1.5 Feedback

zappara · Oct 3, 2009

RoM's xml for Mine and Shaft mine:

Code:

<ImprovementInfo>
			<Type>IMPROVEMENT_MINE</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_IMPROVEMENT_MINE</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_IMPROVEMENT_MINE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_IMPROVEMENT_MINE</ArtDefineTag>
			<YieldChanges>
				<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
				<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
				<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
			</YieldChanges>
			<bActsAsCity>0</bActsAsCity>
			<bHillsMakesValid>1</bHillsMakesValid>
			<bFreshWaterMakesValid>0</bFreshWaterMakesValid>
			<bRiverSideMakesValid>0</bRiverSideMakesValid>
			<bNoFreshWater>0</bNoFreshWater>
			<bRequiresFlatlands>0</bRequiresFlatlands>
			<bRequiresRiverSide>0</bRequiresRiverSide>
			<bRequiresIrrigation>0</bRequiresIrrigation>
			<bCarriesIrrigation>0</bCarriesIrrigation>
			<bRequiresFeature>0</bRequiresFeature>
			<bWater>0</bWater>
			<bGoody>0</bGoody>
			<bPermanent>0</bPermanent>
			<iAdvancedStartCost>24</iAdvancedStartCost>
			<iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>
			<iTilesPerGoody>0</iTilesPerGoody>
			<iGoodyRange>0</iGoodyRange>
			<iFeatureGrowth>0</iFeatureGrowth>
			<iUpgradeTime>40</iUpgradeTime>
			<iAirBombDefense>10</iAirBombDefense>
			<iDefenseModifier>0</iDefenseModifier>
			<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
			<iPillageGold>10</iPillageGold>
			<bOutsideBorders>1</bOutsideBorders>
			<TerrainMakesValids/>
			<FeatureMakesValids/>
			<BonusTypeStructs>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_BAUXITE</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_COAL</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_COPPER</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_GEMS</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>-1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>5</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_GOLD</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>-1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>6</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_IRON</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_SILVER</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>-1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>4</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_URANIUM</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>3</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_SULPHUR</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>2</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_LEAD</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
			</BonusTypeStructs>
			<ImprovementPillage/>
			<ImprovementUpgrade>IMPROVEMENT_SHAFT_MINE</ImprovementUpgrade>
			<TechYieldChanges>
				<TechYieldChange>
					<PrereqTech>TECH_SEISMOLOGY</PrereqTech>
					<TechYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>1</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</TechYields>
				</TechYieldChange>
			</TechYieldChanges>
			<RouteYieldChanges>
				<RouteYieldChange>
					<RouteType>ROUTE_ROAD</RouteType>
					<RouteYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>1</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</RouteYields>
				</RouteYieldChange>
				<RouteYieldChange>
					<RouteType>ROUTE_PAVED</RouteType>
					<RouteYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>1</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</RouteYields>
				</RouteYieldChange>
				<RouteYieldChange>
					<RouteType>ROUTE_MODERN_ROAD</RouteType>
					<RouteYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>1</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</RouteYields>
				</RouteYieldChange>
				<RouteYieldChange>
					<RouteType>ROUTE_RAILROAD</RouteType>
					<RouteYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>2</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</RouteYields>
				</RouteYieldChange>
				<RouteYieldChange>
					<RouteType>ROUTE_RAILROAD_ELECTRIC</RouteType>
					<RouteYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>2</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</RouteYields>
				</RouteYieldChange>
			</RouteYieldChanges>
			<bGraphicalOnly>0</bGraphicalOnly>
		</ImprovementInfo>
		<ImprovementInfo>
			<Type>IMPROVEMENT_SHAFT_MINE</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_IMPROVEMENT_SHAFT_MINE</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_IMPROVEMENT_SHAFT_MINE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_IMPROVEMENT_MINE</ArtDefineTag>
			<YieldChanges>
				<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
				<iYieldChange>2</iYieldChange>
				<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
			</YieldChanges>
			<bActsAsCity>0</bActsAsCity>
			<bHillsMakesValid>0</bHillsMakesValid>
			<bFreshWaterMakesValid>0</bFreshWaterMakesValid>
			<bRiverSideMakesValid>0</bRiverSideMakesValid>
			<bNoFreshWater>0</bNoFreshWater>
			<bRequiresFlatlands>0</bRequiresFlatlands>
			<bRequiresRiverSide>0</bRequiresRiverSide>
			<bRequiresIrrigation>0</bRequiresIrrigation>
			<bCarriesIrrigation>0</bCarriesIrrigation>
			<bRequiresFeature>0</bRequiresFeature>
			<bWater>0</bWater>
			<bGoody>0</bGoody>
			<bPermanent>0</bPermanent>
			<iAdvancedStartCost>48</iAdvancedStartCost>
			<iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>
			<iTilesPerGoody>0</iTilesPerGoody>
			<iGoodyRange>0</iGoodyRange>
			<iFeatureGrowth>0</iFeatureGrowth>
			<iUpgradeTime>0</iUpgradeTime>
			<iAirBombDefense>10</iAirBombDefense>
			<iDefenseModifier>0</iDefenseModifier>
			<iHappiness>-1</iHappiness>
			<iPillageGold>10</iPillageGold>
			<bOutsideBorders>1</bOutsideBorders>
			<TerrainMakesValids/>
			<FeatureMakesValids/>
			<BonusTypeStructs>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_BAUXITE</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_COAL</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_COPPER</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_GEMS</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>-1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>5</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_GOLD</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>-1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>6</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_IRON</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_SILVER</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>-1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>4</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_URANIUM</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>3</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_SULPHUR</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>2</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
				<BonusTypeStruct>
					<BonusType>BONUS_LEAD</BonusType>
					<bBonusMakesValid>1</bBonusMakesValid>
					<bBonusTrade>1</bBonusTrade>
					<iDiscoverRand>10000</iDiscoverRand>
					<YieldChanges>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>1</iYieldChange>
						<iYieldChange>0</iYieldChange>
					</YieldChanges>
				</BonusTypeStruct>
			</BonusTypeStructs>
			<ImprovementPillage>IMPROVEMENT_MINE</ImprovementPillage>
			<ImprovementUpgrade/>
			<TechYieldChanges>
				<TechYieldChange>
					<PrereqTech>TECH_SEISMOLOGY</PrereqTech>
					<TechYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>1</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</TechYields>
				</TechYieldChange>
			</TechYieldChanges>
			<RouteYieldChanges>
				<RouteYieldChange>
					<RouteType>ROUTE_ROAD</RouteType>
					<RouteYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>1</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</RouteYields>
				</RouteYieldChange>
				<RouteYieldChange>
					<RouteType>ROUTE_PAVED</RouteType>
					<RouteYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>1</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</RouteYields>
				</RouteYieldChange>
				<RouteYieldChange>
					<RouteType>ROUTE_MODERN_ROAD</RouteType>
					<RouteYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>1</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</RouteYields>
				</RouteYieldChange>
				<RouteYieldChange>
					<RouteType>ROUTE_RAILROAD</RouteType>
					<RouteYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>2</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</RouteYields>
				</RouteYieldChange>
				<RouteYieldChange>
					<RouteType>ROUTE_RAILROAD_ELECTRIC</RouteType>
					<RouteYields>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
						<iYield>2</iYield>
						<iYield>0</iYield>
					</RouteYields>
				</RouteYieldChange>
			</RouteYieldChanges>
			<bGraphicalOnly>0</bGraphicalOnly>
		</ImprovementInfo>

Mine's iUpgradeTime is 40 so that it upgrades to Shaft Mine.

Now in BuildInfos xml file these improvements have the following settings:

Code:

<BuildInfo>
			<Type>BUILD_MINE</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILD_MINE</Description>
			<Help/>
			<PrereqTech>TECH_MINING</PrereqTech>
			<iTime>400</iTime>
			<iCost>0</iCost>
			<bKill>0</bKill>
			<ImprovementType>IMPROVEMENT_MINE</ImprovementType>
			<RouteType>NONE</RouteType>
			<EntityEvent>ENTITY_EVENT_MINE</EntityEvent>
			<FeatureStructs/>
			<HotKey>KB_M</HotKey>
			<bAltDown>0</bAltDown>
			<bShiftDown>0</bShiftDown>
			<bCtrlDown>0</bCtrlDown>
			<iHotKeyPriority>0</iHotKeyPriority>
			<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Builds/BuildMine.dds,Art/Interface/Buttons/Actions_Builds_LeaderHeads_Specialists_Atlas.dds,6,7</Button>
		</BuildInfo>
		<BuildInfo>
			<Type>BUILD_SHAFT_MINE</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILD_SHAFT_MINE</Description>
			<Help/>
			<PrereqTech>TECH_STEAM_POWER</PrereqTech>
			<iTime>800</iTime>
			<iCost>25</iCost>
			<bKill>0</bKill>
			<ImprovementType>IMPROVEMENT_SHAFT_MINE</ImprovementType>
			<RouteType>NONE</RouteType>
			<EntityEvent>ENTITY_EVENT_MINE</EntityEvent>
			<FeatureStructs/>
			<HotKey>KB_M</HotKey>
			<bAltDown>0</bAltDown>
			<bShiftDown>1</bShiftDown>
			<bCtrlDown>0</bCtrlDown>
			<iHotKeyPriority>0</iHotKeyPriority>
			<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Builds/BuildMine.dds,Art/Interface/Buttons/Actions_Builds_LeaderHeads_Specialists_Atlas.dds,6,7</Button>
		</BuildInfo>

So, Mine is set to automatically upgrade to Shaft Mine and once player discovers Steam Power he can build directly Shaft Mine. Normal Mines keep upgrading to Shaft Mines of course if city works on those plots. This system uses default BtS features. Note that PlotLSystem probably prevents this system with cottage->town upgrade path as those improvements have the setting bUseLSystem == 1 in the improvements xml file.

davidlallen · Oct 3, 2009

zappara said:
RoM's xml for Mine and Shaft mine: ...
So, Mine is set to automatically upgrade to Shaft Mine and once player discovers Steam Power he can build directly Shaft Mine. Normal Mines keep upgrading to Shaft Mines of course if city works on those plots. This system uses default BtS features.

Thanks for the details. The xml you included was slightly different than the xml Ahriman uploaded, regarding iUpgradeTime. In your system, if the player never researches Steam Power, still all their worked Mines upgrade to Shaft Mines in 40 turns. That is what I was hoping to avoid. I suppose we can make the upgrade time 500, so it will never happen.

Ahriman · Oct 3, 2009

The xml you included was slightly different than the xml Ahriman uploaded

I might have an outdated version or something? I dunno.

That is what I was hoping to avoid. I suppose we can make the upgrade time 500, so it will never happen.

Its harmless I think. We could even have it shorter, so that it will happen eventually (200 turns?), but you would be better off building on top of it. I'm indifferent.

Add a "hint" note: "Though wells, turbines and mines will eventually upgrade by themselves, with the appropriate technology you can build more advanced and higher yield improvements directly."

It would be cool to have mines, turbines and wells drop down 1 level from pillage, its worth the slight confusion of slowly (or never) upgrading automatically.

davidlallen · Oct 4, 2009

Dragonwrenn said:
My opinion of this mod, after much delighted astonishment at someone having such an idea of making such a thing, is that it needs more polish. The lack of writing in the "Dune'o'Pedia" and the lack of text in the submenus is the most glaring example of this. Not only will doing so make the mod look infinitely more professional, but the lack of such makes adapting to the new gameplay more difficult as you must experiment to ascertain the function of new buildings, units, etc.

Thanks for the feedback! I agree that the civilopedia needs more work. We can definitely fill in the "background" information for a lot of the techs, bonuses, units, etc with quotes from the Dune appendices, etc. I had posted about this on the modpack feedback thread earlier today. But I think that is not the area where you are suggesting we need more focus.

Did you find the Dune Wars Concepts tab of the civilopedia? It contains a few sections with key information about the concepts of the mod. If you had not found it, this is a big failure on the part of the mod, since that is where we have put the critical "orientation" information. If you found it, but it is not detailed enough, we would like to add more.

The main part of the civilopedia lists the stats for all the techs, bonuses, units, etc. Where do you go first to learn more about the tech, bonuses, units? Do you find that the "strategy" section of each unit entry is useful? Or is there some other place we should add more information?

Please help us to make the mod easier to pick up, by helping us focus on where to add information first.

WarKirby · Oct 5, 2009

The python error I mentioned earlier:

Code:

Traceback (most recent call last):

File "CvScreensInterface", line 1004, in forceScreenRedraw

File "CvMainInterface", line 3346, in redraw

File "CvMainInterface", line 7374, in updateHelpStrings

RuntimeError: unidentifiable C++ exception

Copied by hand from an ingame python exception.
I get this whenever I hold shift while mousing over any plot. It's clearly an issue with help popups. It doesn't happen when I'm hovering over black areas of the map, or other things which don't have little popups.

I have chipotle enabled, and hide python exceptions disabled

davidlallen · Oct 5, 2009

WarKirby said:
The python error I mentioned earlier:

I have seen this before but I don't know how to dig into it further and find out what is wrong. BTW, if you have logging enabled, then My Games/Beyond the Sword/LOGS contains a file PythonErr.log which contains the same exception text as the popups. It's easier to paste out of the file.

WarKirby · Oct 6, 2009

How are catchbasins supposed to work?

I've built one in every city, and the only thing that's happened is paralysing my growth because of the -3 Water.

Where are my grasslands? I have improvements all around cities, including adjacent to them.

Ahriman · Oct 6, 2009

In 1.54, no terraforming occurs until you have a reservoir (from the Arrakis paradise tech). So catchbasins do nothing until you have a reservoir built.
This will be changed in the next version.

We're in the process of moving to a change so that terraforming happens anywhere/only within your borders that has fresh water access.

And then the catchbasin will provide fresh water in a 1 tile access around cities, and the reservoir will provide fresh water in a 3 tile radius. So terraforming will occur: adjacent to wells, adjacent to catchbasin cities, or within 3 tiles of reservoir cities.

And the probability of terraforming will depend on the total number of catchbasins and reservoirs you control (probaility = 1% per turn + 0.25%*#catchbasins + 0.5#number reservoirs).

And the new terrain types will upgrade too (rugged -> rock -> anchor grass -> grasslands).

WarKirby · Oct 6, 2009

I built seven reservoirs of liet, and apparently nothing happened. I mean, the terraforming is working now, but there was no victory declaration.

And I get another python error when I look at the victory conditions screen. It also only displays mastery there.

In retrospect though, it was pretty easy to do. I just shut down my economy after getting arrakis transformation, and used my 200 :gold:

per turn to buy 5/7 of the reservoirs.

A terraforming victory should probably require terraforming some % of the planet. Although I guess that would require making it possible to terraform deep desert too, which would be cool.

Ahriman · Oct 6, 2009

Mastery victory condition (which no longer actually exists) blocks all/some of the other victory conditions from functioning.

You need to start the game with the Mastery victory unchecked.

We will hopefully fix this eventually, but possibly not in the next patch. We might just remove the master victory, since we no longer use it.

But we're still considering other victory possibilities too. Is there some way to make a spice-monopoly-based victory?

And we might tweak the terraforming victory so that it requires X% of the world to be in your borders and terraformed, so the buildings are the means to the end rather than the goal itself.

davidlallen · Oct 6, 2009

Ahriman said:
In 1.54, no terraforming occurs until you have a reservoir (from the Arrakis paradise tech). So catchbasins do nothing until you have a reservoir built. This will be changed in the next version.

Let me make some minor corrections about what is in 1.5.4 and what is planned for 1.5.5. In 1.5.4, your plots may upgrade if (a) they have fresh water and (b) you follow arrakis paradise and (c) you have at least one reservoir built. Catchbasins and wells provide fresh water in a one tile radius and reservoirs provide fresh water in a two tile radius. Salt, rugged and badlands all currently upgrade. All of this except (c) is described in the 1.5.4 release note.

In 1.5.5, the only change which is planned is to make (c) easier; you will only need at least one catchbasin built. This will make terraforming start much sooner. Ahriman has requested increasing the reservoir radius to 3. I have not studied the impact of this yet so I have not made this change.

WarKirby · Oct 6, 2009

davidlallen said:
In 1.5.5, the only change which is planned is to make (c) easier; you will only need at least one catchbasin built. This will make terraforming start much sooner. Ahriman has requested increasing the reservoir radius to 3. I have not studied the impact of this yet so I have not made this change.

I'd say add in the alternate requirement that, instead of being near fresh water, i can just be near another anchor grass/grassland plot, thus allowing terraforming to spread out of your territory and across the world.

Isn't the point of it generally to terraform the whole planet A mechanic which limits it almost exclusively to your own territory will never achieve that.

Ahriman · Oct 6, 2009

I'd say add in the alternate requirement that, instead of being near fresh water, i can just be near another anchor grass/grassland plot,

Its interesting, but this change was part of a deliberate technique to make fresh water access more important.

Isn't the point of it generally to terraform the whole planet

No. The intention is for terraforming only in your own territory. Territory outside cultural borders will not terraform, nor will plots of factions who do not have the Arrakis paradise civic.

Keep in mind that the sort of timeline we have is for Dune and Children of Dune and Dune Messiah. That is: the time of Paul Atreides and a little after.
It was to take ~300-400 years beyond that to terraform the planet.
We're just talking about getting to the 3% where the process becomes self sustaining.

AnotherPacifist · Oct 8, 2009

I won very early without building a single spice improvement (see below). I would suggest making the Reservoirs of Liet much more expensive (maybe double) and enable only after industrialism.
(My game was somewhat correct in that as Paul Atreides I founded Mahdi and spurned the spice trade. He probably wouldn't have agreed with the terraforming though. :lol:

)
Also, the Ixians seem to not expand very much. They are always on the bottom of the ladder.

Spoiler :

davidlallen · Oct 8, 2009

AnotherPacifist said:
I won very early without building a single spice improvement (see below). I would suggest making the Reservoirs of Liet much more expensive (maybe double) and enable only after industrialism.
(My game was somewhat correct in that as Paul Atreides I founded Mahdi and spurned the spice trade. He probably wouldn't have agreed with the terraforming though.)
Also, the Ixians seem to not expand very much. They are always on the bottom of the ladder.

Spoiler :

Could you zip/post a save game from near the end? I am interested in looking at some statistics.

Also, Arrakis Transformation (required to build Reservoirs) is at the same tech tier as Industrialism; would making this change actually make it any harder to win?

Ahriman · Oct 8, 2009

I agree that the build-7-reservoirs is far easier than any other victory condition and will definitely need to be changed somehow.

Cyanide · Oct 8, 2009

Hi all and gratz for the job made so far ! It's a great mod, even destipe the flaws. :thumbsup:

I enjoyed my games with the mod and even subscribed civfan just for the pleasure of giving you some feedback. ^^

My few notes :

- I don't think very intuitive that surface water is a ressource for your cities ONLY if you didn't dig a well on it. You loose the ressource by digging a well, just the opposite of vanilla... Is it explained somewhere ? I had to destroy wells at a point, strange thing...
- I did conquest an ennemy city with al the Ixian unhappiness buildings... My fault, I should have watch the details of the city but it made the war rather difficult to continue... You're not into "events", and I don't know if it's difficult, but offering the possibility to destroy these "evil" building when the city is conquered would be cool. When the choice is "conquer unhappiness buildings OR raze a holy city", it's a tough choice.

- For me the Dune books are a lot about spies. Of course there are big fight with the Sardaukars and the Fremen but more important are the traitor doctor, the assassins, infiltrations and constant paranoia. So I used a lot of infiltrators in my game. It worked very well as improvements are really long to build. But :
> If my neighbourg doesn't want to open borders, and is on his own "island", how could I send him spies ? In vanilla you have these special ships that can enter borders with spies (and GP and missionaries) aboard. Nothing like that here or did I miss it ?
> Spies can't go on desert wastes. So they can't sabotage spice harvester. These installations are supposed to be strategical and should be destroyed somehow even when on "peace". Ok, you can use the "spy or convert when on board" trick, but it's weird, and only works with open borders. Maybe a special unit could be dedicated to this critical activity ?
> I'm not sure but can infiltrators "steal" an outpost ? Would be great when it control access to spice !

I won't talk much about the IA which could be improved of course but I imagine it's planned somehow. Just one thing : Harkonen's slaves : it's a nice idea, but the IA likes to kill slaves on its territory, even if it means to expose its units out of city. Juste try with a thopter : you kill a unit, get a slave, retreat, the IA sends an unit to kill the slave, you kill it, get a slave, retreat... It shouldn't pay too much attention to these "free and non threatening' units during a war.

(sorry for my baaaad English.... )

Ahriman · Oct 8, 2009

Thanks for the feedback! Glad you're enjoying the mod.

- I don't think very intuitive that surface water is a ressource for your cities ONLY if you didn't dig a well on it.

The groundwater resource doesn't actually do anything. It is a remnant of an old system that we should probably remove. There is no reason to ever build a city on a groundwater resource.

I did conquest an ennemy city with al the Ixian unhappiness buildings...

This buildings are being changed, and they're being tied into the Technocracy religion. And they won't cause unhappiness outside their own city.

In vanilla you have these special ships that can enter borders with spies (and GP and missionaries) aboard. Nothing like that here or did I miss it ?

This is an interesting point that I hadn't thought about. I've never really used the spies much.
There are lots of ideas we had for tweaking spy missions (my two favorite ideas are having the BeneG spy have an espionage mission that works like an Influence-Driven-War pillage to weaken cultural influence on a tile, and a Sabotage mission for Ordos that damages vehicles in a tile), but espionage is hard to change codewise and get the AI to use well.
We would have to think about whether the AI can sensibly use transports with spies, or whether it uses spies amphibiously at all. Or maybe spies should get desert movement.

Maybe a special unit could be dedicated to this critical activity ?

I don't see sabotaging harvester improvements as being very critical, particularly when they're such transient temporary things in the mod, with low build times.

I'm not sure but can infiltrators "steal" an outpost ?

I don't really see how that would work, logically or codewise. Is the infiltrator bribing the troops there?

the IA likes to kill slaves on its territory, even if it means to expose its units out of city

Yeah, this is a problem with the vanilla civ AI, it loooves killing workers, and prioritizes those over anything else, presumably because it sees a combat win with 100% chance.
A great tactic in vanilla civ is often to sacrifice a worker to pull an invading stack out of position to buy you time to whittle it down more.
No easy fix for this I think. Maybe captured slaves should appear in the capital of the civ who generates them, or in the nearest city if the civ that generates them, rather than the tile they're captured on?
The main AI improvement for this mod has been better transport use and amphibious invasions.

(sorry for my baaaad English.... )

Your English is very clear. Much more so than half the native speakers who post on web forums :-)

davidlallen · Oct 8, 2009

Cyanide said:
Hi all and gratz for the job made so far! I enjoyed my games with the mod and even subscribed civfan just for the pleasure of giving you some feedback.

Welcome! Did you find out about the mod through moddb.com, or were you already lurking on civfan?

- I don't think very intuitive that surface water is a ressource for your cities ONLY if you didn't dig a well on it. You loose the ressource by digging a well, just the opposite of vanilla... Is it explained somewhere ? I had to destroy wells at a point, strange thing...

What benefit do you get by destroying a well? The well increases the water yield of the plot. I can't think of anything which happens for an empty ground water plot.

- I did conquest an enemy city with al the Ixian unhappiness buildings... offering the possibility to destroy these "evil" building when the city is conquered would be cool.

Excellent point. I had not thought of that. I'll look into how to accomplish it. In other mods, or in vanilla, are there events which allow you to choose some buildings to destroy?

If my neighbour doesn't want to open borders, and is on his own "island", how could I send him spies ? ... Spies can't go on desert wastes.

I had thought of that, but hadn't done anything about it yet. There is a promotion "suspensor" which is automatically granted to suspensor units; it grants double movement on desert. I was thinking of making this available to spies, at a certain tech level. This would represent a small personal suspensor craft that the spy would use. I have to check how this interacts with the logistics line of spy promotions; I don't accidentally want spies to have a movement rate of 12 or something.

Ok, you can use the "spy or convert when on board" trick

Ah-ha! More annoying bugs related to all terrain transports.

Harkonen's slaves : it's a nice idea, but the IA likes to kill slaves on its territory, even if it means to expose its units out of city. Juste try with a thopter : you kill a unit, get a slave, retreat, the IA sends an unit to kill the slave, you kill it, get a slave, retreat...

Interesting point. When you make peace with somebody, the game pushes all your units to the closest point outside his borders. I am not sure what happens when you make peace with somebody, who is on an island, and your units don't have boats available. Does the game drown them? It may be reasonable to push the slave outside borders even if they drown. Or maybe you never generate slaves when inside their own territory. What do you think?

Deliverator · Oct 8, 2009

Ahriman said:
The groundwater resource doesn't actually do anything. It is a remnant of an old system that we should probably remove. There is no reason to ever build a city on a groundwater resource.

I'm confused about this. There is the Groundwater bonus that you dig wells on, there was the old old Water resource but I think that's been gone for a while...

In vanilla you have these special ships that can enter borders with spies (and GP and missionaries) aboard. Nothing like that here or did I miss it ?

We don't really have a Privateer equivalent - it's a good point. Perhaps some stealth units with Hidden Nationality would be appropriate.

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