west, but much less unproductive territory to the east.

in order to shift everything over to the east so i can add the azores/canaries, do i have to go through notepad and move everything over, or am i better off doing it in WB?

mitsho said:

@Onedreamer, please read my post again.

[...]

So, you are right, Switzerland is isolationistic. But it wasn't in the timescale of the mod (or not more than others after 1515). For the UHV: Conquer Northern Italy (was tried by Swiss) or some more: Feasible ; Hire out xy mercenaries (feasible, historical); Found or Spread Calvinism/Protestantism: feasible, historical, What about this?

But I'd like not too talk to much

m

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Ok, as I said you're the expert, and your first post didn't really say much. Why don't you want to talk btw ? According to your scheme, points 1,2,3 have been extensively discussed and I think there's almost a final solution for each of them, point 4 I would honestly invert it with point 5, because many units, buildings and even wonders depend on the civs.

Squirrelloid said:

The German Kingdom was an elective confederation. But they bestowed the title King of Germany, not Holy Roman Emperor. The pope bestowed that, and after Charles V most of them settled for Emperor-Elect and didn't bother to actually be coronated (and were therefore unable to use the title).

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Ok, so this is in essence your point. I'd agree if the name was switched from HRE to German Empire, but not to completely delete it and leave it open to conquest from France, Teutonic Order or Prussia. Although it can be their objective to do it.

Some maps (sorry if they're in italian)
The Empire with Charlemagne: http://www.silab.it/storia/as14/images/as14_3.jpg
Norman conquests: http://www.silab.it/storia/as15/images/as15b8a.jpg
English and French monarchies possessions (Kingdom = Regno, Domini del Re = possessions of the King): http://www.silab.it/storia/as18/images/as18d.jpg
German Empire with its borders in 1250 AD: http://www.silab.it/storia/as17/images/as17b1.jpg
Italy between Middle Age and Renaissance: http://www.silab.it/storia/as44/images/as44c.jpg
Europe at the end of Middle Ages (this map includes the majority of proposed civs): http://www.silab.it/storia/as16/images/as16q.jpg
The Empire with Charles V (XVI century): http://www.silab.it/storia/as22/images/as22c.jpg
(Religion) Reform and Counterreform: http://www.silab.it/storia/as24/images/as24d.jpg
XVI-XVII centuries: http://www.silab.it/storia/as23/images/as23a.jpg
XVIII century: http://www.silab.it/storia/as39/images/as39.jpg
French Revolution and Napoleon: http://www.silab.it/storia/as21/images/21intro.jpg

As you can see from most of these maps the German core of the Empire is always shown as a single entity from an international political point of view, until 1700, when it really starts disgregating and becomes a real confederacy in the last map. All your considerations are essentially true, but these maps are pretty clear, the feudal system in Germany was very accentuated and the various Lords had vast autonomy, but this doesn't change the fact that there was what we now call a nation there. Fact is that Nationalism had not yet been discovered so for the great part of the timespan of the mod, the Middle Age and beyond, we should speak of noble houses possessions (it's pretty clear also from the English-French possessions map), true, but this can't realistically be done in RFC, you should invent a completely different mod, or play Crusader Kings from Paradox. So we gotta be a little more open minded while still pragmatic and consider a wider range of factors in choosing civs and placing them on the map.

onedreamer said:

Ok, so this is in essence your point. I'd agree if the name was switched from HRE to German Empire, but not to completely delete it and leave it open to conquest from France, Teutonic Order or Prussia. Although it can be their objective to do it.

Some maps (sorry if they're in italian)
The Empire with Charlemagne: http://www.silab.it/storia/as14/images/as14_3.jpg
Norman conquests: http://www.silab.it/storia/as15/images/as15b8a.jpg
English and French monarchies possessions (Kingdom = Regno, Domini del Re = possessions of the King): http://www.silab.it/storia/as18/images/as18d.jpg
German Empire with its borders in 1250 AD: http://www.silab.it/storia/as17/images/as17b1.jpg
Italy between Middle Age and Renaissance: http://www.silab.it/storia/as44/images/as44c.jpg
Europe at the end of Middle Ages (this map includes the majority of proposed civs): http://www.silab.it/storia/as16/images/as16q.jpg
The Empire with Charles V (XVI century): http://www.silab.it/storia/as22/images/as22c.jpg
(Religion) Reform and Counterreform: http://www.silab.it/storia/as24/images/as24d.jpg
XVI-XVII centuries: http://www.silab.it/storia/as23/images/as23a.jpg
XVIII century: http://www.silab.it/storia/as39/images/as39.jpg
French Revolution and Napoleon: http://www.silab.it/storia/as21/images/21intro.jpg

As you can see from most of these maps the German core of the Empire is always shown as a single entity from an international political point of view, until 1700, when it really starts disgregating and becomes a real confederacy in the last map. All your considerations are essentially true, but these maps are pretty clear, the feudal system in Germany was very accentuated and the various Lords had vast autonomy, but this doesn't change the fact that there was what we now call a nation there. Fact is that Nationalism had not yet been discovered so for the great part of the timespan of the mod, the Middle Age and beyond, we should speak of noble houses possessions (it's pretty clear also from the English-French possessions map), true, but this can't realistically be done in RFC, you should invent a completely different mod, or play Crusader Kings from Paradox. So we gotta be a little more open minded while still pragmatic and consider a wider range of factors in choosing civs and placing them on the map.

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I guess my point here is that we already have this civ. It starts as Austrasia and becomes East Francia, then German Kingdom, and finally Germanic States. The dates of those transitions can of course be argued. (In particular, I may have listed a transition to Germanic States too early). I even recommended Frederick Barbarossa as the leader.

I'll also note it isn't actually feudal, as the King serves at the whim of the lords, not the lords serving at the whim of the king. Ie, they aren't his vassals. In a true feudal system the lords hold and rule territory because they have sworn to serve the king and rule that territory in his name. (At some point the nobility become/became hereditary, which altered this dynamic a little bit, but truly feudal systems assume by law that the above is true, even when the titles become hereditary).

I'm a bit puzzled, the Civ List has the HRE not Austrasia or East Francia etc.

Squirrelloid said:

I'll also note it isn't actually feudal, as the King serves at the whim of the lords, not the lords serving at the whim of the king. Ie, they aren't his vassals. In a true feudal system the lords hold and rule territory because they have sworn to serve the king and rule that territory in his name. (At some point the nobility become/became hereditary, which altered this dynamic a little bit, but truly feudal systems assume by law that the above is true, even when the titles become hereditary).

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When we're redoing civics, I suggest having 'Electorate' as a government civic. Quite a different thing than an absolute monarchy. I believe I had specs for it in an earlier post, but don't remember them off the top of my head.

I agree on the electorate as a civic. That is why we can have a HRE, and let's face it. the HRE really was Germany. As a common ground, we can call the civ the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation which really was the official name. Having one state with an electorate and a heavy feudalism/federalism civic is enough to represent it. You can start them early, let them grow to a giant and then break em down by the spawns of the Austrians, Netherlands, Swiss and so on...

So, what are the steps now that we have more or less agreed on the civs and on the basic map? Who is going to do the map? About the question what to do first, specify the civs (UP/UHV/ what basis --> quality of leader (I propose flags), uu and ub) or doing the tech tree. I think it depends, we can't really decide the UP and UHV without the techtree and units (go figure), but it is difficult as well to define the techtree out of the blue. I nevertheless think we should decide what we want to change at the tech tree and unit system, and then go look for how we can change it and who is going to do it... !!

m

st.lucifer's map seems to be quite well developed.

my idea on the tech tree is that it should include RFC ancient and classical age techs which will all, or almost all be known to the starting civs, maybe leave only a couple unknown which only Byzantium will known as "lost Roman knowledge" (could be their UP also). The techs can include buildings but not the religions nor the wonders. It should also include all MA and Renaissance techs, plus:
- some techs to represent the social and religious revolutions in Europe during the timeframe (many of these will likely include "regular" wonders).
- some techs to represent the colonial race (will include "colonial" wonders, I assume)
- some more military techs and maybe buildings to allow for a better detailed military evolution.

A good question is what do we do with religions. When the mod starts Christianity has already been founded, although some civs would probably still be "pagan" (Normans ?) and some other would be islamic. What would happen with Protestants, with the Reform and Counterreform... for example do we want these to be religions added to a city with Christianity, or should they substitute it ? (I'm more for the second choice).
One other thing I would like to see is a better feudal/vassalage system and a dynastic system... I have ideas but I think I will keep them for the last stage if you're interested... and I agree on flags (especially if the dynastic system is taken in consideration).

onedreamer said:

I'm a bit puzzled, the Civ List has the HRE not Austrasia or East Francia etc.

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This is the most recent proposed civ list, from the bottom of page 4:

Western Europe (4)
Kingdom of Neustria (500 AD) -> West Francia (840 AD) -> France (990 AD)
England (500 AD) -> Great Britain (1700 AD or by cities held?)
Netherlands (1050 AD)
Burgundy (500 AD)

Iberian Peninsula (3)
Kingdom of Asturias (720 AD) -> Leon (920 AD) -> Crown of Castile (1230 AD) -> Empire of Spain (1520 AD)
Portugal (1100 AD)
Al-Andalus (700 AD)

North & Central Europe (5)
Norse: Danes (500 AD) -> Calmar (?) -> Sweden (?)
Kingdom of Austrasia (500 AD) -> East Francia (840 AD) -> Kingdom of Germany (920 AD) -> Germanic States (1260 AD)
Lechia (970 AD) -> Poland (???) -> Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (1570 AD)
Austria/House of Habsburg (1160 AD or 1280 AD)
Old Swiss Confederacy (1290 AD) -> Switzerland (1650 AD?)

Eastern Europe (5)
Eastern Roman Empire (500 AD)
Republic of Novgorod (860 AD) -> Grand Duchy of Moscow (1150 AD?) -> Russia (1500 AD)
Magyars (900 AD) -> Kingdom of Hungary (1000 AD)
Ottoman Empire (1300 AD)
Umayyad Caliphate (660 AD) -> Abbasid Caliphate (750 AD) -> Fatimid Caliphate (970 AD) -> Ayyubid Dynasty (1170 AD) -> Mamluk Sultanate (1250 AD)

Italy (2)
Papal States (500 AD)
Republic of Venetia (800 AD)

Additional Candidates:
Kiev (860 AD?) -> Ukraine? (???)
Republic of Genoa (1000 AD)
Kingdom of Sicily (1000 AD)

There has been some little productive discussion following this, primarily recommending Austria start at 1160, and possibly making Kingdom of Sicily be "The Normans" with a joint N. France/Italy army start. It has also been argued that the Kingdom of Sicily doesn't deserve to be included. And I suppose proposed that the Teutonic Order could fit in a Europe with all these countries.

The information on the RFC Wiki should be considered out of date as of the start of this thread. As Vince-G has not made an appearance in some time, and he's the only one who can alter the initial posts, no further updates have been made there. As such, finding out what the most recent proposal is requires searching the thread, sadly. (Note, the only other mildly recent proposal was Mitsho's, and the above is a merger of my initial proposal and his + responses to feedback elsewhere in the thread).

So now I'm confused - if you thought the civ list had HRE, why would you argue for including HRE as a civ? (And which civ list are you looking at?)

Anyway, I was waiting for consensus on 'additional civs' to be made "official", or additional proposals to be candidates for inclusion before altering the wiki page.

Edit:
Actually, this thread is starting to suffer from a lack of focus - should we create new threads, one for each particular aspect. And have someone responsible for each thread so it can stay updated?

Threads needed at this point
(1) Map discussion
(2) Civ List discussion i'd be willing to take responsibility for this one
(3) New Gameplay Features

If Vince-G doesn't make an appearance soon, we should also make a new index thread which, among other things, can link the sub-threads in the first post so people can find everything.

Squirrelloid said:

Edit:
Actually, this thread is starting to suffer from a lack of focus - should we create new threads, one for each particular aspect. And have someone responsible for each thread so it can stay updated?

Threads needed at this point
(1) Map discussion
(2) Civ List discussion i'd be willing to take responsibility for this one
(3) New Gameplay Features

If Vince-G doesn't make an appearance soon, we should also make a new index thread which, among other things, can link the sub-threads in the first post so people can find everything.

Click to expand...

Agreed. I'll start up a map thread - I'd like specific input if possible. I'm working through the agonizing process of transposing the map to remove Mesopotamia and add the Azores/Canaries, and any input on resource placement, city tags, or other things is welcome. I'd also like some input on changing some luxuries and food resources to reflect regional realities.