Tech Balance 1.18
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
Tigranes
Armenian
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2008
- Messages
- 10,406
Yeah, it was Marathon/Monarch, sorry
Wanted to share some observations from an Argentine run to 1920 AD (based on Regent/Normal, 1700AD start). This is based on last Sunday's update. I'll put in some thoughts on my Argentina playthrough in the Suggestions thread.
As per usual, the Western Euros have run away with the game. Britain in particular I can't really understand how they are so strong --- they barely have an empire here! Germany too was neck-and-neck while the USA and Japan (who by this time should be pulling up, historically) are reasonably behind (and as a South American player, I am in the relative stone age). As Argentina, I didn't interfere enormously in global affairs; just interdicted a lot of boats at the Strait of Magellan and threw outdated units at Spain's South American holdings.
My thoughts are that maybe the Global Era technologies (and maybe also the late Industrial Era technologies) could use some tech cost increases. Whenever I play a powerhouse civ and reach that era, I am researching each tech in 1 to 3 turns at most, and I assume the AIs are in a similar bucket. It also makes the really strong Science wonders that show up in the Global Era (CERN, Atomium, Oriental Pearl Tower, etc.) feel really pointless because by then you don't even need those wonders to pump out techs in no time at all.
Also, as a broader mechanical change, perhaps the tech spread mechanic can be drastically buffed in the Industrial Era onwards? It can feel very hopeless as a not!tech-leader civ to play the game and never even think of approaching the tech realm of the leaders while they just speed away building Global Era wonders every other turn.
Here's some screenshots. I also attached some saves below.
As per usual, the Western Euros have run away with the game. Britain in particular I can't really understand how they are so strong --- they barely have an empire here! Germany too was neck-and-neck while the USA and Japan (who by this time should be pulling up, historically) are reasonably behind (and as a South American player, I am in the relative stone age). As Argentina, I didn't interfere enormously in global affairs; just interdicted a lot of boats at the Strait of Magellan and threw outdated units at Spain's South American holdings.
My thoughts are that maybe the Global Era technologies (and maybe also the late Industrial Era technologies) could use some tech cost increases. Whenever I play a powerhouse civ and reach that era, I am researching each tech in 1 to 3 turns at most, and I assume the AIs are in a similar bucket. It also makes the really strong Science wonders that show up in the Global Era (CERN, Atomium, Oriental Pearl Tower, etc.) feel really pointless because by then you don't even need those wonders to pump out techs in no time at all.
Also, as a broader mechanical change, perhaps the tech spread mechanic can be drastically buffed in the Industrial Era onwards? It can feel very hopeless as a not!tech-leader civ to play the game and never even think of approaching the tech realm of the leaders while they just speed away building Global Era wonders every other turn.
Here's some screenshots. I also attached some saves below.
Spoiler 1920 Tech Situation :
Spoiler 1920 Europe :
Spoiler 1920 - Britain's 'Empire' :
Spoiler 1900 Techs :
Spoiler 1880 Techs :
HNation
Éireannach
How do I get the icon of the civ the first discovered each tech to show up in the tech tree?
I did it by pressing Cntrl + Z first (this reveals the full map while you still play, similar to scrolling around in WB).
a pen-dragon
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2024
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- 326
This assumes that you are running the game with cheatcode = chipotle in Civ4.ini, else it will not work.
I am looking at late(r) game tech balance at the moment. My impression is that even in the Renaissance things are already out of alignment, with e.g. France being way ahead of what Prussia spawns with. Some phenomena like advanced Japan also seem to be in part just an outcome of everyone being too advanced.
Can you give me more insight on how late Industrial, Global etc. tech progress works out. So far I know that European civs are running away with the game, but what about the other civilizations? Are they "accurately" behind or too far behind?
I am trying to determine how much of this is a tech cost problem and how much it is a civilization balance problem. I am also considering more pronounced "catch up" mechanism like increasing the tech cost reduction for being behind, or opening up tech trading / gifting more.
Can you give me more insight on how late Industrial, Global etc. tech progress works out. So far I know that European civs are running away with the game, but what about the other civilizations? Are they "accurately" behind or too far behind?
I am trying to determine how much of this is a tech cost problem and how much it is a civilization balance problem. I am also considering more pronounced "catch up" mechanism like increasing the tech cost reduction for being behind, or opening up tech trading / gifting more.
a pen-dragon
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2024
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- 326
I usually play on Monarch.
One thing I noticed form the limited number of times I played is that generally whoever conquered Rome (and the rest of southern Italy) did very well and frequently proceeded to run away with the game.
IMHO the relative advancement is mostly fine, except for the new spawns who obviously lag and Ethiopia that frequently is amongst the top 5 in tech.
One thing I noticed form the limited number of times I played is that generally whoever conquered Rome (and the rest of southern Italy) did very well and frequently proceeded to run away with the game.
IMHO the relative advancement is mostly fine, except for the new spawns who obviously lag and Ethiopia that frequently is amongst the top 5 in tech.
If you are talking about new spawns lagging behind, do you mean from the point of view of the techs they start with, or are the initial techs okay but they then get left behind because their economy cannot keep up?
FraggleJock
Warlord
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2017
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- 135
I have the impression that if Mongolia gets a selection of great people that beelines it that they bulb through past Economics and the game falls over in that case as Mongol techs seem to spread through Asia rapidly. especially through the Mughals on the rare case Mongolia converts to Islam.
Temujin8k
Fluyts, Grand Vizier of Your Mind
More often the latter. I think the starting techs are okay. It's just that those already long spawned by 1700 AD tend to snowball once they expand enough. Especially colonial civs after their respective TC events.
a pen-dragon
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2024
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- 326
I agree.
damienreave
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2012
- Messages
- 17
I think there could be some consideration for adding to the tech cost based on game speed. AI are very consistently ahead on Epic and hugely ahead on Marathon speeds compared to Normal.
Hickman888
Prince
I've been playing a lot of the Mayans recently, working on a video for them. With the Mayans, your historical victory depends heavily on the tech rate of the Europeans in the Medieval era, and how fast they tech through it. In my observations, the Europeans are teching way too fast. (All played on the most recent git, and after the tech divergence update from a few weeks ago.) In one game, I was three turns too slow, being discovered in 1410 AD. Second try, France discovered me in 1365. Third try, Spain discovered me in 1325.
I think, outliers excluded, a good general timeframe for the discovery in the new world would be 1475-1550 AD? I don't know if aiming for those dates would make the Mayan game too easy, because I was generally on track to get a caravel by 1400 AD... but the tech spread penalty/bonus also has the potential to help or harm the Mayan tech rate, and push them more in the direction of a good challenge.
I shared a couple of saves here, if they would be helpful to look at. "Maya" save is in 1190 AD, and from the game where I was discovered in 1365, so several turns early. Second save is the autosave where I was discovered in 1325 AD.
I know the tech rate here is still a WIP, so I'm hoping some other members of the community can share their own experiences with the tech rate, and provide some more data.
I think, outliers excluded, a good general timeframe for the discovery in the new world would be 1475-1550 AD? I don't know if aiming for those dates would make the Mayan game too easy, because I was generally on track to get a caravel by 1400 AD... but the tech spread penalty/bonus also has the potential to help or harm the Mayan tech rate, and push them more in the direction of a good challenge.
I shared a couple of saves here, if they would be helpful to look at. "Maya" save is in 1190 AD, and from the game where I was discovered in 1365, so several turns early. Second save is the autosave where I was discovered in 1325 AD.
Spoiler :( :
I know the tech rate here is still a WIP, so I'm hoping some other members of the community can share their own experiences with the tech rate, and provide some more data.
Hickman888
Prince
Yes, normal speed. I haven't tried the 600 AD scenario yet so I can't speak to that.
I had about the same experience. France discovered me in 1405, right as I had my first caravel. I reloaded that save and they did not discover me in time. Anything earlier than 1400 should definitely be a 1/100 chance. I feel like something between 1440-1520 is about the time Europeans should discover the Americas.
SultanRedSnake
Prince
600AD has been great for Caravel timing since Gunpowder was made a requirement. I’d place 1400 as the earliest date they’ll appear in Europe, with average probably closer to 1500. Arabia and Mongols can get them out earlier than 1400 but I haven’t seen one get anywhere close to the New World and this would fall under a separate balance category anyway.
SultanRedSnake
Prince
Reposting from wrong thread (sorryyyyyyyyyy)
I've run a butt ton of 600AD test games over the past two weeks and can at least report that egregious cases of runaway teching are no longer routine, and only a handful of highly circumstantial examples that are more the outcome of other factors than tech costs/rates/mods/etc. Mongols can sometimes hit the Silver Tree bonanza and run ahead but this is nothing new and is nullified by their certain collapse. Even the resurrected MegArabia doesn't pull unreasonably far ahead and this goes for the familiar MongoMugals and to an extent BlottoOttos. I also haven't seen the Japanese or Korean Early Modern Space Programs from earlier versions of the new map.
What warrants our attention at this point is probably the effect of Tech Divergence on formerly backward civs that now *might* be catching up a bit too rapidly or easily and this will be the focus of my attention in coming posts.
I've run a butt ton of 600AD test games over the past two weeks and can at least report that egregious cases of runaway teching are no longer routine, and only a handful of highly circumstantial examples that are more the outcome of other factors than tech costs/rates/mods/etc. Mongols can sometimes hit the Silver Tree bonanza and run ahead but this is nothing new and is nullified by their certain collapse. Even the resurrected MegArabia doesn't pull unreasonably far ahead and this goes for the familiar MongoMugals and to an extent BlottoOttos. I also haven't seen the Japanese or Korean Early Modern Space Programs from earlier versions of the new map.
What warrants our attention at this point is probably the effect of Tech Divergence on formerly backward civs that now *might* be catching up a bit too rapidly or easily and this will be the focus of my attention in coming posts.
Stuart98
Chieftain
Early discovery (>150 years) of the Americas is definitely something I'm seeing. I wonder if Compass simply needs to be pushed a bit further down the tech tree?
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