To really gimp an AI, give them Stone

Bostock · Feb 18, 2009

I'm starting to think that early access to wonder resources really gimps an AI vulnerable to rushing or boxing-in. First the recent online game where Joao behaved oddly after starting by stone, and now the game attached to this post... Rags is no wonder-whore, but in this game he built both Pyramids and HG instead of more archers/chariots/HA's (I accidentally monopolized the metals -- despite Chicago being founded pre-IW -- during my Not So Rapid Expansion)! The only thing he did right was frustratingly rapid expansion of his own, but ultimately he wonderwhored his way to his doom.

(PS Any thoughts on the choice between going Buddhist for happiness/civics and staying NSR so as to avoid trouble when/if Blue meets Pink? I will be ravaging Byzantium either way.)

futurehermit · Feb 18, 2009

It makes sense, in a way. If the human wonderspams a critical onlooker might say "what dumb AI, if it were a human they would come in and crush the other human's shiny, poorly-defended empire." So, when it is the AI with a shiny, poorly-defended empire, and a human opponent...

Bostock · Feb 18, 2009

The funny thing is, my empire was equally shiny and poorly-defended (built Oracle and TGL); I was just gambling -- successfully -- on Rags' amicable tendencies while I prepared my war machine.

obsolete · Feb 18, 2009

The only thing he did right was frustratingly rapid expansion of his own, but ultimately he wonderwhored his way to his doom.

This seems quite misleading. You already stated he was vulnerable to rushing. So the wonders were not his doom, he was doomed from the start. Particularly since you're using a warmonger's speed-cheat, and this is only a Monarch game. You could have also slaughtered him with attacko's amphibious elephants, and then claimed his cottaging was his doom, or his farming was his doom, or his favourite color was his doom...

Bostock · Feb 18, 2009

obsolete said:
Particularly since you're using a warmonger's speed-cheat, and this is only a Monarch game.

Urrrrrgle! Not all of us are deity players, and I find Normal too fast to be fun (regardless of how it affects war) and Marathon too slow (ditto). :-(

futurehermit · Feb 18, 2009

Just ignore the elitism from higher-level players

I would say most of the community plays epic, so don't worry about that either

Shurdus · Feb 18, 2009

And besides, in his own threads obsolete talks down to anyone not on the same level as him - which is the entire community minus a handful of players - so no worries there.

I think it is a nice thing you found. The fact you can make a warmonger AI turn into a gimp just by giving him stone is nice. The comments from obsolete seem a bit irrelevant to me since cottaging means the AI hinders himself in no real way with no intervention from the player, giving him stone hinders him by your manipulation combined with his own doing. I think it is cool. :beer:

Bostock · Feb 18, 2009

In this particular game, I didn't intervene in any way to give him the stone -- he started right by it. But in the future, I might give up a stone/marble site when expanding towards my neighbor in favor of something high-food, etc. after seeing Rags' behavior here and Joao's in the recent Mao (I believe) online game.

Shurdus · Feb 18, 2009

Ah, if you did not give the stone yourself the thread title can be seen as somewhat misleading.

Bleys · Feb 18, 2009

Its a known tactic called Stone Throwing. You give your closest neighbor your stone, then build axes as he builds Wonders, then you take them. It works better with some AIs, but yes, its very true that Stone seems to make certain non-Wonderific AIs turn into obsolete.

Soirana · Feb 18, 2009

Yes, but they build half priced walls too.

Earthling · Feb 18, 2009

Nothing wrong with epic... marathon is broken though ofc What is really going on is puny map size cheat (not trying to detract from you, just pointing out trends)... on a larger map the AI can expand and build wonders both with ease (though Rag is still not the best at managing his economy I suppose) and early rushes aren't so easy (about 50x greater than difference in speed). But in short I usually find that getting wonders in no way hinders the AI - it's only being weak/behind/problems by other means.

Skallagrimson · Feb 18, 2009

I tend to have worse luck with Rags as a neighbor than Shaka or Monty. It's a knee-jerk of mine now to just snuff him out as soon as I see that damn purple on the map.

Bleys · Feb 18, 2009

Skallagrimson said:
I tend to have worse luck with Rags as a neighbor than Shaka or Monty. It's a knee-jerk of mine now to just snuff him out as soon as I see that damn purple on the map.

No kidding man. Rags is NEVER an easy diplo, and I dont know why I havent come to expect it from him like I do with Monty and Shaka.

We had Monty and Rags as neighbors in a recent SG game (which reminds me, I need to re-join my mates over there, since I have actually started playing Civ a lot more again) and Monty was a cinch to deal with, but Rags . . . holy cow, took us FOREVER to break him down. Was one of the most fun SGs I have played though, learned a LOT about diplo, border defense, etc. I gotta tell ya, there is nothing better at teaching you the Boy Scout Moto (Always Be Prepared) than starting next to one of the nut-job AIs.

futurehermit · Feb 18, 2009

Honestly, I don't know why people have a problem with Ragnar. I never seem to have a problem with the guy.

ppciv4 · Feb 18, 2009

I dont need stone, but marble is so ownsome.

azzaman333 · Feb 18, 2009

Not sure if I'm just paranoid (likely) but it seems to me that Angry Psychos with favourite civics that can be unlocked with the Mids, tend to like trying to build them (if they aren't killing someone).

Bleys · Feb 19, 2009

Heres a great example of an AI totally abusing Stone. I am not sure of Pericles Wonder Building setting but heres the city and the list:

Spoiler :

Phil725 · Feb 19, 2009

Heres a great example of an AI totally abusing Stone. I am not sure of Pericles Wonder Building setting but heres the city and the list:

Pericles is actually in the second tier of wonder builders, behind only Ramses and Louis, although he is tied with a lot of people. I have noticed some unlikely AIs dominating wonders in some games when they get stone and marble though. In my monarch student game, Toku ended up with more wonders than anyone else.

As far as using stone as a diversion tactic, I'll have to give that a try.

Riffraffselbow · Feb 19, 2009

So true. I once saw, of all people, Genghis Khan!!! build both the Pyramids and Stonehenge in Karakorum. Guess what resource was in the inner BFC (first 8)...

To really gimp an AI, give them Stone

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