1.5 Feedback

Forgive me if this is in the wrong place, but I wasn't sure where to put it. Do you want recommendations (not exactly feedback) in the modpacks forum as well?

In any event, one of the tragically underutilized concepts in ALL of the civ 4 universe is the global council resolutions. In Dune Wars, somewhat ironically, I never get elected and so I do not not the full scope of resolutions. Based on the poor choices made by the AI (again, in every mod and base civ this is an obvious problem), there doesn't seem to be any unique resolutions. Just a few ideas:

1. Increase and/or decrease the global efficiency of terraforming (i.e. replicate the effect of adding or subtracting Reservoirs of Liet). This would, for example, allow a block of pro-terraformers to take control of the council and allow them to terraform faster.

2. Increase and/or decrease the financial bonus of each spice resource. If you design it so terraformers have significantly fewer available spice resources and the value of each spice resource is very high, it may make sense for them to reduce the global benefit.

3. Increase/decrease the cap on the number of homeworld units you can buy. Maybe increasing the cap means each unit should be more expensive, and vice versa. Thus, if you voted to increase the cap, you could recruit 50% more units but the cost per unit increase by 75%. Likewise, if you vote to decrease the cap, you could recruit 50% less units but their cost is also reduced by 50%. The thinking is that perhaps in the early game you would elect to reduce the cap so you can better afford the units, but as economies develop you could elect to either repeal the resolution, or even try to get the cap expanded...

4. Provide Combat 1 to all homeworld recruited units, but increase the cost of each unit by 25%.

5. Increase the global worker work rate by 25% but impose a flat 5% tax per turn.

6. Double the diplomatic effect of religion, but also provide a global 50-100% increase in trade route effect. In other words, much stronger trade with your religious brothers, but further alienation (and a likely loss of trade routes) with heathens.


Incidentally, I very much like the homeworld recruiting idea. I just think it would work better if the units available were unique. Each faction's primary source of their unique units should be the homeworld recruiting system. That is to say, it should be more credit efficient to buy them there; you can ensure this by making the hammer cost disproportionately high.
In addition to providing each civ's unique unit, the homeworld recruiting system could also provide a couple units not buildable but available to all. They should be clearly superior to the unit they replace, but should be very expensive and in limited supply. This would also have the effect of making the proposed resolutions above much more significant...
 
We haven't done anything with council resolutions. Partly because they are hard to code AI for, so that the AI intelligently votes for/against decisions.

1. Sounds interesting. Would probably be easy to AI code; get the leader to propose/vote for/against the resolution based on their civic.

2. This sounds harder, both because the benefit from a spice is from corporations (it would be hard to make a resolution change corporation yields) and because it would be h
Plus, it doesn't really make sense; the value of spice is determined by the demand for it in the rest of the galaxy, you can't really change that easily by passing a law. Unless they're taxing it I suppose.

3, 4 Might be possible, but hard to evaluate.

5. I don't quite understand this; what are you trying to represent here?
Hard to evaluate too.

6. How would passing a law change this?

I just think it would work better if the units available were unique.

We've taken most of the UUs out of the mod; I think we intend for factional UUs to show up in the homeworld ques.
 
We haven't done anything with council resolutions. Partly because they are hard to code AI for

I agree. These are good suggestions, but hard to do.

We've taken most of the UUs out of the mod; I think we intend for factional UUs to show up in the homeworld queues.

It is true that we took out almost all the UU/UB in 1.4 to focus on the basic gameplay with fewer units. At some point we should design and add UU/UB. However, the original suggestion is more; keldath had also suggested this. There could be offworld-*only* units. These could be either unique to a civ, or allowed to be purchased by any civ using a landing stage.

I am not sure when is the right time to design the UU/UB; I was hoping everything else would stabilize faster.
 
Well, now that I got familiar with the mod, which is quite an achievement I must say, as a long-standing Dune geek I may offer some fluff input you could possibly process for the betterment of future editions of the mod. Now, however, only the things I noticed from a simple Civ player's standpoint.

1. The Arrakis map has huge problems fitting in all the civs on smaller maps. There's an error notice appearing right before starting the game that points out a rare occurence of blah blah (the long number) which results in either elimination of me as civ (auto-defeat) or any of the others. Sometimes you also end up in a sand dune starting location with no access to the ground solid enough to found a city, or even on plain sand with no ability of a settler to move. Packed-up smaller maps also appear deprived of any resources that are not diamond, uranium, nitrates, groundwater, crystals, stravidium, little makers and sandtrouts (all of them in excess) - the crop generation could be more favourable for dune plants.

2. Diplomatic victory does not end the game. I just got the winning resolution passed and had to figure out other way to win.

3. The names of planets and star systems as cities on Dune, mixed up with other stuff, look pretty uncool. Why don't you give one source of city names to all and associate them with different civs' cities at random, the way barbarian cities are being named? There are plenty of atmospheric Dune names that are not associated with either party permanently, so there's no need to import names that do not fit, especially that all maps are 100% Dunish. Personally, I would feel much more enmeshed in Dune fluff if I saw more Harg Passes, Tuono Basins, Caves of Birds, Caves of Riches, Sihaya Ridges, Arsunts, Tsimpos, Windsacks and so forth.

4. Pics. Most of them are good, but I see a clear preference for Lynch's movie and Dune televised series. Why don't you exploit the neat set of pics from Dune CCG more (I saw only several through the game)? If you lack access, I may provide you with scans, I have most cards.

I hope my suggestions are of any use and merit to you.

Thanks again for the great experience this mod is!
 
Well, now that I got familiar with the mod, which is quite an achievement I must say, as a long-standing Dune geek I may offer some fluff input you could possibly process for the betterment of future editions of the mod. Now, however, only the things I noticed from a simple Civ player's standpoint.

Great! Thanks for the feedback!

1. The Arrakis map has huge problems fitting in all the civs on smaller maps.

Agreed. There is discussion on the sub-forum about replacing this mapscript altogether. Stay tuned!

2. Diplomatic victory does not end the game. I just got the winning resolution passed and had to figure out other way to win.

I have noticed that also in the past. I think the "Mastery" victory condition causes this. I play with this victory condition disabled and then the other victories work as they should. Do you have "Mastery" turned on?

3. The names of planets and star systems as cities on Dune, mixed up with other stuff, look pretty uncool. Why don't you give one source of city names to all and associate them with different civs' cities at random, the way barbarian cities are being named? There are plenty of atmospheric Dune names that are not associated with either party permanently, so there's no need to import names that do not fit, especially that all maps are 100% Dunish. Personally, I would feel much more enmeshed in Dune fluff if I saw more Harg Passes, Tuono Basins, Caves of Birds, Caves of Riches, Sihaya Ridges, Arsunts, Tsimpos, Windsacks and so forth.

Deliverator has worked on this a little for 1.5.1. Please take a look when that is released (or perhaps, if you want a stable release, 1.5.2 which is further into the future). One problem is that you need at least 20 names for each civ, which is 180 names, and it's hard to find that many. We would definitely like your input on this.

4. Pics. Most of them are good, but I see a clear preference for Lynch's movie and Dune televised series. Why don't you exploit the neat set of pics from Dune CCG more (I saw only several through the game)? If you lack access, I may provide you with scans, I have most cards.

Never played the game. There may be some small legal question, but this mod is not for profit, etc etc etc. If you feel comfortable, we would love to add more art. Please send any scans you can, or if there is already a site we could look at, please let us know. Not only people, but also buildings, units, etc art would be useful.
 
fenring said:
The names of planets and star systems as cities on Dune, mixed up with other stuff, look pretty uncool.
davidlallen said:
Deliverator has worked on this a little for 1.5.1. Please take a look when that is released (or perhaps, if you want a stable release, 1.5.2 which is further into the future).
Please look into the spoiler for the current list. If you would like to change some, please feel free. I will put it back into the proper XML format after.
Spoiler :

House Atreides
Castle Caladan
Atreus
Serena
Cidrit
Paradan
Salusan
Armada Bluff
Sihaya
Habbanya Erg
Vorian
Habbanya Ridge
Pundi
Elecran
Coral Qem
Atreides Landing
Cala City
Sision
Pavonis
Agamemnon
Zocom
Krasna45
Dujec
Langley
Fort Zone
Taqwa
Iber
Waten
Biddi
Rotinom
Tatnem
Alaum
K'Lom
House Ordos
Executrix
Ammon
Canopus
Grumman
Sikun
Bela Tegeuse
Ophiuchus
Poritrin
Epsilon Alangue
Epsilon Ophiuchi
Alangue
Rossak
Alpha Leporis
Alpha Centauri A
Alpha Centauri B
Proxima
Alpha Piscium
Vivr
Messit
Waff
Scatt
Wi-Ed
Nadal
Aining
Layr
Kobsa
Hako
Mauhk
Hamulago
Bene Tleilax
Bandalong
Xerxes
Sufi
Xuttuh
Rodale
Richese
Butlerian
Tleilaxu
Parmentier
Romo
Sikun
Ophiuchi A
Bi-La Kaifa
Missiva
Varota
Butlerian
Scyte
Ithaca
Powind
Axlotl
Lusu
Sligs
Denol
Adn
Fremen
Sietch Tabr
Arrakeen
Carthag
Hagga
Arsunt
Hagga
Sihaya
Tuono Basin
Splintered Rock
Broken Land
Cave of Birds
Wind Pass
Minor Erg
Palmaries
Mt. Idaho
Habbanya Erg
Habbanya Ridge
Plastic Basin
Observatory Mt.
Chakobsa
House Corrino
Imperial Base
Gamma Waiping
Pyon
Eridani A
Sardauk
Chusuk
Delta Pavonis
Harmonthep
Bela Tegeuse
Tiberium
Habla
Elrood
Auroris
Saudik
Orcat
Talons
Zorca
Mammooth
Scrin
Nod
Avatar
Shadow Peak
Corrinos
Orcast
Fire Hook
Dye Landing
Philadelphia Uplink
Saudak
Blue Tib
Green Tib
Kane
Blue Zone
Ponop
Minim
Herber
Ace
House Harkonnen
Giedi City
Harko City
Barony
Dmitri
Perdition Shallows
Sorrows
Flint
Obsidian
Slave Pits
Forest Guard
Mount Ebony
Fort Ancient
Barren Land
Flat Tramway
Raven
Tundra
Ophiuchi
Metali
Port of Sacrifice
Para-Co
Paspar
Sider
Ritic
Pyon
Schla
Saad
Geidi-Minor
Bene Gesserit
Chapterhouse
Gero
Lampadas
Palma
Laoujin
Tahaddi
Sirat
Mantene
Karaman
Khalam
Ibad
Ibn Qirtaiba
Ayati
Crysti
Semut
Servok
Shai
Cach
Han
Conven
Gerrat
Iltug
Dakin
Zace
Opafire
Ornit
Loine
Range
Mu'Zein
Assassin's Peak
Rahif
Ghola
Angel Isle
Dark City
House Ix
Ix City
Technia
Zoi
Icanax
Xuttuh
Titan Xerxes
Rodale
Ixian Solido
Gammu Prime
Shere
Haploid
Nayla
Siona
Gholia
Murbella
Chomma
Zannar
Dekk
Holbar
Seck
Toll
Baltheg
Riss Kai
Sordel
Oranit
Ixtar
Xelleck
Xorix
Geroth
Sythe'b
Kolloth
Rakin
B'athor
Fellbarg
House Ecaz
Ecaz City
Elacca
Jarezi
Sula
Polz
Semus
Unis
Tenim
Cazaris
Fukan
Terecca
Steri
Quendris
Buquinta
Iadam
Resti
Futac
Shahin
Marac
Haric
Armandis
Vidalis
Shekanim
Poikas
Zaneba
Jerac
Nadim
Ericcas
Mul
Jahaccas
Chek
Anos
Ruson
Arrakeen
Tuek's Sietch
Pasty Mesa
Red's Pass
Chin Rock
Gara Kulon
Harg Pass
False Wall-S
False Wall-E
Chise
Der'Sap
Kustmi
 
I think the legal question is pretty irrelevant in this case. The game is long dead as is the company that released it, so it is only the artists themselves. I've tried to browse the net a bit in search for a good gallery of CCG Cards and the results are a bit unimpressive, so some serious scanning awaits me I guess. There are like over 660 cards in the game, so potentially a good art database, even though not all card pics are worthy of attention.

However, I found mostly sneak peeks like these (crappy resolution all of them, just for making pre-scan preferences):

http://karcianki.polter.pl/Dune-CCG-Galeria-kart-g1827
http://www.geocities.com/sherlockazulu/images.htm
http://dunepedia.wetpaint.com/page/Category:+Dune+CCG (click other options in submenu)
http://sihaya.altervista.org/cartedune2.htm

These are good:

http://www.randyasplund.com/browse/cards/dune.html - Randy Asplund's Dune gallery
http://markzug.com/dune/art-from-the-collectible-card-game/ - Mark Zug's

An unrelated material: Map from the boardgame, perhaps could be an inspiration in making a genuine Dune scenario map

http://www.dunefilmbook.com/graphics/board/DuneBoardorlok.jpg
 
Well, now that I got familiar with the mod, which is quite an achievement I must say, as a long-standing Dune geek I may offer some fluff input you could possibly process for the betterment of future editions of the mod.

Great. The more Dune geeks the better!

The names of planets and star systems as cities on Dune, mixed up with other stuff, look pretty uncool. Why don't you give one source of city names to all and associate them with different civs' cities at random, the way barbarian cities are being named? ... Personally, I would feel much more enmeshed in Dune fluff if I saw more Harg Passes, Tuono Basins, Caves of Birds, Caves of Riches, Sihaya Ridges, Arsunts, Tsimpos, Windsacks and so forth.

Agree completely. The current city lists are just made up lists of assorted Dune planets and related terms quite often.

david/koma/cephalo - is it possible to mod the sdk so that we have a single list of city names stored in GlobalDefines or something like that? I think the answer is yes, as I've seen Planetfall has different city name lists for ocean cities. Could someone do this? It is probably at the easier end of the SDK modding spectrum in my inexperienced estimation.

Other things that need some thought are:
1) We need a completely new list of decent Dune-themed wonders for the mod.
2) We need some more ideas for making factions play differently, unique units, unique buildings, unique mechanics.
2) We need to rename the Eras to something more appropriate.

Pics. Most of them are good, but I see a clear preference for Lynch's movie and Dune televised series. Why don't you exploit the neat set of pics from Dune CCG more (I saw only several through the game)? If you lack access, I may provide you with scans, I have most cards.

The reason we've used TV/film for the leaderheads is that images need to have a certain, resolution and crispness to look good. Taking stills from DVDs you can get a good sized source image without the issue of nasty JPEG compression artifacts which is common with internet sourced material. The CCG stuff looks really interesting though. Anything that you can provide we can potentially find a home for, particularly things that work as distinctive icons (which have to be 64x64 pixels). In the distant, distant future I would like to have Event pop-ups with images like some other mods have done.

Is there a list of cards from the CCG game anywhere? That could be a good source of ideas - wonders, unique units and buildings, etc.
 
The full spoiler cardlist is here: http://www.geocities.com/sherlockazulu/card_library.htm. I am a former hardcore Dune CCG player so may explain any mechanical puzzles from the cards which appear useful to you.

The city list: I am with deliverator on this - one list would be really good. It would reflect different factions slowly claiming geographical features of Dune rather than simply founding them. I will procure a list soonish, once you establish how it should be done - civ specific or general (naturally, the Fremen are easiest to support). Perhaps first cities for factions could be pre-selected. My ideas would be:

Atreides - Ducal Seat
Harkonnen - Dune Regency
Corrino - Selamlik
Sisterhood - Panoplia Propheticus
Fremen - Sietch Tabr

Ecaz, Ix, Tleilaxu and Ordos have no procedence of formal Dune presence in FH's books, so something should be made up.

The new things:

I'll give it some serious thought and be back with results.
 
Also, I think that more Dunish factions should be made playable civs, like Spice Miners, Water Sellers, Spacing Guild, Smugglers. The barbarians could be relegated to the role of Water Stealers of Jakarutu. ;) But do we really need barbarians with most of the wild and violent factions made playable? :D
 
The full spoiler cardlist is here.

Cool. There's a lot of great ideas coming from this list. For starters, I like Sisterhood Covenant for the Bene Gesserit unique resource discussed here, and I think we should replace Alia as a BG leader with Lady Margot Fenring. Alia could become a religious hero unit for the Qizarate religion and the Temple of Alia can be the shrine.
 
Water Stealers of Jakarutu

I'd actually like to see these guys as a playable civ using the name the Iduali or Cast-Out. Then you can have 'bad' Fremen and 'good' Fremen. One thing that makes them different from other Fremen is that they capture worms and sell them off world to the highest bidder. This could make a fun unique mechanic for them - capture a worm and get a hefty gold windfall.

We took the Guild out because it didn't feel right to have them a playable faction. The homeworld screen mechanic - paying the Guild for transporting your units - doesn't make sense if they are in the game.

Smugglers as a civ might be a possibility, but I think Water Sellers and Spice Miners are too vague and indistinctive.
 
Replacing Alia with Margot is a good idea, because at any given point of her life she was anything but a loyal BG Sis. I think the Goal should be to organise leaders according to periods of Dune timeline, covered by first three books as much as possible, at least for the factions that got coverage.

Atreides: Leto - Paul - Alia - Leto II

Harkonen: Vladimir - Glossu - Feyd

Corrino: Shaddam - Irulan - Vensicia - Farad'n

Fremen: Ramallo - Liet - Stilgar - Muad'Dib

Sisterhood: Margot - Gaius - Jessica

---

Water sellers, like Tuek's Smugglers, got pretty good coverage in original Dune book, Lingar Bewt mentioned by name. And it would be really cool to have them begin on original dune map (once it is made) sitting on the pole. Perhaps an independent, non-playable faction mechanics could be used with them for starters.

---

Jakarutu as separate faction is worth considering.

---

The Guild as faction is controversial, I admit.

---

Temple of Alia under the Quizarate is a very good idea.
 
In the distant, distant future I would like to have Event pop-ups with images like some other mods have done.

I am currently thinking about making something like this. Not only for events (we don't have...) - but also for hints, explaining game mechanics and introducing the dune universe. Maybe we can make some kind of personal advisor for each house, serving as a mentat for the player.
 
That could be a nice flavour addition - like the notification popups in Age of Discovery 2.

Events should be one of the last things we add to the mod after everything else is pretty much 'done'. That's what they did for FFH2 and the approach makes sense since events are basically flavourful icing on the cake rather than core to the mod.
 
The city list: I am with deliverator on this - one list would be really good.

I think each civ should have one carefully chosen capitol city name, and perhaps 2-3 other key cities which are closely associated with them in the books. These names will be used for the first few cities, and I think it is important for theme. This may not work for Ordos, but even so, I bet there are 1-2 names already associated with them from the games they were in. We should no longer use homeworlds since we have the homeworld screen now.

Regardless of how we distribute the names after that, we need about 180 names so each civ can have 20 without duplication. Given the list, we could randomly distribute them among the civs, with only xml changes. I am sure it is possible to make some kind of mod to rename the cities from one global list; but I am not sure how much additional benefit that has beyond just splitting up the list one time.

If the Dune experts can put together a list this long (please use the list a few posts above as a starting point) we can decide how to use it.
 
AHR4
Improvement access a bit strange; I would vote for mines and windtraps only on mesa, and for allowing cottage, turbine and solar farm (or a melting lens) on polar.

Ice extractors are currently buildable on rugged/sink and badlands/sink, as are dew collectors? (they do nothing). And you can build mines in sinks. These should be limited to mesa IMO.

Shallow wells and plantations are sometimes buildable in sinks (they do nothing).

AHR5
Mesas seems to really be mesa/rugged.
They are giving a 55% defense bonus and very long improvement build times.

AHR6
Graben gives 2h1c
I would reduce it so that it just gives 1h1c. So either remove the +1 hammer from sinks, or reduce graben down to just 1c yield.
It will still be better then normal rock/badlands.
Otherwise:
a) its too strong
b) changing it into plains/grassland isn't really a bonus.

AHR7
Related thought; how about scrub forest from terraforming only appears on grassland/plains in a sink?

So remove the hammer bonus from sinks. Then:
graben/sink = 1h1c
plains sink = 1f
grassland sink = 2f
plains sink with scrub forest = 1f1h
grassland sink with scrub forest = 2f1h

AHR8
Graben/sink costs 2 movement points, it should only cost 1.
 
OK, here's the state of play as I see it.

1) The experimental patch 1.5.1 is available here.
2) The latest version of Cephalo's Arrakis.py v0.51 is available and included in 1.5.1.

attachment.php


This Arrakis mapscript is the one we need the onus of the play-testing to fall on. You can also use the Dunipelago (NOT Archipelago) mapscript to test out how the new terrain set is working, but try Arrakis first!

We should work towards a more polished 1.5.2 which refines the new terrain and includes a solid version of Arrakis.py. Whether or not we continue to support/refine Dunipelago will depend on how good we can make Arrakis.py. Bear in mind that Cephalo's mapscripts in the past have had customizable parameters, such as More Islands/Less Islands, etc. If the mapscript has a few parameters that can be tweaked then one mapscript will probably be enough to keep things interesting.

Ideally, functional issues with the terrain, improvements, bonuses, etc should go in this thread and the Arrakis.py thread can just be feedback for Cephalo to improve the layout of the tiles, shape of landmasses, etc.
 
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