1421

[ohcrapitsnico]

Alright, let's compare the size of the "Treasure Ships" and 15th century Portuguese caravels.

So Chinese junks were larger, more sophisticated and more seaworthy than any European ships. Given the Chinese navigational knowhow, a voyage to the Americas is a possibility, but not a certainty.

Anyway, I think we're forgetting Zheng He's real significance. His voyages pretty much secured Chinese dominance of the Indian Ocean trade route east of India, even after the arrival of the Spanish and Portuguese. His voyages were also a factor in the large scale Chinese immigration to South East Asia from the 14th century onwards.

True. Regardless much of his actions were undone by growing isolationism and conservatism which had Asia and the Middle east in its death grip.Are you sure the Chinese dominated trade in the seas east of India, I may be wrong?

 

[Tee Kay]

True. Regardless much of his actions were undone by growing isolationism and conservatism which had Asia and the Middle east in its death grip.Are you sure the Chinese dominated trade in the seas east of India, I may be wrong?

Ming China was never really totally isolated (hell, even Japan allowed traders to settle on their soil. It was only a small island but still...). Chinese junks trade (legally or illegally) with the rest of South East Asia including Spanish Philippines, and Chinese immigrations continued over the period of so-called isolation. This continued in the Qing Dynasty, which is even more open to foreign trade than the Ming (it's good profit, after all, opium notwithstanding). Same story goes for the rest of Asia and the Middle East. Burma, Siam, Safavid Persia, Ottomans, Vijayanagara and Mughal Empire all thrived on trade. (would the Ottomans send a massive coalition fleet to "liberate" Diu if they're isolationist and don't care for trade?)

 

[innonimatu]

Alright, let's compare the size of the "Treasure Ships" and 15th century Portuguese caravels.

So Chinese junks were larger, more sophisticated and more seaworthy than any European ships. Given the Chinese navigational knowhow, a voyage to the Americas is a possibility, but not a certainty.

More seaworthy? I absolutely refuse to believe that. Is there any proof of it?
If chinese contemporary sources give ship lengths of over 400 feet for some of Zheng He's ships then we can know, for sure, that they lie, either in the reach of the voyages of the size of the ships. As those sources are the single support of this whole "Treasure Fleet" myth, the whole thing is shaky to say the least.

It would be impossible to keep such large wooden ships seaworthy over any long voyage, and impossible also to repair them adequately without a convenient shipyard - things which would not be available far from their home bases.
In all of (accurately) recorded history no wooden ships that large were reliably sailed. Some very large ships may have been used on the Mediterranean in roman times, but that was a relatively quiet sea, with many sheltered harbors and navigated only when good weather allowed.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

Ming China was never really totally isolated (hell, even Japan allowed traders to settle on their soil. It was only a small island but still...). Chinese junks trade (legally or illegally) with the rest of South East Asia including Spanish Philippines, and Chinese immigrations continued over the period of so-called isolation. This continued in the Qing Dynasty, which is even more open to foreign trade than the Ming (it's good profit, after all, opium notwithstanding). Same story goes for the rest of Asia and the Middle East. Burma, Siam, Safavid Persia, Ottomans, Vijayanagara and Mughal Empire all thrived on trade. (would the Ottomans send a massive coalition fleet to "liberate" Diu if they're isolationist and don't care for trade?)

I do know that the Ottomans ultimately failed at Diu due to their lack of interest in the area and focus in the Balkans. Most of the Middle East's economy went under when Europe bypassed them and went straight to Asia/america. Asian nations were more isolationist and the middle east was more conservative. Just look at Asia/Middle East's magnificent technological progress in the 14th century onwards.

 

[Tee Kay]

More seaworthy? I absolutely refuse to believe that. Is there any proof of it?
If chinese contemporary sources give ship lengths of over 400 feet for some of Zheng He's ships then we can know, for sure, that they lie, either in the reach of the voyages of the size of the ships. As those sources are the single support of this whole "Treasure Fleet" myth, the whole thing is shaky to say the least.

Sigh. The problems with history (all history, not just Chinese) is that you can never know if you can trust the sources. Now, Chinese sources are generally correct, and by the way they have found archaeological evidence to support that the sources (a giant drydock and a giant rudderpost were found in Nanjing for example. A wreck of a large, well-built ocean-going ship was also found near Quanzhou, dating from the late 1200s).

It would be impossible to keep such large wooden ships seaworthy over any long voyage, and impossible also to repair them adequately without a convenient shipyard - things which would not be available far from their home bases.

Maintainance would've been no problem for them while they were in the Indian Ocean. Once they've sailed further they could've set up a repair station, assuming the people on board did have the technological know-how. If you read the book, you would've noticed a section on the Chinese building docks in North America.

In all of (accurately) recorded history no wooden ships that large were reliably sailed. Some very large ships may have been used on the Mediterranean in roman times, but that was a relatively quiet sea, with many sheltered harbors and navigated only when good weather allowed.

Chinese ship designs were quite different from European ship designs. Watertight compartments and crossbeams strengthening the ship, for example, were main features of medieval Chinese ships.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

Meh well the Chinese loved to exagerate, the truth wasn't as important as the romanticised message, generally. For me I can believe the ships were massive but maybe not on the scale as they say, I think its sheer size would just be an enormous handicap and logistical issue.

 

[Tee Kay]

I do know that the Ottomans ultimately failed at Diu due to their lack of interest in the area and focus in the Balkans. Most of the Middle East's economy went under when Europe bypassed them and went straight to Asia/america. Asian nations were more isolationist and the middle east was more conservative. Just look at Asia/Middle East's magnificent technological progress in the 14th century onwards.

Trade between the Ottomans and India remained strong even after the Ottomans (largely, but not entirely) retreated to concentrate in the Balkans. Europe did not "bypass" the Middle East entirely, since they still have to go through the Indian Ocean, which is largely controlled by Asian states and merchants. European trade in the Indian Ocean (at least the period before the late 1700s, when Europeans began to industrialise) depended largely on cooperation and compromise with local rulers. Asian states were indeed more isolationist by European standards of the time, but still they were not entirely isolated from the rest of the world. Japan, often given as the prime example of the Xenophobic Asian Despotic State, remained opened to foreign trade. Trade links with China remained, and limited trade with western countries were allowed. Scientific knowledge from the West still reached Japan during this time, and this helped Japan to industrialise relatively quickly after isolationism was officially abolished.

 

[Dezzilisk]

Chinese descendants in South island of NZ?

What bull.

The south island was almost unpolulated before the europeans came and enslaved northern maori (bringing them to the south to build roads).

Impossible that they could be descended from Chinese, or that the family lines of Maori could even be traced that far back as they had no written language.

 

[innonimatu]

Sigh. The problems with history (all history, not just Chinese) is that you can never know if you can trust the sources. Now, Chinese sources are generally correct, and by the way they have found archaeological evidence to support that the sources (a giant drydock and a giant rudderpost were found in Nanjing for example. A wreck of a large, well-built ocean-going ship was also found near Quanzhou, dating from the late 1200s).

You mean the Houzhu Ship, excavated in the Quanzhou bay in 1974? It was 24m long and 9m wide, with an estimated displacement of 200 tons. Large, but well within what was reasonably expected, and on pair with the largest ships from the same period in the Mediterranean. Certainly nowhere near the fabulous dimensions so often repeated for the "treasure ships" (120m in lenght).

Unless chinese 15th century shipwrights had some wonderful insight that was later entirely lost and never occurred to people in other places (including China), right up to the 21th century, those dimensions are impossible to achieve with wooden ships.
They may have had a giant drydock, even build giant ships. That wouldn't prove they had actually sailed them in the open ocean. What would prove that would be either preserved shipwrecks of those giant ships (none that came even close was ever found), of independent historical records of visits by such ships from the other Indian Ocean ports. Again, nothing is mentioned, and the "treasure fleets" would have been difficult to ignore - had they existed!

Maintainance would've been no problem for them while they were in the Indian Ocean. Once they've sailed further they could've set up a repair station, assuming the people on board did have the technological know-how. If you read the book, you would've noticed a section on the Chinese building docks in North America.

Chinese ship designs were quite different from European ship designs. Watertight compartments and crossbeams strengthening the ship, for example, were main features of medieval Chinese ships.

Well then, if such designs would work mr. Menzies only has to build himself a functional treasure ship replica to prove he's not a complete liar in every aspect of his book. Then he'd be a liar only in the more far-fetched "they settled America" type parts... settlements complete with gigantic docks, and everything else necessary to maintain a fleet of giant ships. Sure!

 

[Generaltsao]

Scientific knowledge from the West still reached Japan during this time, and this helped Japan to industrialise relatively quickly after isolationism was officially abolished.

The Japanese industrialized so quickly because of prior technology? Are you sure it wasn't to do with massive government reform and foreign advisors?

 

[North King]

More seaworthy? I absolutely refuse to believe that. Is there any proof of it?

No proof, but multiple contemporary accounts, plus the fact that they definitely did sail all the way to East Africa. This is not disputed by the majority of historians.

If chinese contemporary sources give ship lengths of over 400 feet for some of Zheng He's ships then we can know, for sure, that they lie, either in the reach of the voyages of the size of the ships. As those sources are the single support of this whole "Treasure Fleet" myth, the whole thing is shaky to say the least.

No. The largest ships probably maxed out at 400 feet long. Some will give the figure of 444, but their unit of measurement was not exactly a foot; it was somewhat under. However, we can say for certain that they were several hundred footers, and that their fleets definitely did exist. The treasure fleet is not a myth; it's unfortunate that this bull about them sailing all over the place obscures the actual history (this is one of the main reasons I hate 1421 so much).

If you want a researched, sensical account of the actual treasure fleets, I'd highly recommend When China Ruled the Seas by Louise Levathes.

 

[luiz]

15th Century Chinese ships more seaworthy than the portuguese caravels?

Let's keep it real, guys. This is about as historically (and physically!) accurate as the "aliens built the pyramids" theory.

 

[Tee Kay]

No proof, but multiple contemporary accounts, plus the fact that they definitely did sail all the way to East Africa. This is not disputed by the majority of historians.

No. The largest ships probably maxed out at 400 feet long. Some will give the figure of 444, but their unit of measurement was not exactly a foot; it was somewhat under. However, we can say for certain that they were several hundred footers, and that their fleets definitely did exist. The treasure fleet is not a myth; it's unfortunate that this bull about them sailing all over the place obscures the actual history (this is one of the main reasons I hate 1421 so much).

If you want a researched, sensical account of the actual treasure fleets, I'd highly recommend When China Ruled the Seas by Louise Levathes.

Thank you, North King.

The Japanese industrialized so quickly because of prior technology? Are you sure it wasn't to do with massive government reform and foreign advisors?

Japan would not have been able to industrailise or reform so quickly had it not been for existing Japanese institutions (banking establishments, industries, manufacturing, laws and regulations, urbanisation, etc) established during the Edo period and European technology acquired through (admittedly very limited) foreign trade.

 

[luiz]

The (little) reserach I did on the subject completely confirms what innonimatu (and non-revisionist history, and common sense) was saying: the cited dimmensions are a complete fraud. Not only because there is absolutely no record of a wooden ship that long, but because the suggested dimmension in the length-to-beam ratio of 2.47 would be completely unsailable in the ocean. Plus the claimed dimmensions are inconsistent with the reported displacement of 1500 tons.

All in all, while it seems clear that a Treasure Fleet did exist, many of it's traits were widely exaggerated as it so often happens with that sort of endevour. But just because it's China, a bunch of people will believe in such non-realistic stuff.

 

[Evie]

And just because it's ships getting somewhere before Portugal, every last Portuguessse and Brazilian on the face of the planet will exaggerate the other way...

The dimensions of the ships are likely indeed exaggerated, though. From what I see the "more reasonable" estimates seems to look at 59-84 meters (but that's per wiki, which has been known to be wrong), that appear more reasonable. Large ships, certainly, but not so large as to be utterly unrealistic ; there is at least one known European 60-meter ship of the 15th century (again per Wiki).

Seaworthiness...more seaworthy than the average contemporary european ship is not entirely unthinkable (after all, 1400 is the tail end of medieval shipbuilding in Europe : we're not talking about galleons, let alone frigates and man-o-war here). The caravels are likely another story entirely, though.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

Japan would not have been able to industrailise or reform so quickly had it not been for existing Japanese institutions (banking establishments, industries, manufacturing, laws and regulations, urbanisation, etc) established during the Edo period and European technology acquired through (admittedly very limited) foreign trade.

Nah, Japan was still very isolated. Afew ships a year into Dejima? Thats open to you? Japan barely saw any technical innovations between 1600 and 1854. Japan did not industrialize so fast not because it was already pretty advanced and industrialized by that time but because of the pure drive and discipline of the Japanese society to accomplish what it wants working in one concentrated effort not millions of people going every which way thinking for themselves. The Japanese society is quite different from any other. I cite post WWII Japan as an example.

Al;so look at china. China was open to all it just closed its mind of sorts for lack of a better term. Its taken China so long to "modernize" because everybody goes every which way not looking for the end goal but for every single individuals drive for self-interest.

Oh and I'm not anti-Chinese and Japan obsessed if you think so. I'm Chinese, I just see whats really going on and am not held back by nationalism of any kind.

 

[Tee Kay]

Nah, Japan was still very isolated. Afew ships a year into Dejima? Thats open to you? Japan barely saw any technical innovations between 1600 and 1854. Japan did not industrialize so fast not because it was already pretty advanced and industrialized by that time but because of the pure drive and discipline of the Japanese society to accomplish what it wants working in one concentrated effort not millions of people going every which way thinking for themselves. The Japanese society is quite different from any other. I cite post WWII Japan as an example.

I am not dismissing the importance of Japanese efforts in the Meiji era or the post-WWII era. No, I'm just saying that it was made possible partly because of the institutions already existing in the Edo Period. Many companies were founded in the Edo period (eg Mitsui, Mitsubishi, Sumitomo, etc) including manufacturing firms, shipping firms and banking institutions. And besides,

During the period, Japan progressively studied Western sciences and techniques (called rangaku, literally "Dutch studies") through the information and books received through the Dutch traders in Dejima. The main areas that were studied included geography, medicine, natural sciences, astronomy, art, languages, physical sciences such as the study of electrical phenomena, and mechanical sciences as exemplified by the development of Japanese clockwatches, or wadokei, inspired by Western techniques.

All in all, while it seems clear that a Treasure Fleet did exist, many of it's traits were widely exaggerated as it so often happens with that sort of endevour. But just because it's China, a bunch of people will believe in such non-realistic stuff.

People once believed that the Great Pyramid took twenty years and 100,000 slaves to build (when Ancient Egypt did not even have 100,000 slaves at that time). Herodotus said so, but now we believe that he was exaggerating.

Thing is, you can never fully trust historical sources because they're almost certainly biased or inaccurate in some way. On the Treasure Fleet, Chinese records are supplemented by contemporary medieval accounts and archaeological evidences.

 

[luiz]

People once believed that the Great Pyramid took twenty years and 100,000 slaves to build (when Ancient Egypt did not even have 100,000 slaves at that time). Herodotus said so, but now we believe that he was exaggerating.

Thing is, you can never fully trust historical sources because they're almost certainly biased or inaccurate in some way. On the Treasure Fleet, Chinese records are supplemented by contemporary medieval accounts and archaeological evidences.

There is no archeological evidence of a ship as long as claimed and, what is more, the description goes against hydrodinamics.

Your last paragraph makes a very good point, you can't always trust the records as they might exaggerate or be biased, and this is precisely the case with the Treasure Fleet, or with chinese naval expeditions as a whole. In this case clear exaggerations did take place, as is obvious by the impossible claimed dimensions.

As I mentioned in another thread, China achieved enough on reality so there is no need to make chinese achievements up, as is fashionable these days. If things continue to go this way in 20 years people will be debating in internet forums if chinese voyagers didn't make it to the moon centuries before the US

To sum it up, China did not reach the Americas in the 15th Century, their ships were not 440 feet long, and they were not at all more seaworthy than a caravel, which represented a tremendous breakthrough in ship building.

 

[Tee Kay]

There is no archeological evidence of a ship as long as claimed and, what is more, the description goes against hydrodinamics.

Your last paragraph makes a very good point, you can't always trust the records as they might exaggerate or be biased, and this is precisely the case with the Treasure Fleet, or with chinese naval expeditions as a whole. In this case clear exaggerations did take place, as is obvious by the impossible claimed dimensions.

As I mentioned in another thread, China achieved enough on reality so there is no need to make chinese achievements up, as is fashionable these days. If things continue to go this way in 20 years people will be debating in internet forums if chinese voyagers didn't make it to the moon centuries before the US

To sum it up, China did not reach the Americas in the 15th Century, their ships were not 440 feet long, and they were not at all more seaworthy than a caravel, which represented a tremendous breakthrough in ship building.

"The Chinese junk: 12th century - 15th century

The design of the Chinese junk (a western word from the Malayan djong, meaning 'boat') is perfected during the later part of the Song dynasty, when the loss of the northern empire increases the importance of overseas trade. A merchant fleet, and a navy to defend it, become essential. The resulting junk is an ideal craft for the South China seas.

The region suffers violent typhoons, so a strong hull is essential. The Chinese achieve this by means of the bulkhead - a partition across the interior of the hull, and sometimes along its length as well. Bulkheads make the hull rigid and also provide watertight compartments - invaluable when a leak at sea needs repair.

The Chinese junk has other pioneering features later copied elsewhere. Traditionally built without a keel (allowing access to shallow waters), the junk is ill-equipped to sail a straight course until an important innovation of the Song period - the addition of the sternpost rudder. This is a large heavy board which can be lowered on a sternpost when the junk moves into deep water. Coming below the bottom of the boat, and capable of hinging on its post, it fulfils the function both of keel and rudder.

Until this time, throughout the world, the conventional method of steering a boat has been by means of a long oar projecting from the stern.

Another important innovation on the Chinese junk is multiple masts. Marco Polo describes sea-going junks as having four masts, with a further two which can be raised when required. Each mast has square-rigged sails. They concertina on themselves, when reefed, in the manner of a Venetian blind.

These ships are huge. Marco Polo claims that sixty private cabins for merchants can be built on the deck, and archaeological evidence suggests that by the 15th century a large merchant junk is about 450 feet from the bow to the high poop in the stern - six times the length of the contemporary Portuguese caravel. In 1973 the discovery of a junk of the 13th-century confirms much of what Marco Polo reports from the time of Kublai Khan."

From: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?groupid=107&HistoryID=aa14.

To sum up, although the dimensions of the Treasure Ship may be exaggerated (although they are still very large compared to European caravels), and they probably did not make it as far as the Americas, Chinese ships designs are still ahead of European by centuries.

 

[Evie]

I would not necessarily say "by centuries".

Yes, it took the European a few centuries to get in the business of mass-producing (relatively) big boats, but when they did...there is no doubt that those ships were FAR superior to the Chinese junks.

Heck, even a caravel exhibit fairly advanced shipbuilding. Yes, it's small, but it's probably the more seaworthy ship by a very fair margin.