biohazard72
Prince
First off: props to Martin Alvito for his very informative thread. Since France strategy is different in some significant aspects, I decided to create my own thread.
Martin Alvito's <200 Turn Babylon Thread
So, 200 turns with France is indeed possible! AFAIK, this is the quickest non-Babylon game to date. Took some luck though, and very good execution. I'd post a screenshot, but when I pasted it into paint, it was an image of the man in the intro video around where I stopped it. Weird. EDIT: Added the final save. My Unis and Public Schools have been sold at this point.
How the game played out (scroll down if you want strategic quick-tips):
Started on a 5 civ continent, lots of flat terrain. Nearest neighbours were Russia and Egypt. I planned a horse rush with 3 cities, building 3 horses and buying one. I steal a Worker from a Maritime CS (of which there were many) which improves a 2 horse tile - I settle on another with my third city. Russia starts talking smack, but then declares war on another civ. I see there units guarding their border to me, and seriously consider attacking them first, but decide to wipe Egypt the wonder whore (Oracle and Stonehenge). I keep two cities: the capital, and a size 2 city which I annexed and used to make 2 Settlers, one which replaced the size 2 city after I razed it. Thebes was my largest city (size 6) when Libraries were available, so I decide to annex it, buy a Library, and stock it while working some mined hills to make a Colosseum and Courthouse. Thebes produces my first 2 GSs (out of 7). I credit this decision as my best one this game - those scientists were in there helping my tech rate until the point where I made parts.
In the meantime, Russia declares war on another civilization. I begin scouting them out after I wiped Egypt. To my surprise, I eat a DOW from Russia (their third war!) and almost lose two Horsemen. But they insta-heal, wipe his 3 Swordsmen nearby, and quickly capture Russia's 2 cities, with the help of 2 more purchased Horsemen (now 6 total). I keep Russia's capital, as a puppet.
On the domestic front, I'm settling my implied territory aggressively. I benefit from having lots of Silver - good tiles for commerce, when you'll be mining hills anyway. My first city-state is a maritime, to fuel growth to size 2 and allow my cities to work production tiles. One is definitely all that's necessary until Colosseums begin finishing. I'll mention ist here: my build order EVERYWHERE was Colosseum - Library - University. In a few cities, I made a single Settler after Libraries for my second wave of expansion.
I decided on Liberty-Citizenship-Meritocracy to allow a few more cities early, as I decide this is France's biggest advantage: more cities early = more developed cities later = more raw science (important, because bulbing alone won't do the trick with France). Previous experience puts my 6th policy at sometime soon after Steam Power with only city culture, so I grab two cultural city-states as soon as I can to try to cram in 3 policies before I lose France's culture bonus with Steam Power. This works better than I expected: I grab my 7th policy 3 turns after Steam Power. The policies were Freedom, Civil Society, Democracy, and Order.
Japan was conquered by Mongolia while I finished up Russia. I declare on Mongolia hiding behind a river, expecting his horses to cross and be massacred by mine, but this tactic fails - he has only a couple Horsemen, and he didn't take the bait. I buy a militaristic city-state to buy some time, and it ends up giving me a Catapult, Horseman, and Chariot Archer. Useful stuff. Don't see why people hate on them. I see that most of Genghis Khan's army is attacking my cultural city-state (which it never defeated!), far away from Japan's old territory, so I give up my plan, cross the river where safe, and go for Japan.
I conquer those cities quickly - I keep 3 cities - Japan's coastal capital and two adjacent cities (puppets). I keep them mainly as a base of operations for the war effort, and for the luxuries they provide me (Gold, Cotton). Eventually they get a trade route via Harbors. I feint for Mongolia's capital and he bites, giving me his largest 3 cities which I promptly burn. I do have to give him every luxury I own though, 2 of which were single-copy. I had the happiness to spare at that point (it put me barely in unhappy) and knew I'd get them back in 10 turns when I resumed the war.
Colosseums and Libraries finish up, and I decide to settle 5 more cities in addition to my starting 11, rather than go immediately for Universities. They don't take long, so I think it worked out well. I settle in a pattern that hooks up Moscow to my core cities. After the settlers finish, Universities begin going up. Note: one of my second-wave cities was a Spaceship part city!
I grab Astronomy with a GS to open up the Renaissance, but can't afford a Caravel for about 6 turns. I grab Freedom and Civil Society, begin to run one scientist nearly everywhere, and begin to go vertical. Over the next 30 turns, I grab my 2nd and 3rd maritime CSs.
I redeclare on Mongolia, but the bugger builds the great wall! I lose most of my Horsemen and almost lose a puppet city. However, the Catapult gifted to me from the city state upgrades to a Trebuchet with Shock II, and it massacres enemy units. I take vanilla peace.
My caravel finds America, and circles the continent - I lose many turns doing so, as he is the only civ on it! I sign a Research Agreement immediately. I eventually find Songhai and Persia and do the same.
After Universities go up in my core, I build Circuses where available, and Workshops everywhere else. I haven't yet planned which cities will build Spaceship Parts. When I grab Banking (not beelined), I find I have a slight tech lead, so I build FP in Thebes, my best production city at that time. It took 25-30 turns or so.
I redeclare on Mongolia, anticipating an attack on my now very well defended city. It never comes. I wipe some small cities he recently settled with Knights, then give him peace and grab a Research Agreement (which I doubted I'd finish).
At around mid-Renaissance, I identify my 6 production cities for Spaceship parts. They tend not to be the cities working the hills at the time - they tend to be the cities NEXT to these cities, which haven't produced as many hammers thus far but are larger. In these, I build Windmills and Factories after the Workshops (and Forges, where applicable). The ones which work the hills produce Public Schools after Workshops, then Markets and Banks. if the Public School wouldn't go up within 20 turns of my anticipated end date, I just go Market-Bank. I want all of my non-spaceship cities to have Markets and Banks to stock while I push for space.
Just a mention: putting a turn of research into something DOES work 100% for Research Agreement abuse, as long as the turn of research you put in isn't the turn before the RA finishes. You can't have bottlenecks in the tech tree either. I end up with something like 9 RAs completed IIRC, the last one coming in around turn 190. The one with Mongolia finished (I swore he would war me).
I build the Statue of Liberty in Japan's former capital as I had a production city to spare (SoL and Apollo Program overlap a bit). The buff to unemployed citizens helps Markets and Banks go up in areas without production tiles, and the improved engineers helped in my Spaceship cities. I highly recommend it if feasible.
I began the Apollo Program in my capital as soon as I was in reasonable slingshot range. I should have fired a bit earlier rather than wait for a RA to fill in a tech, as Apollo Program is a huge limiting factor on finish time. My first happiness golden age (fueled by FP) triggers as it builds.
I begin to feel the difference between France and Babylon at this point - as Public Schools finish and are stocked, my science pushes higher and higher - to over 900 at the peak. The raw tech power helps make up for far less GSs.
My production cities were completely set around 15 turns before Apollo Program was due to finish. Because I wiped/whittled so many civs, lots of wonders were available. I grab the Louvre and Brandenberg Gate for GAs. I find myself ending the game with 15 turns of GA left, leading me to believe I should have fired my GGs a bit earlier - I waited for my happiness GA to do so. BTW, Thebes, Moscow, and Japan's capital were all chosen as production cities, mainly because of their high populations.
Apollo Program finishes in the high 180's of turns. I decide to make the Boosters in the cities furthest from my capital, to account for travel time. I STILL don't have Aluminum at this point, and nobody else is far enough along to see it. I'm frustrated, but then see - Mongolia JUST settled a new city on top of Aluminum. I buy a Mech Infantry and take the city the next turn.
My cities are all producing wealth, gold focus, with merchant specialists now, in a golden age. My income shoots up to 400 GPT, which I trade for roughly 8900 gold. I buy a Spaceship Factory in every production city (this is why you need the Markets and Banks - to take out a massive loan at the end of the game).
At this point I had 5 techs left. I use a GS on one I just started working on, then switch to Metallurgy to force the RA to grab the tech before Globalization. The next turn, a GS finishes and I use what's left (3 GSs! It timed perfectly!) to finish the remaining 3 techs. I assign the expensive parts to the closer-to-capital cities. It looked like things would finish up at turn 202.
Time passes... one of my cities somehow makes up a turn (without changing any tiles. WTH?). More time passes... it's turn 199. Boosters are in. Two more parts finish next turn, the last in 2 turns. I check the city... 109.2 production. 891.8 made to that point. I do the math - that adds up PERFECTLY. It says 2 turns, but I cross my fingers that it finishes and doesn't round weirdly.
Turn 200 comes. Everything is done! I move all the parts to my capital and win on turn 200.
My biggest regret is skipping the Hagia Sophia. I should have skipped the Courthouse in Thebes and built it there as soon as it was available. It would have taken about 30 turns, and I probably would have gotten it.
Important Points:
- Colosseum - Library - University. This is the basic build order everywhere.
- Workshops after Universities in good production cities (except where Circus is available). After this, go for Public Schools=>Markets=>Banks in non-part cities, and Windmills/Factories/Forges in part cities. Skip Workshops in low production cities, using unemployed citizens to get Markets and Banks up. Fill Markets and Banks as Spaceship parts are built, trading GPT for a huge lump sum which buys Spaceship Factories.
- Liberty-Citizenship-Meritocracy-Freedom-Civil Society-Democracy is necessary. Order helped but was probably not. Aggressively pursue cultural CSs after the first maritime CS to grab Democracy ASAP.
- settle aggressively. 10 or so in first wave is good, 5 as a second wave. Keep non-capital cities as puppets only if they provide an additional luxury or for military tactics. Raze and resettle where possible.
- roads then production tiles for improvements. I built like 5 trade posts, LOL.
- Reach Renaissance with Astronomy, then aggressively seek out other civs for selling of goods and RAs.
- Horseman rush works well. Aggressive expansion + horse rush probably comes out behind in settling in the very near term, but turns out roughly even, maybe even better, because it wars better and grabs more gold from pillaging cities. I'd like to hear both sides to this argument.
- best wonders: Forbidden Palace, Statue of Liberty. Ignore the former if you don't think you can get it, and the latter if it delays Apollo Program at all. But both are very strong and helpful. The Louvre helps too if possible, for the 2 artists can be used directly for GAs. Hagia Sophia is a risky wonder, but probably worth a scientist or two, so I bet it's worth building.
And there you have it: 200 turn Deity Spaceship with France. It's not sub-200, but it's close
.
Martin Alvito's <200 Turn Babylon Thread
So, 200 turns with France is indeed possible! AFAIK, this is the quickest non-Babylon game to date. Took some luck though, and very good execution. I'd post a screenshot, but when I pasted it into paint, it was an image of the man in the intro video around where I stopped it. Weird. EDIT: Added the final save. My Unis and Public Schools have been sold at this point.
How the game played out (scroll down if you want strategic quick-tips):
Started on a 5 civ continent, lots of flat terrain. Nearest neighbours were Russia and Egypt. I planned a horse rush with 3 cities, building 3 horses and buying one. I steal a Worker from a Maritime CS (of which there were many) which improves a 2 horse tile - I settle on another with my third city. Russia starts talking smack, but then declares war on another civ. I see there units guarding their border to me, and seriously consider attacking them first, but decide to wipe Egypt the wonder whore (Oracle and Stonehenge). I keep two cities: the capital, and a size 2 city which I annexed and used to make 2 Settlers, one which replaced the size 2 city after I razed it. Thebes was my largest city (size 6) when Libraries were available, so I decide to annex it, buy a Library, and stock it while working some mined hills to make a Colosseum and Courthouse. Thebes produces my first 2 GSs (out of 7). I credit this decision as my best one this game - those scientists were in there helping my tech rate until the point where I made parts.
In the meantime, Russia declares war on another civilization. I begin scouting them out after I wiped Egypt. To my surprise, I eat a DOW from Russia (their third war!) and almost lose two Horsemen. But they insta-heal, wipe his 3 Swordsmen nearby, and quickly capture Russia's 2 cities, with the help of 2 more purchased Horsemen (now 6 total). I keep Russia's capital, as a puppet.
On the domestic front, I'm settling my implied territory aggressively. I benefit from having lots of Silver - good tiles for commerce, when you'll be mining hills anyway. My first city-state is a maritime, to fuel growth to size 2 and allow my cities to work production tiles. One is definitely all that's necessary until Colosseums begin finishing. I'll mention ist here: my build order EVERYWHERE was Colosseum - Library - University. In a few cities, I made a single Settler after Libraries for my second wave of expansion.
I decided on Liberty-Citizenship-Meritocracy to allow a few more cities early, as I decide this is France's biggest advantage: more cities early = more developed cities later = more raw science (important, because bulbing alone won't do the trick with France). Previous experience puts my 6th policy at sometime soon after Steam Power with only city culture, so I grab two cultural city-states as soon as I can to try to cram in 3 policies before I lose France's culture bonus with Steam Power. This works better than I expected: I grab my 7th policy 3 turns after Steam Power. The policies were Freedom, Civil Society, Democracy, and Order.
Japan was conquered by Mongolia while I finished up Russia. I declare on Mongolia hiding behind a river, expecting his horses to cross and be massacred by mine, but this tactic fails - he has only a couple Horsemen, and he didn't take the bait. I buy a militaristic city-state to buy some time, and it ends up giving me a Catapult, Horseman, and Chariot Archer. Useful stuff. Don't see why people hate on them. I see that most of Genghis Khan's army is attacking my cultural city-state (which it never defeated!), far away from Japan's old territory, so I give up my plan, cross the river where safe, and go for Japan.
I conquer those cities quickly - I keep 3 cities - Japan's coastal capital and two adjacent cities (puppets). I keep them mainly as a base of operations for the war effort, and for the luxuries they provide me (Gold, Cotton). Eventually they get a trade route via Harbors. I feint for Mongolia's capital and he bites, giving me his largest 3 cities which I promptly burn. I do have to give him every luxury I own though, 2 of which were single-copy. I had the happiness to spare at that point (it put me barely in unhappy) and knew I'd get them back in 10 turns when I resumed the war.
Colosseums and Libraries finish up, and I decide to settle 5 more cities in addition to my starting 11, rather than go immediately for Universities. They don't take long, so I think it worked out well. I settle in a pattern that hooks up Moscow to my core cities. After the settlers finish, Universities begin going up. Note: one of my second-wave cities was a Spaceship part city!
I grab Astronomy with a GS to open up the Renaissance, but can't afford a Caravel for about 6 turns. I grab Freedom and Civil Society, begin to run one scientist nearly everywhere, and begin to go vertical. Over the next 30 turns, I grab my 2nd and 3rd maritime CSs.
I redeclare on Mongolia, but the bugger builds the great wall! I lose most of my Horsemen and almost lose a puppet city. However, the Catapult gifted to me from the city state upgrades to a Trebuchet with Shock II, and it massacres enemy units. I take vanilla peace.
My caravel finds America, and circles the continent - I lose many turns doing so, as he is the only civ on it! I sign a Research Agreement immediately. I eventually find Songhai and Persia and do the same.
After Universities go up in my core, I build Circuses where available, and Workshops everywhere else. I haven't yet planned which cities will build Spaceship Parts. When I grab Banking (not beelined), I find I have a slight tech lead, so I build FP in Thebes, my best production city at that time. It took 25-30 turns or so.
I redeclare on Mongolia, anticipating an attack on my now very well defended city. It never comes. I wipe some small cities he recently settled with Knights, then give him peace and grab a Research Agreement (which I doubted I'd finish).
At around mid-Renaissance, I identify my 6 production cities for Spaceship parts. They tend not to be the cities working the hills at the time - they tend to be the cities NEXT to these cities, which haven't produced as many hammers thus far but are larger. In these, I build Windmills and Factories after the Workshops (and Forges, where applicable). The ones which work the hills produce Public Schools after Workshops, then Markets and Banks. if the Public School wouldn't go up within 20 turns of my anticipated end date, I just go Market-Bank. I want all of my non-spaceship cities to have Markets and Banks to stock while I push for space.
Just a mention: putting a turn of research into something DOES work 100% for Research Agreement abuse, as long as the turn of research you put in isn't the turn before the RA finishes. You can't have bottlenecks in the tech tree either. I end up with something like 9 RAs completed IIRC, the last one coming in around turn 190. The one with Mongolia finished (I swore he would war me).
I build the Statue of Liberty in Japan's former capital as I had a production city to spare (SoL and Apollo Program overlap a bit). The buff to unemployed citizens helps Markets and Banks go up in areas without production tiles, and the improved engineers helped in my Spaceship cities. I highly recommend it if feasible.
I began the Apollo Program in my capital as soon as I was in reasonable slingshot range. I should have fired a bit earlier rather than wait for a RA to fill in a tech, as Apollo Program is a huge limiting factor on finish time. My first happiness golden age (fueled by FP) triggers as it builds.
I begin to feel the difference between France and Babylon at this point - as Public Schools finish and are stocked, my science pushes higher and higher - to over 900 at the peak. The raw tech power helps make up for far less GSs.
My production cities were completely set around 15 turns before Apollo Program was due to finish. Because I wiped/whittled so many civs, lots of wonders were available. I grab the Louvre and Brandenberg Gate for GAs. I find myself ending the game with 15 turns of GA left, leading me to believe I should have fired my GGs a bit earlier - I waited for my happiness GA to do so. BTW, Thebes, Moscow, and Japan's capital were all chosen as production cities, mainly because of their high populations.
Apollo Program finishes in the high 180's of turns. I decide to make the Boosters in the cities furthest from my capital, to account for travel time. I STILL don't have Aluminum at this point, and nobody else is far enough along to see it. I'm frustrated, but then see - Mongolia JUST settled a new city on top of Aluminum. I buy a Mech Infantry and take the city the next turn.
My cities are all producing wealth, gold focus, with merchant specialists now, in a golden age. My income shoots up to 400 GPT, which I trade for roughly 8900 gold. I buy a Spaceship Factory in every production city (this is why you need the Markets and Banks - to take out a massive loan at the end of the game).
At this point I had 5 techs left. I use a GS on one I just started working on, then switch to Metallurgy to force the RA to grab the tech before Globalization. The next turn, a GS finishes and I use what's left (3 GSs! It timed perfectly!) to finish the remaining 3 techs. I assign the expensive parts to the closer-to-capital cities. It looked like things would finish up at turn 202.
Time passes... one of my cities somehow makes up a turn (without changing any tiles. WTH?). More time passes... it's turn 199. Boosters are in. Two more parts finish next turn, the last in 2 turns. I check the city... 109.2 production. 891.8 made to that point. I do the math - that adds up PERFECTLY. It says 2 turns, but I cross my fingers that it finishes and doesn't round weirdly.
Turn 200 comes. Everything is done! I move all the parts to my capital and win on turn 200.
My biggest regret is skipping the Hagia Sophia. I should have skipped the Courthouse in Thebes and built it there as soon as it was available. It would have taken about 30 turns, and I probably would have gotten it.
Important Points:
- Colosseum - Library - University. This is the basic build order everywhere.
- Workshops after Universities in good production cities (except where Circus is available). After this, go for Public Schools=>Markets=>Banks in non-part cities, and Windmills/Factories/Forges in part cities. Skip Workshops in low production cities, using unemployed citizens to get Markets and Banks up. Fill Markets and Banks as Spaceship parts are built, trading GPT for a huge lump sum which buys Spaceship Factories.
- Liberty-Citizenship-Meritocracy-Freedom-Civil Society-Democracy is necessary. Order helped but was probably not. Aggressively pursue cultural CSs after the first maritime CS to grab Democracy ASAP.
- settle aggressively. 10 or so in first wave is good, 5 as a second wave. Keep non-capital cities as puppets only if they provide an additional luxury or for military tactics. Raze and resettle where possible.
- roads then production tiles for improvements. I built like 5 trade posts, LOL.
- Reach Renaissance with Astronomy, then aggressively seek out other civs for selling of goods and RAs.
- Horseman rush works well. Aggressive expansion + horse rush probably comes out behind in settling in the very near term, but turns out roughly even, maybe even better, because it wars better and grabs more gold from pillaging cities. I'd like to hear both sides to this argument.
- best wonders: Forbidden Palace, Statue of Liberty. Ignore the former if you don't think you can get it, and the latter if it delays Apollo Program at all. But both are very strong and helpful. The Louvre helps too if possible, for the 2 artists can be used directly for GAs. Hagia Sophia is a risky wonder, but probably worth a scientist or two, so I bet it's worth building.
And there you have it: 200 turn Deity Spaceship with France. It's not sub-200, but it's close
.
Still it seems like very easy to grab a turn of research in bottom part of tree and be sure your free tech beelines biology ...
