1.6 feedback

[Ahriman]

Diplo penalty which is still, questionable - if there is weaker rival - it get no chances to make better infrastructure to chase you in power . And he is weaker, so he wont attack you, and will be just crippled.

?
A diplomacxy penalty is significant because it causes the other civs to gang up on you.

I think we need o boost guardian type units -soldier-infiltrator-MG-HT

I assume you mean Infantry, not infiltrator (which is the spy unit).

I have no strong objection to reassessing the strength of this unit line, but we would have to think about it very carefully, as there is lots of scope for messing up. How much defense strength should be needed to hold off how much offensive strength? How should we evaluate the fact that we don't quite have simultaneous tiers; infantry are lower tech cost than quads or bladesmen, maula guardsmen are lower tech cost than hardened bladesmen, heavy troopers are (slightly) lower tech cost than shield troopers, etc.
If infantry can easily fight off bladesmen, then there is no reward for beelining bladesmen and maknig an early assault. A bladesman army becomes rapidly obsolete as soon as the enemy hits maula guardsmen - and hardened bladesmen really don't do overwhelmingly well vs maula guardsmen.

If we boost infantry strength, we probably would also need to also make them cost more, and/or make increase their tech cost and/or tweak the tech tree requirements.

Part of the issue is that the low base strength on guardsmen units means that they do not benefit from promotions as much as other units do.
Eg: Infantry unit = ~3+45% city defense +25% fortification bonus = strength 3*1.7=5.1. (Also a first strike). Infantry unit with city defender 2 = strenth 3*2.1 = 6.3.
Bladesmen unit = ~5+20% city attack = 5*1.2 = 6.
Bladesmen with city raider 2 = 5*1.6 = 8.

So, much larger gain from promotions in the latter case.

But we probably don't really want to boost infantry or maula guardsmen to strength 4 or 6.
Maybe give them an extra first strike chance?


The alternative though is weakening other city assault units, or making them more specialized. Eg: lowering shield trooper strength while increasing their city attack bonus, so that they get less benefit from city raider promotions, or lowering the city attack bonus on melee units, or reducing the collateral damage from siege units (missile launcher probably does too much collateral).

Yet another alternative is to push the melee tech costs a little later.

I would suggest though that we try and change how the defense system works (stacking city walls with cultural defenses) before we start messing with units too much.

David, do you know how difficult this would be (adopting FFH-style city defenses)? Do you think its worth it? (It makes defensive buildings universally valuable, instead of occasionally valuable).

 

[Slvynn]

I think implementing FFH like scheme and adding first strikes (hey - they are with guns) to guardsmen will do the trick - that way it will balance them against melee units which have CR bonuses but vulnerable to first strikes

As for diplomacy - diplomacy is nothing as penaly - if you play low civ map, or already used your big pros to rise big empire that penalty means nothing - weaker civs will be able to gang against you, but not always - There is always different groups, and main point - when you 1 vs 1 against that civ diplo bonus means nothing. It does not add to benefactors (not you - others) military potence. It does not add to their economy . Thus it is weak, very situational bonus in case it being exchanged for some strong pro of infrastructure or economy. Even FFH have not such mechanics. Diplo penaly is weak at way it is implemented now, it is ok to make relationships between certain civs spicy but it can not be compared to any other cons.
Diplomatic bonuses/penalties need some other thing to balance them.
Take case of BTL and 3 civs. Each 3 civs founded different religions. Now what? Quite common situation. BTL have more pros, stronger, because they are designed to be "balanced by huge diplo penalties" - but that not work in this case, and in many others. As result, common result, we have overpowered civ, because "diplo penlaties" are not working.
Thus such penalties are most minor penalties in game, and we should not overstimate them.

 

[Ahriman]

I think implementing FFH like scheme and adding first strikes (hey - they are with guns) to guardsmen will do the trick

I think you mean *defensive* strikes, not first strikes. [Guardsmen units already have 1 first strike.]
Defensive strikes on a unit give it a chance of doing damage to a unit attacking that stack, even if the defenensive strikes unit is not the one defending. This mechanic was added in FFH.
vs
First strikes, which mean that the unit does not take damage in the first X rounds (X=#first strikes) if it loses the round. This is a standard vanilla mechanic.

I'm unsure of the value of adding defensive strikes. The effect of introducing defensive strikes is to encourage stacking even more; defensive strikes favor large stacks.

I don't see how using defensive strikes would be superior to other tweaks, like changing defensive strength or adding more first strikes. Other than encouraging stacking, defensive strikes don't really have any separate function.

that way it will balance them against melee units which have CR bonuses but vulnerable to first strikes

This doesn't make sense to me. How are melee units particularly vulnerable to first strikes? They're no more or less vulnerable to first strikes than any other unit.

Defensive strikes are equally valuable against all unit types.
First strikes are slightly more valuable against a unit that is low strength (like low strength collateral damage units) than against high strength units (eg melee units with lots of bonuses).

* * *

Yes, diplomacy is not useful if you're locked in a game with only 2 players.
But its useful (in a minor way) in every other circumstance. The higher is your diplomacy rating, the more easily you will be able to:
a) trade for happiness, health, or strategic resources, all of which improve your economy or military.
b) get defensive pacts or permanent alliances, or bring allies into your side in wars

and most importantly
c) you will be a lower target for other peoples' wars, and your enemies will find it harder to bring in war allies against you.

These are all valuable. And conversely, having lower diplomacy will make all these things harder.
If diplomacy means I am at war with 1 enemy instead of 3 - that's pretty valuable!
So don't give me "diplo bonus means nothing".

Why do you insist on a 1v1 matchup or a game of only 4 players, which is not how the game is really intended to be played? If I am in a game of 9 players, then as Tleilaxu I will never have a natural ally, whereas as any other faction I will usually be able to guarantee having someoen else of my religion, who I can then trade with. I think we should be balancing the game around a standard map with 9 civs.
So yes - Tleilaxu would be slightly stronger in a game with only 2-4 players, and a diplomatic Atreides would be slightly stronger in a game with lots of players.

I agree that he bonus is relatively minor, but its a bonus worth having all the same. I'm not sure why you're so against it.

 

[VlaDeatHell]

Just some minor thing to add to your discussion, LORE-wise Atreides should NOT have a dipomacy bonus, if you look at the books, they were actually HATED by almost all the Great Houses, not to mention Shadam or their quarrel with the BG (speaking about the "Jessica having son" issue and KH thingy, ya know ). So it's actually pretty lame to add them that kind of a bonus. The thing they ARE famous for, and actually the reason for the war on Dune to start is their incredible ability of gaining zealot-like loyalty of their subordinates (actually the reason for the war is that they actually have some troops that match the Sardukaur and Leto being a threat to the Emperor himself, the Harkonnen-Atreides vendetta is just the means which Shadam used to cover this up). Maybe just a small "Loyalty" Atreides only starting unit promotion of +10% combat strength will work? That really needs testing if it'll actually have the desired effect, I don't want them either OP or nerfed but I really think the biggest thing about Atreides is the morale theme.
And if someone mentions Alliah or Leto II here, I don't think they're actually the Atreides we should be speaking of, if you look carefully into the lore (again, sorry ) they are more Fremen than anything else.

Another thing I think is unwise is making the Sardukaur an URU and not a UU. How do you thing a legion of elite troops that get trained in the harsh IMPERIAL prison planet of Salusa Secundus and that are FANATICALLY loyal to the emperor (if you remember Children of Dune the book Farad'n has to GIVE to Leto II in the end) swear allegiance to another House?

These are just some LORE observations, not about game balancing. I think though that actually the races/leaders that should be the main theme of the mod (ya know, Atreides, Harkonnen, Corino and the Fremen) are less deep, unique and a bit nerfed when compared to the Ecaz, BTl, currently BG etc. which is ... lame, IMO. Don't you think that you should first carefully consider what EXACTLY makes the houses/factions of Dune so unique and interesting and then add them bonuses that really fit the Dune universe? I'm talking about just considering, not any major change of the current mod setting or anything like that...

Anyways, keep up the good work, I'm just about to start a new game with the Atreides on 1.6.5

P.S Slvynn, I don't really think that the major audience of the mod are the multiplayer type... Not to mention perfect balance is IMO achievable by Blizzard and their simple mechanics RTSes with 3 races, not achieved in Civilization after 4 games, 20 years of developing or the BTS itself and absolutely impossible to achieve in a custom mod with 9 factions with 3 leaders each and a huge number of unique things about every single one of them... Generally speaking... Multiplayer balance is good, general balance of a game in the default mod setting (speaking 9 civs, large/normal map, etc. ) is better and perfect balance is great but I think the poll really showed that MP players are a minority. So is it better to forsake what the majority of the audience of the mod would like ?

P.P.S. Sorry Diplomacy is a BIG thing in Civilization. MAJOR! There is a HUGE difference if you are the founder of imperial, 4 other civs share the same religion and you can trade with them, have open borders and they dont declare war on you every once in a while or you're playng as a terraforming civ with no friends, not to mention as BTl... Just an example...

 

[davidlallen]

The thing they ARE famous for, and actually the reason for the war on Dune to start is their incredible ability of gaining zealot-like loyalty of their subordinates (actually the reason for the war is that they actually have some troops that match the Sardukaur and Leto being a threat to the Emperor himself, the Harkonnen-Atreides vendetta is just the means which Shadam used to cover this up). Maybe just a small "Loyalty" Atreides only starting unit promotion of +10% combat strength will work?

Actually, they had several loyalty based effects in earlier versions, such as a draft effect in cities and a +25% combat effect from the Atreides Heir. The draft effect got negative feedback since they wound up with large armies rather than loyal ones. The AH unit was removed because I wanted to add the Kwisatz Haderach line using these effects.

Maybe we can use the same mechanic for AH and KH but make the effects different enough. For example, the KH line could have first strikes and large visibility range, while the AH has combat bonuses? High loyalty could also be represented as a slightly faster heal rate. Do you think this would be enough difference?

Another thing I think is unwise is making the Sardukaur an URU and not a UU. How do you thing a legion of elite troops that get trained in the harsh IMPERIAL prison planet of Salusa Secundus and that are FANATICALLY loyal to the emperor (if you remember Children of Dune the book Farad'n has to GIVE to Leto II in the end) swear allegiance to another House?

Interesting point. The key situation is, some other faction is friends with Corrino and Corrino trades them a Sardaukar Cooperation resource; now they build some Sardaukar units. So far this seems to match canon; the Emperor can certainly lend units for a price. But then they become unfriendly and end the trade. What happens to those units? We have set it up as URU so that these units stay in play. Would it be interesting / fun if these units either disappeared, or actually got gifted to Corrino? This would be an interesting price to pay, for losing friendship.

In related news we are having trouble with giving Corrino a unique play style. Do you think that making the Sardaukar into UU would solve this? I am not sure it would. Is there some other way we can make Corrino play differently from the other factions? For example, Fremen also have powerful melee units. In fact due to the Water Debt resource, these Fremen units are also URU. Does that seem ok lore-wise?

 

[Ahriman]

VlaDeatHell, some very useful feedback here. Getting lore and flavor right is a very part of the design.

Just some minor thing to add to your discussion, LORE-wise Atreides should NOT have a dipomacy bonus, if you look at the books, they were actually HATED by almost all the Great Houses, not to mention Shadam or their quarrel with the BG (speaking about the "Jessica having son" issue and KH thingy, ya know

I disagree with this. Duke Leto (and his father) were widely admired in the Landsraad. This was one of the biggest reasons why they were a threat to Shaddam and why he implemented his plan to destroy them; their popularity was a threat to his personal power (as was their development of super-elite soldiers). Obviously the House prequel books are less canon, but there are a bunch of things from those that demonstrate the widespread respect/admiration for Paulus and Leto I.
And the Bene Gesserit were mad at Jessica; they had nothing against House Atreides.

Leto was respected as honorable and was well-liked by most of the Great Houses. Or they thought he was politically clever for avoiding being punished after the (framed no-ship) attack on the Tleilaxu - and so admired him for that.

A diplomacy bonus is very thematic for the Atreides (at least for Leto I and young Paul).

The thing they ARE famous for, and actually the reason for the war on Dune to start is their incredible ability of gaining zealot-like loyalty of their subordinates

Agreed, but its very hard to think of good ways to implement this.
One way: remove their access to infiltrators (using spies), but give them very large espionage bonuses, so that they are very *resistant* to enemy espioange.

Maybe just a small "Loyalty" Atreides only starting unit promotion of +10% combat strength will work?

I don't think a straight combat bonus feels very much like Loyalty.
Sylvnn's suggestion of a small elite Ducal Guard feels more flavorful.

Actually: this gives me another idea. We could have Ducal Guard UU replacements with a small national limit (4?) for several units.
So, you could have Ducal Guard 1 that replaces maula guardsmen, Ducal Guard 2 that replaces shield troopers, and Ducal Guard 3 that replaces Lasgun Troopers. Or somethnig like that.
Each of these are a superior version, but with a small limit. So you get to have your small grouop of super-elites at every stage in the tech tree.

And if someone mentions Alliah or Leto II here, I don't think they're actually the Atreides we should be speaking of, if you look carefully into the lore (again, sorry ) they are more Fremen than anything else.

Herein lies a central design dilemma.
The Atreides of Leto I, and what Paul would have been had the Harkonnen plot failed, are really the core of where I see Atreides flavor (at least as I've been trying to implement it).
Post-Paul Atreides (Alia and Leto II) really have nothing in common thematically or flavorwise with the Atreides at all, so its very hard to create a design that can encapsulate two wildly different themes.

I wonder if we should even consider splitting these into two factions somehow? Or just continue to build an Atreides theme built around Leto I, and just have the Leto II and Alia be a bit out of flavor.

How do you thing a legion of elite troops that get trained in the harsh IMPERIAL prison planet of Salusa Secundus and that are FANATICALLY loyal to the emperor (if you remember Children of Dune the book Farad'n has to GIVE to Leto II in the end) swear allegiance to another House?

The idea is that they're not swearing allegiance to another house; the Emperor is letting another house use them temporarily for their own purposes, as Shaddam lets the Harkonnens use Sardaukar without directly/openly attacknig the Atreides himself.
The Sardaukar Cooperation resource felt like a nice flavorful way of trying to implement this.
I'm not particularly attached to it though.
But just maknig Sardaukar into Corrino UUs would be unfortunate if it meant that there was no longer of implementing the feel of the Sardaukar-in-Harkonnen-livery type of feel, and the indirect use of them.

Don't you think that you should first carefully consider what EXACTLY makes the houses/factions of Dune so unique and interesting and then add them bonuses that really fit the Dune universe?

Absolutely. The designs for all of the factions should not yet be considered "done", we are still very much in the design phase. So changes aren't even "rebalancing" yet, they're still in the "making stuff more interestnig" phase.

Spoiler :

P.S Slvynn, I don't really think that the major audience of the mod are the multiplayer type... Not to mention perfect balance is IMO achievable by Blizzard and their simple mechanics RTSes with 3 races, not achieved in Civilization after 4 games, 20 years of developing or the BTS itself and absolutely impossible to achieve in a custom mod with 9 factions with 3 leaders each and a huge number of unique things about every single one of them... Generally speaking... Multiplayer balance is good, general balance of a game in the default mod setting (speaking 9 civs, large/normal map, etc. ) is better and perfect balance is great but I think the poll really showed that MP players are a minority. So is it better to forsake what the majority of the audience of the mod would like ?

P.P.S. Sorry Diplomacy is a BIG thing in Civilization. MAJOR! There is a HUGE difference if you are the founder of imperial, 4 other civs share the same religion and you can trade with them, have open borders and they dont declare war on you every once in a while or you're playng as a terraforming civ with no friends, not to mention as BTl... Just an example...

I do not think I need to comment on this, for obvious reasons...

Would it be interesting / fun if these units either disappeared, or actually got gifted to Corrino?

I don't think this would be much fun, losing units instantly because of fickle AI trading behavior.

It would also offer a potential exploit: trade the Sardaukar cooperation to the AI, let them build several of the units, then cancel the trade after 10+ turns, destroying all their units. Wait a turn, then trade it back to them. Rinse, repeat.
You manage to suck out a lot of enemy hammers that get totally wasted.

For example, Fremen also have powerful melee units. In fact due to the Water Debt resource, these Fremen units are also URU. Does that seem ok lore-wise?

I should mention here that the Fremen Leaders are pretty slow-to-trust, maybe even too slow, so you have to be very friendly with them to manage to get the resource.

 

[davidlallen]

One way: remove their access to infiltrators (using spies), but give them very large espionage bonuses, so that they are very *resistant* to enemy espioange.

That is interesting. It combines loyalty with honesty. We hope to eventually remove Fremen access to vehicles, so it is symmetric somehow to remove Atreides access to spies. I can control access to different espionage missions; are there some missions which the Atriedes spy should have, or simply remove their spies altogether? It is easy to do by adding UnitType NONE in civilizationinfos.xml.

What system should we use for espionage resistance: automatic espionage defense in any city under their cultural control? A UB which has espionage defense?

Sylvnn's suggestion of a small elite Ducal Guard feels more flavorful. Actually: this gives me another idea. We could have Ducal Guard UU replacements with a small national limit (4?) for several units.

Unfortunately a UU cannot have a separate national limit; the limit is defined by the unit type, and by definition a UU and its base unit have the same unit type. Although this would require an sdk change, it may be an easy one: what do you think about a national limit on promotions? For example, a Ducal Guard promotion which gives say +25% combat, but a given player can only have four units with the promotion at a time. If the promotion has a prereq of say Combat II, then only experienced units would qualify for it anyway. I think we had discussed the concept of limited number promotions for the proposed Ginaz line also; we could use it in both places.

 

[davidlallen]

We hope to eventually remove Fremen access to vehicles ...

Which reminds me, with jdog5000's improvement to Fremen all terrain settlers, is it time to take the next step in experimenting with removing Fremen vehicles? We had discussed two ideas: make vehicles unbuildable by Fremen, and give Fremen a vehicle capture capability. The vehicle capture is identical to the Harkonnen slave ability, except (a) it only operates on vehicle and thopter unitcombats, and (b) the unit type of the "slave" is same as the unit type of the loser.

Shall we try that whole thing at once, or can anybody suggest a more gradual step?

 

[Ahriman]

That is interesting. It combines loyalty with honesty.

That's the idea. I would remove the spies entirely. That way, you don't even need an "espionage resistance" necessarily, you can just give them some large EP generators. If I generate lots of EPs, but can't spend it on anything, then I will have large EP ratios with my enemies, which intrinsically (I think??) increases the EP cost of any spy missions they want to try against me, and increases my passive chance to catch their spies in my territory (again, I think?).
A UB with espionage resistance (hey, how about a replacement for the Interment camp, which isn't very Atreides flavorful anyway - Propaganda Corps?) could also work well.

[There's a great line in Dune where Leto says something like "how would my people know what a great and honorable ruler I was if my propaganda corps didn't tell them so?"]

Shall we try that whole thing at once, or can anybody suggest a more gradual step?

The biggest issue with a Fremen chance isn't the vehicle removal, its the transport removal. They don't need vehicle units or hornets or thopters, but they *do* need suspensor transports and carryalls.

Currently, Fremen can use settlers across desert.
However, AFAIK the Fremen AI must still use transports in order to launch amphibious invasions. You have to get a Fremen-specific AI that will allow it to launch invasions using stacks of sandrider melee and guardsmen units.

Simialrly, you will have to get the AI so that they can use melee/guardsmen units to attack thopter and suspensor units on desert tiles, like how AI thopters/suspensors can.
If I have a thopter sitting just offshore from your city 2 tiles away, an AI thopter will come and attack me, but an AI sandrider unit won't. You'd have to fix this.

 

[davidlallen]

you can just give them some large EP generators. If I generate lots of EPs, but can't spend it on anything, then I will have large EP ratios with my enemies, which intrinsically (I think??) increases the EP cost of any spy missions they want to try against me, and increases my passive chance to catch their spies in my territory (again, I think?). A UB with espionage resistance (hey, how about a replacement for the Interment camp, which isn't very Atreides flavorful anyway - Propaganda Corps?) could also work well.

This seems promising. Perhaps the Atreides Palace (which is already a UB) could generate more EP than the regular palace. The tech which allows building spies also allows building the courthouse, which also gives EP. So perhaps they should also have a courthouse UB which gives more EP. I don't think "Propaganda Corps" is the best name if the theme we are aiming at is honesty and loyalty; is there a better UB name for courthouse that sounds honorable? "Ducal Court" maybe? If we bump the EP from both of these buildings and remove spies, that may be enough for a playtest.

The biggest issue with a Fremen chance isn't the vehicle removal, its the transport removal. They don't need vehicle units or hornets or thopters, but they *do* need suspensor transports and carryalls

So perhaps one stage is (a) enable capture of vehicles and thopters, (b) remove hornets, thopters and vehicles, (c) still allow suspensors. Amphibious assaults will be same as before since they already can't build scout thopters.

You will have to get the AI so that they can use melee/guardsmen units to attack thopter and suspensor units on desert tiles, like how AI thopters/suspensors can.

I think this is purely because only the lower level units get sandrider. I had objected to giving rifle units access to sandrider since a melee unit doesn't need much supply. They can just sheath their knife/sword and jump on a sandworm. However, rifle units need ammo, repair equipment and etc, so I have a harder time visualizing that. In order to achieve the theme of "only captured vehicles" I guess I would have to give up on this point.

 

[arkham4269]

In regard to the Atreides, I think that Leto I is really what we think of as Atredies. I like the idea that the Atreides be broken in two although I'm not sure what you'd call the Post-Mahdi Atreides. Perhaps the Atredies could have Paul and the 'Post-Atreides' could have Muad-Dib.

I mean I was watching the Sy-Fy Children of Dune recently and it reminded me that Alia seriously embraced the Bene Gessirit wat of 'using' the religion of Muad-dib to control people. So where Leto I used diplomacy and loyalty, Muad-dib Alia used theocracy and crusade and thus are very different.

This Imperial Atredies House would be more Imperial and thus would actually have problems with the Fremen since canonically the Fremen realized that the Arrakis Paradise ended up destroying their way of life. Perhaps this house could have some priest units or units to represent the crusaders that Muad'dib unleashed upon the galaxy.

 

[Ahriman]

I don't think "Propaganda Corps" is the best name if the theme we are aiming at is honesty and loyalty; is there a better UB name for courthouse that sounds honorable?

Well, that depends on how cynical you are. Thats one of the things I think is intriguing about Leto - as referenced in the approx quote I used. How much of their great reputation is because they *are* honorable and loyal, and how much because they have a good propaganda corps that goes out indoctrinating everyone to think they are? This is one of the great elements of Dune.
Leto is certainly capable of being ruthless when called for.
But I'm not dead set on the name. Ducal Court doesn't really work for me, how about some mix of: Justice Bureau, Hall of Judgement, Duke's Bench, Judge of Law, Intelligence Service, Indoctrination System.

So perhaps one stage is (a) enable capture of vehicles and thopters, (b) remove hornets, thopters and vehicles, (c) still allow suspensors. Amphibious assaults will be same as before since they already can't build scout thopters.

Possibly. Though I'd add in the small vehicle capture chance, and maybe create some melee skirmisher UUs (moderate strength, high withdraw chance) to replace the vehicles being lost (otherwise their unit tech-tree is too empty).
Its not suspensors they really need, its the suspensor transport and then Carryalls.

I think this is purely because only the lower level units get sandrider.

No, I don't think so. Try it; give the Fremen a suspensor gunship and a hardened bladesmen in a city (which also has a bunch of city defenders), and thne bring up your own suspensor gunship up to a desert tile 2 tiles away from a city. Their suspensor gunship (strength 5) will come out to attack you, but I don't think the strength 7 hardened bladesman will. Try it with a Shield Trooper (strength 12) and a hardened bladesman if you like. They won't use melee units with sandrider to attack units on desert tiles.

In order to achieve the theme of "only captured vehicles" I guess I would have to give up on this point.

Yup.

like the idea that the Atreides be broken in two although I'm not sure what you'd call the Post-Mahdi Atreides

I can't think of a good way to handle this either. What would the factional theme of this be anyway? They've won the war by that point and control the galaxy, so its not like they have any obvious military flavor.

 

[davidlallen]

give the Fremen a suspensor gunship and a hardened bladesmen in a city (which also has a bunch of city defenders), and thne bring up your own suspensor gunship up to a desert tile 2 tiles away from a city. Their suspensor gunship (strength 5) will come out to attack you, but I don't think the strength 7 hardened bladesman will.

Thanks for suggesting this experiment. I can reproduce this. I will have to take this over to the BBAI forum and ask for help again.

Is it still worthwhile to take a smaller step of disallowing Fremen to build any of the *vehicle* unitcombat units only (roller, quad, scorpion,...) while adding capture of vehicle, thopter and suspensor unitcombats? You mention we might add some other melee units to Fremen. I am not sure how these could be any different from the ones we have; do you have any specific suggestions?

 

[davidlallen]

This seems promising. Perhaps the Atreides Palace (which is already a UB) could generate more EP than the regular palace. The tech which allows building spies also allows building the courthouse, which also gives EP. So perhaps they should also have a courthouse UB which gives more EP.

BTW, this could be the first example where a 9x9 grid could be useful. I would want to playtest this Atreides concept against spy specialist civs (Ordos, BT) and separately against non-spy civs. And when I implement Ixian vehicle bonuses plus Fremen vehicle capture, that may be a second example. We would need to first discuss which promotions are lost or carried over when a vehicle is captured. Some Ixian promotions would be caused by the actual gear, which is captured, rather than the people inside the vehicle, who are presumably killed.

 

[Ahriman]

Is it still worthwhile to take a smaller step of disallowing Fremen to build any of the *vehicle* unitcombat units only (roller, quad, scorpion,...) while adding capture of vehicle, thopter and suspensor unitcombats?

This sounds sensible to me as an intermediate step.

You mention we might add some other melee units to Fremen. I am not sure how these could be any different from the ones we have; do you have any specific suggestions?

I would give them a kindof "skirmisher" role. So, for example, instead of a light scorpion (strength 16, 2 moves, 10% withdraw chance, no defensive bonuses, ), they could have a "Fremen Raider", melee unit, 2 moves, sandrider, strength ~12, 30% withdraw chance.
So they're inferior overall, but have a different unit function; they're worth attacking with first to weaken an enemy stack and have a reasonable chance of escaping.

I would want to playtest this Atreides concept against spy specialist civs (Ordos, BT) and separately against non-spy civs. And when I implement Ixian vehicle bonuses plus Fremen vehicle capture, that may be a second example

I agree.

I would argue:
a) This is something nice about the "higher EP income-as-espionage resistance" method, in that the resistance would be countered in some sense by higher EP income for Ordos and BG. [I've suggested an early game UB for BGs "Missionaria Protectiva" at Faith tech that gives +4EPs.]
b) Mechanized promotion could also give immunity to capture, like FFH Loyalty. Or the Ixian walker units could be immune to capture.

The vehicle capture is mostly there for flavor.

 

[davidlallen]

We could have Ducal Guard UU replacements with a small national limit (4?) for several units.

Unfortunately a UU cannot have a separate national limit; the limit is defined by the unit type, and by definition a UU and its base unit have the same unit type. Although this would require an sdk change, it may be an easy one: what do you think about a national limit on promotions? For example, a Ducal Guard promotion which gives say +25% combat, but a given player can only have four units with the promotion at a time. If the promotion has a prereq of say Combat II, then only experienced units would qualify for it anyway. I think we had discussed the concept of limited number promotions for the proposed Ginaz line also; we could use it in both places.

Bump, just to make sure it is not overlooked. This plus the spy resistance may be enough to make the Atreides "unique enough".

 

[Ahriman]

Bump, just to make sure it is not overlooked.

Thanks, I'd missed this.

The most obvious solution is not to make them UU replacement units in the formal sense. We don't actually *want* them to be UUs in that sense. The idea would be, you can build 4x Ducal Guard 1 AND as many normal Maula Gaurdsmen as you like.
So, just make them entirely new units, but at the same tech as and with stats "based on" the unit they are "replacing". Eg: Ducal Guard 1 = Maula guardsmen but with base strength 6, and 20% higher base hammer cost. Ducal Guard 2 = Heavy trooper with base strength 12, and 20% higher base hammer cost. Etc.

what do you think about a national limit on promotions?

It could also work, but it would be messier, and I think not quite as flavorful. Actually having a separate unit makes it easier to find that unit in the stack, keep track of it, and make it feel more distinct. Another Maula Guardsmen with slightly higher strength is kinda boring - its basically equivalent to a unit with a few more Xp and a couple of Combat promotions - whereas a separate Ducal Guard unit (with separate art and a higher base strength) would feel more special.

If you did do it with the promotion, could you make the promotion swap the underling unit art? Like how you can change art with the sandrider promotion?
So, any unit with the Ducal Guard promotion looks like some kind of uber-Hoplite dude (or whatever), rather than the normal base unit?

Either way, I think.

This plus the spy resistance may be enough to make the Atreides "unique enough".

Along with the improved air units and the sonic tank, which I think can all still be there. Yeah, that'd work. The theme is kinda dilute, but maybe thats ok.

 

[VlaDeatHell]

I like the the ducal guard idea, having some great guardsmen will definitely help on the defence... A little stronger though, with a posibility of each one upgrading to the next tier, maybe free of charge? And I think Ahriman is right, they should not replace the current units, just add them as unique to the Atreides only.

About my complain about the diplomacy not fitting I actually meant that every house CURRENTLY on Arakis hates them... Not the Landsard in general. So I still hold onto my thought of not fitting the current setting.
Atreides not being able to spy sounds ridiculous to me, they ARE a great house after all... Remember that perky mentat? Espionage bonus IMO will not do the trick of adding unique abilities to them, as currently the Ordos bonus does not work for me (in my own opinion, to clarify).

Dunno if denying the Fremen of vehicles will be a good idea, that sounds like a terrible balance problem. If you really aim in Dune-lore-credibility (I know that is not the correct expression but I cannot currently find a better one), actually their biggest weapon were the worms themselves which should be IMBA and that IMO ain't the best thing to do One annoying thing about them, great people does not have suspensor traver and does not get the sandrider promotion which came out really bad in my latest game, could not use my great prophet to build the Shai'Hulud holy shrine in my far polar city. I think actually all GP should start with the suspensor travel as the infiltrator currently do, it ain't big deal but I think it will help.

Some feedback on the BTl, plague is awful I mean, it looks really nice for them as a bonus but isn't it wiser to make the plague active either for turns or make it curable in a city that have hospital or something like that?
Currently, here what usually happens when you start a war with the BTl (or at least how I proceed) :
I tend to almost always outtech them since they usually cannot trade with anyone due to their initial religion (another thing to point at those "diplomacy unbelievers", *wink* Slvynnd ). So:
I get a large stack, possibly 1 great leader artillery unit (3 X City Attack, leader withdrawal and leadership bonuses), 1 great leader healer (some melee or guard unit), and the rest stack +city attack melee and artillery, couple of guardsmen and maybe 1-2 suspensor/topther units each. Bomb defences, artillery goes first, etc., you all know the drill. So... then after I kill the horde of troops in the city I attack, I get what? A couple of nerfed down veteran units that became ... useless is a little harsh. Dunno, just doesn't seem right to have them forsaken for the whole game after that... Not to mention this puts you whole war against the Tleilaxu at halt. I know this is the point actually, but for the whole game? A little extreme.

Again, want to point out of the World Wonder limit currently at 9 and the National one at 4 ... Maybe remove the WW one and reduce the NW to at least 3? Currently you are still able to make the mega production/research/money city with concentrating the NW in one but it denies you the ability early on when you have only your capital fully "hammer" oriented to build wonders in time and the AI steals them, even if you outeched them for the particular wonder. Which ain't that bad at all, adds some more challenge to the fight but is it suppose to work like this?

In my current game I aim for the Terraforming victory again so you will have some feedback on how that went in about a day. Though it feels lonely, Arakis Paradise - only me and freaky Leto II that almost made me cry when he found Imperial, Landsard, stole my Oracle in front of my nose and built a hell lot of wonders just before I finished them. That bastard But I can't think of a way to balance this, maybe make more civs Arakis neutral, although it doesn't sound logical to me. In the current setting when you usually end up worse than BTl diplomatically speaking.

Like the idea of Fremen not being able to convert to most religions. Maybe go further on that? Like most Landsard houses not being able to convert to Shai'Hulud or Quizarate? That will separate "the teams" further, adding IMO more flavor.

One last thing, tried the "Mediterranean" mod and saw the hero units there. Sounds like something to consider in the later stages of development of the mod. Who doesn't want Aidaho on the field, or say uber-spy Scital (not sure of the correct spelling on that in English, the BTl assasin from Dune Messiah)? Just an idea...

Anyway, keep up the good work...
*switching tabs to teach those nasty Tleilaxu a lesson of Fremen gratitude*

 

[keldath]

hi, thanks for the interesting feed,

One last thing, tried the "Mediterranean" mod and saw the hero units there. Sounds like something to consider in the later stages of development of the mod. Who doesn't want Aidaho on the field, or say uber-spy Scital (not sure of the correct spelling on that in English, the BTl assasin from Dune Messiah)? Just an idea...

we had many discussions about this idea, in the future versions im sure there will be a hero unit ( i hope just like in the great history of the three kingdoms mod).


*****

i have a question -
david -did you fixed the mountain problem that allowed units that are defined in the xml not to go on mountains, to be able to pass through mountains/mesa anyway?

 

[davidlallen]

Actually having a separate unit makes it easier to find that unit in the stack, keep track of it, and make it feel more distinct. Another Maula Guardsmen with slightly higher strength is kinda boring - its basically equivalent to a unit with a few more Xp and a couple of Combat promotions - whereas a separate Ducal Guard unit (with separate art and a higher base strength) would feel more special.

I don't think having four UU along this line adds much, but I agree having a unique name and unit art (eventually) is better. So how about:

Ducal Guard: "replaces" Master Guardsman, national unit limit 4, cost 70 instead of 60, strength 6 instead of 5, starts with City Garrison I.

Ducal Rocketeer: "replaces" missile trooper, national unit limit 4, cost 100 instead of 90, strength 10 instead of 8, starts with Antiaircraft I.