1.6 feedback

[Ahriman]

Perhaps the Thumper promo can be added to Fremen units after they research some tech that is not in the first tier, just to delay the advantage.

I quite like this, if its feasible. Stillsuits?

 

[Deliverator]

Why does moving units through Spice cost more movement points? It doesn't feel like there is a logical reason for this. It seems really strange that my sandriding Fremen hit a wall when they hit the spice...

 

[Ahriman]

Why does moving units through Spice cost more movement points? It doesn't feel like there is a logical reason for this.

I think the reason for this was to stop workers being able to move onto spice tiles and begin building in the same turn.

We could probably get a similar effect though by increasing the build time on harvesters by 1 and removing the movement penalty.

Also: the "spice worker" UU for Arrakis Spice civic should probably have 3 movement points, or double moves on desert, or something. Otherwise its not really worth building.

 

[Xaos]

... It may be too powerful for a first level unit; what do you think?

Well how about something new? Thumper ability does sound much more powerful then I was looking for. I really dont need scouts to eliminate the worms, just avoid them.

How about a widthdrawal ability against worms only? So the worm may attack your scout, do damage, but the scout can widthdraw before being killed. The scout would need to heal, but they live to explore another day...

 

[Ahriman]

How about a widthdrawal ability against worms only?

This doesn't really sound feasible. Also, the scout wouldn't really need to heal, the only things in the early game that can hurt it are barbarian warriors and worms (who will kill it even if healed to full strength).
So it would have a very similar effect as invulnerability, even if it could be coded.

 

[davidlallen]

Entirely separate issue that I am reminded of; you once posted a list of units that barbarians have access to (or rather, the file where this is located).

Please see civilizations/civ4civilizationinfos.xml. Search for CIVILIZATION_BARBARIAN. Search under that for <Units>. You will see a large list like this:

	<Unit>
		<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_SMUGGLER</UnitClassType>
		<UnitType>NONE</UnitType>
	</Unit>

A UnitType NONE means the civ may not build any unit of that base type. The UnitTypes are defined in units/civ4unitclassinfo.xml but you probably know that by now.

 

[davidlallen]

I think the reason for this was to stop workers being able to move onto spice tiles and begin building in the same turn. We could probably get a similar effect though by increasing the build time on harvesters by 1 and removing the movement penalty.

I don't think that was on purpose, or perhaps I have forgotten the historical reason. I will put it onto the to-do list; it is a one character change in terrains/civ4featureinfos.xml.

Also: the "spice worker" UU for Arrakis Spice civic should probably have 3 movement points, or double moves on desert, or something. Otherwise its not really worth building.

It has a +50% work rate. Is that too weak? A secondary point of building it is so that you can automate it, and be sure that it will only build harvesters. Do you think movement 3 will make it more useful? At some point workers mostly get around by carryall, so it may not be too useful by the midgame.

 

[davidlallen]

<several comments about sandrider, thumper, and fremen scouts>

In the books, it seems thumpers did "kill" the worm, that is, after destroying the thumper, the worm vanished. That's what happens now in the game when it eats an improvement or attacks a unit. You don't get any experience and the number of worms on the map remains constant, so it doesn't seem too powerful to me.

It is easy to make the thumper promotion available later in the tech tree. Granting it automatically to Fremen units is possible but a little complicated; presumably the player would expect to have the automatic promotion suddenly appear on existing units also. So when the tech is developed by the Fremen, new code needs to go put it on all the units.

But, it seems a little artificial to do that. You attract a worm to ride it using a thumper, so saying that you can have sandrider but not thumper seems odd.

There are a few problems with the idea of withdrawal chance for scouts. The effect isn't really that much different from thumper as I have defined it. Also, we have discussed before that FFH and perhaps some other mods allow withdrawal when defending, but withdrawal in vanilla (and DW) only works when you attack. And there isn't any existing way to make withdrawl work only against animals, or given unitcombats. So it would be some work to implement.

 

[Ahriman]

Please see civilizations/civ4civilizationinfos.xml. Search for CIVILIZATION_BARBARIAN. Search under that for <Units>. You will see a large list like this:

Ok. From looking at the file, nearly every unit in the game is in the list with NONE availability.

It also likes like the section is fairly empty for most other civs.

So, if I want to enable any units and buildings for barbarians, do I just delete the entry with:

<Unit>
		<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_SMUGGLER</UnitClassType>
		<UnitType>NONE</UnitType>
	</Unit>

from the list?

Or is there more to it than that?

It has a +50% work rate. Is that too weak? A secondary point of building it is so that you can automate it, and be sure that it will only build harvesters. Do you think movement 3 will make it more useful?

The AI, and many human players, cannot be bothered moving their units around by carryall.
The difference between +50% work rate and +0% workrate is the difference between 5 turns building a harvester and 3 turns (epic gamespeed).
And this is capped.

If a spice tile is 12 tiles away, 2 moves vs 3 moves is the difference between 6 turns and 4 turns. Less for closer tiles, more for tiles further away. So the bonuses are similar in magnitude.

With just the 50% build rate, they aren't sufficiently more valuable than an ordinary worker, that can also build all kinds of other stuff.

Making them 3 moves (or double moves on desert waste/deep desert) in addition to the +50% work rate would make them significantly more useful.

I like the can only build harvesters, as you can automate and let them rip.

Also, another way of implementing the spice worker would be to give it a carryall graphic, and change its name to "Harvester air wing" or "Spice carryall" or something similar. So that the unit feels more directly like the carryall-assisted harvester operation that we see in Dune - but being done automatically.

I think it would be more flavorful to have a high movement rate, high build rate flying spice worker that was more expensive, and just having a couple of them on automate could do a good job of keeping your harvesters maintained.

presumably the player would expect to have the automatic promotion suddenly appear on existing units also

Ideally, but it would be relatively harmless to not do so, and to just apply it to newly constructed units. Stillsuits is a very early tech; the number of units you have by then is small.

But, it seems a little artificial to do that. You attract a worm to ride it using a thumper, so saying that you can have sandrider but not thumper seems odd.

I see what you mean, but again I think the fluff-loss is pretty unimportant.
But I'd be fine with just having thumpers from game-start too.

 

[davidlallen]

It also looks like the section is fairly empty for most other civs.

The list is supposed to be empty for most civs. Apart from the barbarian restrictions, you also implement UU with this list (see the Hawk Thopter in the Atreides section). There are not many of those. When you look into the details, you may also observe some units, like the smuggler, which do have a lot of entries. These are not really UU, because there is no "base" unit which is replaced. To implement this, the owning civilization has a matching UnitType and all the other civs have a UnitType NONE for that UnitClass.

So, if I want to enable any units and buildings for barbarians, do I just delete the entry with:

Yes, just delete the entry and the barbarian can build them. The tricky part is that there may be some random units which were added later, and don't happen to be on the barbarian no-unit list. These bugs take a little work to find. Probably somebody may report a late game bug, "Holy smokes! I just saw a barbarian with a heavy scorpion!" or something like that.

Making them 3 moves (or double moves on desert waste/deep desert) in addition to the +50% work rate would make them significantly more useful.

The vanilla Indian Fast Worker has move 3 but no work rate improvement. Let's try that.

Also, another way of implementing the spice worker would be to give it a carryall graphic, and change its name to "Harvester air wing" or "Spice carryall" or something similar.

That may make a good separate late game spice industry unit. Or perhaps, even an unrestricted unit. It would have movement 4-5 like a carryall unit, but it would save you from micromanaging to get workers and carryalls into the same stack, then loading and unloading. BTW, I am pretty sure that vanilla workers do get carried from place to place by naval units, so I think the AI *can* use this feature. But reducing micromanagement this way is probably still a good idea.

 

[Ahriman]

Yes, just delete the entry and the barbarian can build them.

Ok, I'll delete a few. Basically, I think barbarians should be able to build monuments, maybe libraries (for culture) and a some of the core infantry units, and the lowest levels of suspensors.

A UU version of the crysknife fighter (with only 1 move) might also be nice.

The vanilla Indian Fast Worker has move 3 but no work rate improvement. Let's try that.

The fast worker can also build all the normal improvements. I would not build a 3-move worker who could only build harvesters; I would rather have regular workers.
It needs significant bonuses (eg faster move and work rate) to be worth building.

That may make a good separate late game spice industry unit

I don't see any particular reason for two separate spice industry units (and I'd prefer to just restrict this effect to spice industry civic).
I'd be fine with moving it to a later tech, but a single unit for this is probably enough.

It would have movement 4-5 like a carryall unit, but it would save you from micromanaging to get workers and carryalls into the same stack, then loading and unloading.

Yes. I'd see it as a single unit with 4-5 movement and a +50% work rate, that could build only harvesters, and had a carryall graphic of some kind (maybe holding a harvester underneath it?).

BTW, I am pretty sure that vanilla workers do get carried from place to place by naval units, so I think the AI *can* use this feature

I think we found that the AI did not transport workers across continents, and the AI certainly doesn't transport workers to build ocean-domain improvements.

I haven't seen the AI in Dunewars transport workers, it always just walks them there. Which is fine, its why we gave them full terrain access.

 

[Ahriman]

A few units and culture buildings deleted.

1 movement barbarian-only variants of crysknife fighter and Naib's chosen ("Desert Raider" and "Wormrider") might be cool to have too.

 

[arkham4269]

I don't think that was on purpose, or perhaps I have forgotten the historical reason. I will put it onto the to-do list; it is a one character change in terrains/civ4featureinfos.xml.

Any possible chance when time permits to have a different graphic for the spice workers as opposed to normal workers? It can just be a bit annoying to send a spice worker on a long trip to somewhere and then realize they aren't a normal worker.

 

[Slvynn]

Ok, i'll add it to my to-do list, perhaps some retexture

 

[Ahriman]

Ok, i'll add it to my to-do list, perhaps some retexture

I'd hold off on this until we have a consensus that we actually need a spice worker unit with a standard worker-type graphic.

 

[davidlallen]

A few units and culture buildings deleted.

1 movement barbarian-only variants of crysknife fighter and Naib's chosen ("Desert Raider" and "Wormrider") might be cool to have too.

Thank you for sending these updated xml files. I am concerned that it will be difficult for everybody to know which versions of various files they have, or to make sure they have all the newest ones. It may be worthwhile to collect a few changed files and put them together into one zipfile, and give it a patch release number like 1.6.5.3 or whatever. Use the patch release thread for coordination of the numbers.

 

[davidlallen]

The fast worker can also build all the normal improvements. I would not build a 3-move worker who could only build harvesters; I would rather have regular workers. It needs significant bonuses (eg faster move and work rate) to be worth building.

Fair enough. I wanted the spice worker to come fairly early in the tech tree. That is why I think a *second* carryall unit, once carryalls become more common, is a good idea rather than merging them into one.

I suppose that making the carryall unit also limited to spice industry civic will frustrate the spice paradise or neutral players, because they can't build it. We do need to make sure the spice industry civic does not become *too* popular. Should we have two units or one (I vote for two)? Should the new carryall unit be restricted to spice industry (I could go either way)?

 

[Ahriman]

Should we have two units or one (I vote for two)? Should the new carryall unit be restricted to spice industry (I could go either way)?

I have no strong opinion on one unit vs two (just make sure the first can upgrade to the second).

I'd restrict it to spice industry civic, along with the "spice silo" building that is +0.15 gold per spice resource.

Terraforming economies are still incredibly powerful. You can have cities of size ~15 while other players have cities of ~size 10.

The only real downside from terraforming is the diplo penalty.

 

[Slvynn]

Diplo penalty which is still, questionable - if there is weaker rival - it get no chances to make better infrastructure to chase you in power . And he is weaker, so he wont attack you, and will be just crippled.
I agree with all those new additions to Spice economy. Also perhaps another penalty , with guild, which comes lets say when one completed 60% of required terraforming. (Strong Barb units or no offworld)

 

[Slvynn]

I think we need o boost guardian type units -soldier-infiltrator-MG-HT . Atm they are too weak compared to aviable set of city attackers. Melee line is very potent now, also ignoring defence buildings and have highter strenghts than same era defence units. I think regular "city defender" units should be tuned up abit to match so powerfull Melee line.