Master Kodama
Nitpicker
Try Songhai. I'm pretty sure they were around in 1512. Zimbabwe's another to consider.Aeon221 said:
1512-1701 (An Odessy!)
- Thread starter Aeon221
- Start date
pinktilapia
Homeless
Good idea for the mod! When done with my own, soon I hope, I could really try to help. I was a great amateur of the paper version of Europa Universalis.
Two comments:
For Southeast Asia, in the time period considered, and seeing how fast Indonesia sultanates were colonized by the Dutch, you really need to have a continental power instead. The two main ones were Ayyuthaya/Siam and much later Annam. I would take the first as is remained non-colonized and a power in the region until now. Plus Vietnam/Annam was mostly Chinese influenced or even controlled.
For the map, since you use a world map, I see a lot of problems coming out concerning Europe which will be tiny with Civ having just a few cities and frequent wars which can often result in the complete conquest of a faction. Did you consider making a special map with a specially enlarged Europe and a much more reduced world?
Two comments:
For Southeast Asia, in the time period considered, and seeing how fast Indonesia sultanates were colonized by the Dutch, you really need to have a continental power instead. The two main ones were Ayyuthaya/Siam and much later Annam. I would take the first as is remained non-colonized and a power in the region until now. Plus Vietnam/Annam was mostly Chinese influenced or even controlled.
For the map, since you use a world map, I see a lot of problems coming out concerning Europe which will be tiny with Civ having just a few cities and frequent wars which can often result in the complete conquest of a faction. Did you consider making a special map with a specially enlarged Europe and a much more reduced world?
Olorin0222
Maia
Another problem with Spain and Austria: How are you going to deal with the period of Charles V, when Spain, Austria and the Holy Roman Empire were ruled by Charles? You're right that combining Spain and Austria would probably make them too strong, but how will the HRE come into play?
I agree that Sub-Saharan Africa was too disorganized to be a civ for this game. The best thing to do is to make it infested with aggressive barbarians, that way they do pose a raiding threat to lightly defended colonies.
I can't help you with a South East Asian civ. Not my strong area in history...
I think you should close off the Bosphorus in Turkey. This will make Istanbul a more strategic city, stregthen the Turks, giving them a better chance at invading Hungary and Austria, which they did almost successfully in the 1520's I believe.
I have some doubts about the Swiss Confederation...I got this from Encarta Encyclopedia:
"In the 15th century the Swiss Confederation was strong enough to undertake a vigorous program of expansion. The Swiss captured Aargau in 1415, and from 1451 to 1466 the confederation won a series of new allies: Sankt Gallen, in 1451; Appenzell, in 1452; Schaffhausen and Stein am Rhein, in 1459; Rottweil, in 1463; and Mulhouse, in 1466. However, these areas were not granted full rights. Swiss armies defeated the armies of Charles the Bold, duke of Burgundy, in 1476, and of Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I in 1499. By the Treaty of Basel on September 22, 1499, Maximilian was compelled to abandon his plans to reassert control in Switzerland and recognize the unofficial independence of the Swiss. Soon afterward the confederation expanded again and by 1513 included the cantons of Fribourg, Solothurn, Basel, Schaffhausen, and Appenzell. This created a federal union of 13 cantons that continued unchanged until the French Revolution.
In the early 16th century, Swiss troops, fighting with the French, were able to annex the Italian districts and towns that later formed the canton of Ticino. Swiss fighters later sided with Italy in a campaign to drive the French from the Po Valley. The campaign initially succeeded, but French forces returned to the Po and in 1515 dealt the Swiss a crushing defeat at Maringano in northern Italy. The defeat proved to the Swiss that they could not hope to defeat their larger neighbors in battle. Soon afterward, the Swiss renounced their expansionist aims, proclaimed a neutral foreign policy, and turned to developing the countrys rich potential as a crossroads of trade routes. Since then, Switzerlands policy of neutrality has been strictly observed."
Maybe the Swiss portion of the Alps could be made into impassable mountains
This would stop troop movement and the building of cities in Switzerland.
You could do the same thing in Sub-Sahara Africa: make some impassable terrain, blocking the interior, and still let the map look all pretty
I agree that Sub-Saharan Africa was too disorganized to be a civ for this game. The best thing to do is to make it infested with aggressive barbarians, that way they do pose a raiding threat to lightly defended colonies.
I can't help you with a South East Asian civ. Not my strong area in history...
I think you should close off the Bosphorus in Turkey. This will make Istanbul a more strategic city, stregthen the Turks, giving them a better chance at invading Hungary and Austria, which they did almost successfully in the 1520's I believe.
I have some doubts about the Swiss Confederation...I got this from Encarta Encyclopedia:
"In the 15th century the Swiss Confederation was strong enough to undertake a vigorous program of expansion. The Swiss captured Aargau in 1415, and from 1451 to 1466 the confederation won a series of new allies: Sankt Gallen, in 1451; Appenzell, in 1452; Schaffhausen and Stein am Rhein, in 1459; Rottweil, in 1463; and Mulhouse, in 1466. However, these areas were not granted full rights. Swiss armies defeated the armies of Charles the Bold, duke of Burgundy, in 1476, and of Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I in 1499. By the Treaty of Basel on September 22, 1499, Maximilian was compelled to abandon his plans to reassert control in Switzerland and recognize the unofficial independence of the Swiss. Soon afterward the confederation expanded again and by 1513 included the cantons of Fribourg, Solothurn, Basel, Schaffhausen, and Appenzell. This created a federal union of 13 cantons that continued unchanged until the French Revolution.
In the early 16th century, Swiss troops, fighting with the French, were able to annex the Italian districts and towns that later formed the canton of Ticino. Swiss fighters later sided with Italy in a campaign to drive the French from the Po Valley. The campaign initially succeeded, but French forces returned to the Po and in 1515 dealt the Swiss a crushing defeat at Maringano in northern Italy. The defeat proved to the Swiss that they could not hope to defeat their larger neighbors in battle. Soon afterward, the Swiss renounced their expansionist aims, proclaimed a neutral foreign policy, and turned to developing the countrys rich potential as a crossroads of trade routes. Since then, Switzerlands policy of neutrality has been strictly observed."
Maybe the Swiss portion of the Alps could be made into impassable mountains
This would stop troop movement and the building of cities in Switzerland.You could do the same thing in Sub-Sahara Africa: make some impassable terrain, blocking the interior, and still let the map look all pretty
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
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In no particular order!
@Pink: Dont worry, its Rhye's map! Europe is MASSIVE compared to normal, but still looks good to the eyes... its realllly weird how that works, like an optical illusion...
Siam sounds pretty good as a choice; I will check them out!
@GRM: I am of two minds about the Black Sea. The Dardanelles are crucial to its being held, and the Spartans managed to close it to the Athenians with ease... as did the Brits to the Russians for the R-J war. But its an open channel...
There will be an Act of Union tech for Wales that England will get to research... I do not know if I will actually put anything in it, but it WILL be there ;p
As to slaves, thats gonna be easier than you think. Its going to work like this. There will be resources, slaves, that only the Portugese can see in africa (to encourage their settlement of the place, since they were so hardcore about it). These resources will allow the construction of improvements that will generate slave workers (as well as a bit of cash). The hard part will be convincing them to send them to their capital so as to be sold.
Or I will make it a small wonder that requires the capital (not accurate I know) that autoproduces a worker every turn or two, available only to those who have managed to get their hands on another resource (possibly one only visible to the Dutch and Portugese, so as to promote competition between them). They will be able to trade these workers at will, and still be able to have improvements requiring the resource (most likely slaves, although it could be some spice, like cinnamon or pepper) that will produce treasure.
Thanks for asking, cuz I just thought of that ;p
@Olorin: Thanks! I do want the Swiss in, simply because they were around so long and so much happens in their territory, but if I cannot find a way to really make them fun I will ditch them for a Sub-Saharan or a HRE civ.
As to the HRE... thats a tough one. I had intended to represent it more accurately by having a goodly number of seperate civs all in one alliancer... although that is not in itself perfect... but I do not know how to give the Austrians/Spanish the power to manipulate them. I would like to give them a permanent ROP in the area... but oh well. I will definitely leave Austria and Spain in their own alliance regardless, and call it the Hapsburg Alliance. The HRE should be seperate, but willing to listen (they will have same culture group and whatever other happy-love-one-another attributes I can think of... until its time for the Reformation and a little bit of wurmfood!). I chose mostly Protestant states for the HRE so that it will be ok for war to break out. Its too bad we dont have the same kind of ability to scale while maintaining acceptable loading times that EU2 does... but then, Civ has its own little quirks that more than make up for it ;p
@MK: Will check them both out! Not sure if they will be included (SORRY! I hate this stupid civ limit), but they will be backups if one of the currents doesnt pan out in my head.
OOOK! I am gonna go to bed tonight, and in the morning do some lovely school. Then I will get to work on setting up the civs.
@Pink: Dont worry, its Rhye's map! Europe is MASSIVE compared to normal, but still looks good to the eyes... its realllly weird how that works, like an optical illusion...
Siam sounds pretty good as a choice; I will check them out!
@GRM: I am of two minds about the Black Sea. The Dardanelles are crucial to its being held, and the Spartans managed to close it to the Athenians with ease... as did the Brits to the Russians for the R-J war. But its an open channel...
There will be an Act of Union tech for Wales that England will get to research... I do not know if I will actually put anything in it, but it WILL be there ;p
As to slaves, thats gonna be easier than you think. Its going to work like this. There will be resources, slaves, that only the Portugese can see in africa (to encourage their settlement of the place, since they were so hardcore about it). These resources will allow the construction of improvements that will generate slave workers (as well as a bit of cash). The hard part will be convincing them to send them to their capital so as to be sold.
Or I will make it a small wonder that requires the capital (not accurate I know) that autoproduces a worker every turn or two, available only to those who have managed to get their hands on another resource (possibly one only visible to the Dutch and Portugese, so as to promote competition between them). They will be able to trade these workers at will, and still be able to have improvements requiring the resource (most likely slaves, although it could be some spice, like cinnamon or pepper) that will produce treasure.
Thanks for asking, cuz I just thought of that ;p
@Olorin: Thanks! I do want the Swiss in, simply because they were around so long and so much happens in their territory, but if I cannot find a way to really make them fun I will ditch them for a Sub-Saharan or a HRE civ.
As to the HRE... thats a tough one. I had intended to represent it more accurately by having a goodly number of seperate civs all in one alliancer... although that is not in itself perfect... but I do not know how to give the Austrians/Spanish the power to manipulate them. I would like to give them a permanent ROP in the area... but oh well. I will definitely leave Austria and Spain in their own alliance regardless, and call it the Hapsburg Alliance. The HRE should be seperate, but willing to listen (they will have same culture group and whatever other happy-love-one-another attributes I can think of... until its time for the Reformation and a little bit of wurmfood!). I chose mostly Protestant states for the HRE so that it will be ok for war to break out. Its too bad we dont have the same kind of ability to scale while maintaining acceptable loading times that EU2 does... but then, Civ has its own little quirks that more than make up for it ;p
@MK: Will check them both out! Not sure if they will be included (SORRY! I hate this stupid civ limit), but they will be backups if one of the currents doesnt pan out in my head.
OOOK! I am gonna go to bed tonight, and in the morning do some lovely school. Then I will get to work on setting up the civs.
ThomAnder
Deity
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- Mar 26, 2004
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- 2,237
Hmm I'm curious to know if the player can play from any part of the world or just mainly europe. If there were to be action in Asia, i think either the Koreans or the Manchus should be added as they were the "stars" in the 2 main events in East Asia during that period. (Referring to Japan's failed Korean invasion and Fall of Ming Dynasty). Another thing i want to know is what'll happen to central asia... in rhye's map it's mainly desert+mountain, which means the only interaction possible between east and west is through the sea route. Naturally this means that only the west can reach the east but not vice versa. In EU2 they had a path similar to the silk road, which was controlled by remnant mongol khanates. Maybe we can use this too?
Olorin0222
Maia
I like your idea of the HRE being just an alliance of mostly German nations. It will make it easier for the Thirty Years War and the Reformation, and it will also make it fit better what Voltaire said of it: it isn't Holy, it isn't Roman, and it isn't an Empire.
If you can make Switzerland work, more power to you
It would be cool to have a Swiss nation, but hard to implement historically. If you know how though, go for it.
Question: Eventually, are you going to have two forms of the same government, e.g. Constitutional Monarchy, one which is Protestant and one which is Catholic? And make it so that civs like Spain and Austria hate nations with a Protestant Constitutional Monarchy?
If you can make Switzerland work, more power to you
It would be cool to have a Swiss nation, but hard to implement historically. If you know how though, go for it.Question: Eventually, are you going to have two forms of the same government, e.g. Constitutional Monarchy, one which is Protestant and one which is Catholic? And make it so that civs like Spain and Austria hate nations with a Protestant Constitutional Monarchy?
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
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I really intend for the governments to each be unique to the various civs. They will only be available in the various seperate trees (of which each civ will only see their part) that will do its part to define them. For instance: Stuart Restoration Tech will give you the Restoration government, with its less authortarian, more representative feel.
I must admit to not knowing Spain as well as I know England (Naval history is pretty focused on the British...)
As to East-West relations, it will be an absolute terror to go East. I intend to totally block it off to everyone but the Russians and the Golden Horde. There will be one pass, and it will have a Golden Khanate city on it, so that only the holder will be capable of crossing into Siberia. Deserts will be impassable to most units... kind of like mountains in RoC/RoX (pet idea of mine since the beginning of RoC ;p).
The goal is to force that same dependence on the ocean that you can see in the real world.
As to the Manchus, I had totally forgotten about them... Swiss=>Manchu is what will probably happen... stupid civ limit.
I am keeping the rapid government transition (vis-a-vis religious) that Rhye included in his mod (I was a proponent of it there, so I see no reason to remove it ;p), but instead of using most of the religious system (I am working with a whole independent tech tree for each civ... no reason to have it ;p) I will simply give each civ three traits. That will solve most of the problems with trait balance, and will also reflect the incredibly religious tone of the time.
Anyway, Hamlet to read and civs to design. At least I am finished carving that katana ;p
I have also decided to create new city lists for all the civs. Since they are creating colonies for the most part, it seems illogical to give them city names like Toulon for their colonies.
I must admit to not knowing Spain as well as I know England (Naval history is pretty focused on the British...)
As to East-West relations, it will be an absolute terror to go East. I intend to totally block it off to everyone but the Russians and the Golden Horde. There will be one pass, and it will have a Golden Khanate city on it, so that only the holder will be capable of crossing into Siberia. Deserts will be impassable to most units... kind of like mountains in RoC/RoX (pet idea of mine since the beginning of RoC ;p).
The goal is to force that same dependence on the ocean that you can see in the real world.
As to the Manchus, I had totally forgotten about them... Swiss=>Manchu is what will probably happen... stupid civ limit.
I am keeping the rapid government transition (vis-a-vis religious) that Rhye included in his mod (I was a proponent of it there, so I see no reason to remove it ;p), but instead of using most of the religious system (I am working with a whole independent tech tree for each civ... no reason to have it ;p) I will simply give each civ three traits. That will solve most of the problems with trait balance, and will also reflect the incredibly religious tone of the time.
Anyway, Hamlet to read and civs to design. At least I am finished carving that katana ;p
I have also decided to create new city lists for all the civs. Since they are creating colonies for the most part, it seems illogical to give them city names like Toulon for their colonies.
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
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Black Sea will be open. if Denmark is to be cut off from Norway by the Sund, there is no reason the Turk cannot survive being cut off from the Balkans by the Hellespont. Besides, Genoa had major interests there, and it makes no sense not allowing them (or other civs) to be able to sail there because of Constantinople. It requires ships to cross, but it allows ships through without a canal... so thats how that will be solved (unless I really cannot stand it...). I may resolve it by getting some new kind of animation for the airbase and allowing a rebase only to Constantinople from it. Might work for Denmark and the Sund as well, if I can figure out what to do...
Or I could use the hacked editor and teleport... have to check that out though...
Or I could use the hacked editor and teleport... have to check that out though...
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
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Trait Listing Time!
Decided not to include the following traits: Scientific and Expansionistic
I feel that Sci does not describe any of the civs in this era. There are some major developments at the beginning of the period (most notably in firearms and moveable type, the printing press itself being an ancient invention), but the rest is dedicated wholly to improving what was already in existence. Many of the other advances are of a religious, rather than a political nature.
Since there are a great number of militaristic civs (and a much smaller possible mix of traits than normally) it will look like there is very little mixture. Thats life, and this was a brutally violent period (30 Yrs War anyone?).
All the HRE civs (and the Swiss) have the same traits, as they are meant to represent the same group: Zee Germans ;p
I have not decided how to work the Manchus. I want there to be some pretty violent combat with the Chinese (totally logical), but I am not sure if it would be better to simply make it an advance (Manchu Conquest, new govt, some new units, etc) and add another Eastern Civ
All civs have the religious trait.
The list is a tentative listing at best, so feel free to inform me if I made a stupid decision ;p
Decided not to include the following traits: Scientific and Expansionistic
I feel that Sci does not describe any of the civs in this era. There are some major developments at the beginning of the period (most notably in firearms and moveable type, the printing press itself being an ancient invention), but the rest is dedicated wholly to improving what was already in existence. Many of the other advances are of a religious, rather than a political nature.
Since there are a great number of militaristic civs (and a much smaller possible mix of traits than normally) it will look like there is very little mixture. Thats life, and this was a brutally violent period (30 Yrs War anyone?).
All the HRE civs (and the Swiss) have the same traits, as they are meant to represent the same group: Zee Germans ;p
I have not decided how to work the Manchus. I want there to be some pretty violent combat with the Chinese (totally logical), but I am not sure if it would be better to simply make it an advance (Manchu Conquest, new govt, some new units, etc) and add another Eastern Civ
All civs have the religious trait.
The list is a tentative listing at best, so feel free to inform me if I made a stupid decision ;p
Olorin0222
Maia
Just had a thought:
Will you add Hungary as a nation? Sulieman did not conquer them till 1526. They were weak and disorganized, but should they be admitted as a buffer between the Ottomans and Austria (and the rest of Central Europe)?
In case you want a map for the Ottomans Empire, here's a good one
Ottoman Empire Expansion
Here's a map of Hungary pre-1526
Pre-1526 Hungary
Just thought I'd toss another civ up for debate.
Will you add Hungary as a nation? Sulieman did not conquer them till 1526. They were weak and disorganized, but should they be admitted as a buffer between the Ottomans and Austria (and the rest of Central Europe)?
In case you want a map for the Ottomans Empire, here's a good one
Ottoman Empire Expansion
Here's a map of Hungary pre-1526
Pre-1526 Hungary
Just thought I'd toss another civ up for debate.
Mistfit
Deity
Here is the information on the leaders of the European set you've listed. I've had problems with some of them but this should give you a good start. Now all you have to do is pick which one you will use to count as your leader
It's quite long so I put it in the spoiler tag to keep from cluttering your thread
I hope this helps
It's quite long so I put it in the spoiler tag to keep from cluttering your thread
I hope this helps
Spoiler :
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
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I would like to add Hungary, but (just as I am adding in the Dutch well beforetime) there seems little reason to put the Hungarians in, especially since they disappear soon after the scenario starts.. I am also leaving out (sadly) the Bohemians. I will recognize them somehow though.
Olorin0222
Maia
@Aeon: That's cool. Will you just leave the physical land of Hungary open for colonization, or will you give it to Austria or the Ottomans??
@Mistfit: I found a list of Venetian Doges on Wikipedia. Very few of them ruled for very long, though, and none of them are very notable, it appears. (I'll leave it to you to paste it all here, as I do not know how to do that nifty spoiler trick)
For Switzerland, all I am finding is that there was no head of power, but rather each canton was a separate entity. The were unified in the Swiss Confederation, but with no central government in charge of everything. All I have found is a couple of Swiss Mercenary commanders during the 30 years War, Jörg Jenatsch and Johann Rudolf Wettstein.
Brandenburg was ruled by the Hohenzollern's, and I found the the list of the Electors of Brandenburg Again, I'll let you edit it in above.
Class is going to start in a couple of minutes, so I better go. I'll try and find info on Bavaria and Saxony later this afternoon.
@Mistfit: I found a list of Venetian Doges on Wikipedia. Very few of them ruled for very long, though, and none of them are very notable, it appears. (I'll leave it to you to paste it all here, as I do not know how to do that nifty spoiler trick)
For Switzerland, all I am finding is that there was no head of power, but rather each canton was a separate entity. The were unified in the Swiss Confederation, but with no central government in charge of everything. All I have found is a couple of Swiss Mercenary commanders during the 30 years War, Jörg Jenatsch and Johann Rudolf Wettstein.
Brandenburg was ruled by the Hohenzollern's, and I found the the list of the Electors of Brandenburg Again, I'll let you edit it in above.
Class is going to start in a couple of minutes, so I better go. I'll try and find info on Bavaria and Saxony later this afternoon.
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
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Most of the ones you cannot find things for (like the Swiss) I have had the same problem. I intend to use Calvin for them, or Zwingli (sp?) or some such other good chappy ;p
I had intended to look them up in my history books (mostly to give me a view of just how important they were) but this will work way better!
Again, thanks a ton!
I had intended to look them up in my history books (mostly to give me a view of just how important they were) but this will work way better!
Again, thanks a ton!
For Africa...Maybe the Kongo..They traded with the Portuguese and even Spanish and Dutch alittle... had a modern army, and even had their own Bishop, their time frame is almost exactly that of the scenario too...(1400s-1700)..Plus they have a nice leaderhead by Rita Poon. I would say them or Ethiopia for Africa, since they are the only ones to interact with Europe.
