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2K Greg's recent posts on the 2K forums

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by V. Soma, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Are you purposely trying to completely miss the point?

    The majority of civ fans that may have had some sort of disappointment and talked about it on forums probably don't appreciate having 2K Greg (an official rep of the game) call them rude (twice).

    I had a similar argument with Dale, in which Dale made me realize that if 2K goes under, Firaxis will also (or at least it would have some negative impacts), since 2K owns Firaxis (or w/e the correct terminology is). So we should all hope 2K does stay successful (even if we (I) don't care for the company).
     
  2. EmpireOfCats

    EmpireOfCats Death to Giant Robots

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    It's more a question of who would get the rights to Civ if 2K goes under and takes Firaxis with them. Though Civ Rev and now Civ V have certainly hurt the franchise's reputation, the "brand" remains strong. There are scenarios where companies with more patience, deeper pockets, and a stronger commitment to high-quality games like Blizzard or Valve could take over the Civ series, and I don't think I would mind one bit.
     
  3. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    Nope, still don't care whether 2K is successful or not.

    I agree, which is why it's lucky Greg didn't do that. He said he has to deal with occasional rudeness. That is in fact saying that most people aren't rude, while at the same time acknowledging that there is some rudeness going on as well, which accurately describes the situation I think. It might not be nice to hear for one of the people being rude though. ;)
     
  4. 2K Greg

    2K Greg <span style="font-weight:bold; text-decoration: un

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    I've been lurking around here occasionally, as I do many communities. Part of my job is to report on what the community is saying, and that doesn't mean just our forums! As someone mentioned in this thread, these forums are fairly organized and the moderators do a good job; it's definitely a great place to get feedback.

    I had seen this thread before but I didn't really think it warranted a reply until this last time I checked in. For the most part my time is better spent reading feedback on the game than reading feedback about how well people think I'm doing my job :lol:

    I also wanted to let you guys know why I haven't been posting here. :)
     
  5. 2K Elizabeth

    2K Elizabeth <span style="font-weight:bold; text-decoration: un

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    I agree with this! I think everyone has to deal with rudeness in their lives, and if you have a job that has any forward-facing aspect, you may encounter rudeness at some point. That doesn't mean that everyone is rude - in fact, I think the majority of our fans are completely rad.
     
  6. zonk

    zonk Prince

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    Since you are monitoring this thread, at least -- I'm hoping this question catches your eye....

    Was there a conscious decision in Civ V development to focus on the warfare aspects? If the answer is no - absolutely not, was there any post-mortem discussion about perhaps that not being the aim, but the result?

    I'm not trying to flame or anything --- but I think you'd probably agree in reviewing the various threads that the people most disappointed in V are the 'peaceful builder' types. I'm not claiming I can speak for them -- but the majority of the "too many boring Next Turn" complaints are coming from those who play civilization with warfare as a fact of gameplay, rather than something we target as a play style.

    It seems, based on what I've read, that the devs "get" that the military AI badly needs work --- but that's really not going to solve the problem with V for an awful lot of us.

    We're the types who didn't really care about quecha rushes -- because we didn't use them. We're the types who DID pay attention to health and city happiness, even though one could theoretically ignore them. We're the ones that didn't necessarily exploit holes in religion -- because we never really saw it as something to exploit (in fact, we often saw it as a key diplomatic method to overcome our usually lacking military).

    In short - I guess I'd just ask if it's understood that for those of us who never really saw Panzer General (whether we liked it or not) as something that should influence Civilization, because as Sid used to say -- "Civilization is not a wargame" -- there are some real flaws here.... and not just the type of flaws that can be fixed by AI changes or rebalancees, but a lot of barren landscape for the non-warmonger.

    If it was a conscious decision, fair enough -- I guess we'll go our separate ways... but if it wasn't the intention, I just hope the team understands that a lot us builders see Civ V as a real and significant step backwards.
     
  7. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    What part of Civ5 is war focused or put differently more war focused than previous Civ?

    You sort of ask the question assuming it's true, which I'm not sure necessarily is.
     
  8. JLoZeppeli

    JLoZeppeli Prince

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    I think the answer is up to Greg, not to you.
    More builders think the same, and have explained the reason for so long, so don't complain even a question to a 2k community manager, please.
     
  9. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Well, well, well. It's 2K Greg. :D

    About that nagging question that I had been waiting oh....several months for an answer for, you can forget about it now.

    ciV has been a tremendous disappointment for myself and many fans and I have no interest in playing it any further. That alleviates the need for me to know about Steam regional lockouts for ciV. I won't have to worry about buying expansion packs or DLC in a foreign country now. :) I also don't have to worry about my hard drive crashing and ciV being deleted either.

    Anyway, I'd appreciate if you could convey a message for me to the 2K Games higher up mucky mucks. I, myself and many other long time fans of the Civilization series wish to inform you that we find ciV completely unacceptable in any way, shape or form. We do not appreciate your company forcing Firaxis to put out a half baked product with a large number of bugs, half implemented features and many obvious flaws in order to satisfy your year end financial reports. Simply put, you (2K Games) are going to have to do much, much better to regain the trust of the Civ community.
     
  10. Bushface

    Bushface Deity

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    It's more war-focused because there is nothing else to focus on.
    Buildings ? Slow to build, and mostly provide little benefit.
    Religion ? there is none.
    Espionage ? there is none.
    Diplomacy ? Any agreements either don't last, or extend way past the agreed period. You never know the AI civs' interactions with each other except for wars.
    Trading ? Mostly, you can't. Notably, you can trade only one of your five Incense resources.
    Teching ? Get Horsemen or Chariot Archers and conquer the world without any need to climb the tech ladder any further. That is decidedly a war focus.
    Wealth ? Build cheap units and disband them to get pretty well as much as you want.
    Culture ? Why bother ?
    Civics ? I can't comment, because I've not needed to go more than a couple of steps into that swamp and then only to get rid of messages telling me that I could wallow deeper.
     
  11. Guardian_PL

    Guardian_PL Emperor

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    Yyyup, signed.
    No more praying for patches from me - haven't played Civ5 in a long time now but hey - I bought the game, so it doesn't matter what I do with it, eh? xPPP
     
  12. zonk

    zonk Prince

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    Fair enough...

    I guess I would say the globalization of what used to be city concepts - happiness, culture (for the most part). Now - I get the response "but that was boring/you could ignore it" - but for a lot of us, that's what we DID! We liked walking through each of our cities every turn and making micro-adjustments to deal with health, etc.

    When you globalize those things - we really have no reason to do that anymore - we simply buy more happiness (in any random city).

    I would further say that the elimination of many non-luxuries... The "builder" actually saw a lot of value in having pigs... and crab... and corn... and rice... because they were more things we could trade because health had value and dietary diversity mattered. This essentially makes trading solely a matter of luxury and strat resource trading -- in other words, 1/3 of the trading portion of Civilization is gone.

    The elimination of religion has wiped out broad swaths of city maintenance and diplomacy.

    The implementation of Social Policies to substitute for multiple concepts.

    In other words, the "streamlining" removed a lot of gameplay options for the player that wasn't at war.... Many of these smaller things became abstracted to the point of being "every 25-35 turn" pick lists -- irrevocable picklists.

    In short - V, it feels like for the first time in the series - took a lot of "things" one used to do in Civilization and merged them into a different implementation -- there's a lot less to do in a turn now.

    OTOH -- the military side changes... hex/1UpT - obviously, gotta be pleasing to the quecha rushers and Stackers. As is the resource limiting. As is 'embarkation' -- I'll let you in on a secret - I didn't really care for the transport tedium either, but it didn't matter because I only "did it" once or twice a game!

    In short - if you play without a lot war, there's just really not a lot to do from turn to turn. There Next Turn-Next Turn series in previous iterations, too -- but for the peaceful player, far far fewer of them.
     
  13. May Day 10

    May Day 10 Prince

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    I am completely dissatisfied with Civ V for pretty much all the reasons outlined countless times.
    I am traditionally a Civ "builder" and I do feel like there is some sort of correlation.
     
  14. mattcrwi

    mattcrwi Warlord

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    And how can you speak for the whole Civ community? :confused:
     
  15. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    You still can assign specialists for GP generation and move people around tiles, just like in Civ4. If you're talking about microing tiles works to avoid overflow of beakers or hammers, that wasn't an issue with Civ4 either. Actually If you have both social policies that reduce unhappiness of unoccupied cities and reduce unhappiness of specialists, you will see marginal gains in happiness if you switch out a specialist and have him work a tile and vice versa. depending on the city. So happiness can be microed for sure. You just have to learn it.


    That's a Civ4 only concept though. So are you implying games outside Civ4 aren't builder friendly? And Civ4 absolutely encourages war-waging above all else. AIs like the ones we've had in the last 3 games are best dealt with by sapping their productivity and diverting production through war. There was another post elsewhere where someone outlined all the benefits of war in Civ4. Also how else are you going to get all those non luxury resources if you really are a building. The voracious pace at which the AI expands pretty much means you won't get enough to trade.


    A lot of people like it gone. And IMHO, adds nothing to diplomacy, it adds imagined power and is an SMAC(human centric) feature the humans can manage 1000% better than the AI, who only vaguely understand spreading it and 'liking' whoever has the same religion as they do. So a human player can always move their SOD into positions they would never tolerate the AI doing to them, then DoW and feel like its diplomatic intrigue. I just find it assinine and boring. But everyime I play Civ4, I can't say I don't exploit it. Or i'd be stuck playing in Prince and Noble. The AIs are far too agressive if you have the wrong religion.

    Fair enough, I am not satisfied either, but nothing has satisfied me since the switch away from set governments. Civ4 Civics encouraged cookie cutter 'me too' accross all civs. At least Civ5 allows variety with no 'ultimate' path. Well I lie. Piety is probably hands down the best must have for the bonuses it gives you. But the other 7 is open to your game style and game situation.

    How often do you switch Civics in Civ5, outside of switching because you just gained access to new ones.

    A lot less spreading of religion and corporations? good riddance. I'd put it along with the food carvans of Civ2 was needless microing for the sake of microing.


    There's also fewer units to manage. Unit placement matter and you will lose units due to bad luck and 'chess' issues where you move one unit and unintentionally block another's path of retreat. But I like that kind of nail biter as opposed to the 'let me move that mech inf to cover the redlined unit' type dealie of the past.

    Again, was this even true in Civ4? You can certainly go for small compact empires in Civ5, the cultural victory encourages it. You'll have a smaller empire, and you can probably even expand as needed given AI expands much more slowly due to the happiness mechanic. In Civ4, true builders would have to be playing some OCC variant or in archipelago maps. And that's still possible in Civ5.

    Any other kind of builders aren't builders, they probably have to wage war to get land then stop and build. Also possible in this game.

    I simply fail to see the point here, outside of certain Civ4 specific features being removed.
     
  16. JudgeDeath

    JudgeDeath Warlord

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    This is true in general about the whiners. They all assume that their views on the game are gospel, and therefore do not need to be demonstrated.

    I've never seen such an unhelpful bunch of moaners in the history of computer gaming.

    But following in their spirit I have a theory. The ones that love Civ IV the most are in fact Sim (City etc) types. Civ V is more like earlier Civ games in its balance, and they don't like it.

    That doesn't detract from the numerous real problems that Civ V has (many of which are being fixed in the first real patch), but it does explain the rather irrational complaints from a vociferous minority (not on these boards, which are clearly heavily biased, currently, towards Civ IV players, but on people who are playing the game).

    Hopefully these groaners will soon realise the futility of their gripes - Civ V can never be turned into Civ IV - and leave these forums to those who just want to make Civ V better, rather than turn it into a different game.

    Moderator Action: Calling people whiners, groaners, etc...is not appropriate and will not be tolerated. Please post in a civil manner.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  17. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

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    No Zonk is legit and honest. I just want to understand his position. I understand not everyone is going to be satisfied, but the 'Civ5 is more wargame than Civ' is one thing I think is being overblown or misrepresented. Likely because people are predisposed to accuse Civ5 of being a wargame due to the new hex tile system and Panzer General connections with Jon being a fan of such games.


    But frankly, it's about as much a wargame as Civ3 and 4 were. War is beneficial and often powerful and effective above all other strategies.
     
  18. City Raider

    City Raider Warlord

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    I'd also add that, I've had requests to help an AI in a war with another civ on like turn 15 of my game. (I know there was also some thread about this or something similar). Where is the time to explore? I've had an AI issult me (eventually leading to war a few turns later) prior to turn 20. I've had the AI drop its 2nd city obscenely close to me when they are on the other side of the continent. No player in their right mind would let the AI city stand. So if you take it out, you risk warmonger status.

    You can get one AI after another asking about secrecy pacts and then their rival asks you a few turns later, eventually these dealings don't add up and someone is going to be mad at you, leading to war.

    The AI, if left alone on, can steam roll (snowball effect) its continent meaning you'd probably need a war to stop them. I've seen this on Earth Maps where I start in North America. I've had a couple games where one AI might run amok and take Asia most of Europe, Afr, etc. Certainly there has to be a way for 2-3 AIs to hold there own against each other while a Human player isn't around, so when you meet up it isn't essentially a human vs. 1 AI.

    At least with Religion or something similar you could maintain fairly peaceful relations throughout the game even if you weren't going for a diple cheese win.

    With no way of knowing how the AI truely feels about you, it drifts back to the mode of I'd rather attack the AI now, then play a peaceful game and have them backstab me later even if we are friends (or you thought they were friends).

    Its just not fun to try and play a peacful game then get dog piled at some point with little or no warning.

    There are also no consquences for war. You can raze cities and gain happiness resources to further fund the war. More cities equal more people equal more science. Agian a benefit to war.
     
  19. lschnarch

    lschnarch Emperor

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    Because he is backed up by many who share his opinion.
     
  20. SuperJay

    SuperJay Bending Space and Time

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    Hi Greg! Hi Liz! :wavey:

    Any ETA on the upcoming patch, perchance? Some of us are waiting til the fixes are shipped before playing Civ5 again.

    Thanks for stopping by, it's appreciated.
     

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