2nd Monarch Attempt

CivIVMonger · Dec 16, 2009

I know I have had my fair share of threads lately, but I really need your help. I loaded up a Mehmed game. The start was alot of grass/forest and 2 gold along with Pigs and Irrigated Corn! One of the most awesome starts I have ever had. So, I go through the normal 4000 - 3000 BC Procedure. I teched up to Monarchy at about 1500BC and ran HR. Next tech was CoL. I research BW almost first and, to top of all of the awesomeness of my start, guess what resource popped up in my fat cross.

With the copper I build about 10 Axemen and rush HC, building more just in case. I overbuilt, obtaining both of his cities and finishing the rush at before 1000BC! I go for Mathematics as I am finished with CoL just after 900BC. (2 Gold can really help you early on.) I build oracle and finish at the same time. Bulbed Civil Service! This game could not have gone much better! I really don't want to blow it so I am posting the save with screenshots from the turn + a dotmap. I really need help on this.

There is really not much to say, here. Just an incomplete dotmap...

View attachment MehMonger BC-0675 CS Sling Shot.CivBeyondSwordSave
If you would could you please look into the save. I need some advice and I can't post screenshots extensively, or the screenshots won't work all together.

What should I do at this point. I don't really know how what to do. Not that I'm in trouble, I just want to make the best game I can and I just wanted your advice. Thank you,

CivIVMonger

mjg5591 · Dec 16, 2009

Took quick look at save.

1. Revolt to Buro and slavery. Whip the Courthouses in HC land if needed.

2. Find Spain and Ottmans. If they are up north, might want to settle the little bottleneck up north and later backfill your land. Also need to get more settlers out, that gold should fund alot of expansion. You only have 3 cities, spain has 6 already, not that it matters. But need to settle more land. I am not the greatest at DOTMAP. But I would be settling north gold and gem site first and second.

3. Not that its needed asap, but you have monarchy get the wines hooked up for more happiness and trade resource.

4. Really need to explore more also. Get a few of those axeman out there.

Ghpstage · Dec 16, 2009

Bulbed Civil Service!

How the heck did you manage that before even getting your first GP? :lol:

And what kind of GP? I thought the CS GProphet gambit died with BTS :eek:

Any specific reason you haven't swapped into Slavery? It would make a lot of snse in most games, but being Expansive for cheap Granaries and Workers, and Organised for cheap Lighthouses with Oracled CoL for cheap Courthouses I strongly advise you use it!

I would redo your dotmap, but I don't have time at the moment. There are 2 1 tile off the coast, specialities seem a little confused, and one of your cities can't even be founded as its too close to another....
Alphabet may be worth a look at so you can start trading with the AIs, it'll also give a discount on Currency.

Istanbul really should be churning out Settlers now, I probably wouldn't have even bothered with the grasenary yet, especially as its already running into unhealthiness. It also should have had a Library long before CS was gotten....

vicawoo · Dec 17, 2009

General advice, more cities, block north, move surplus garrisons out of the city to scout and fogbust. Fogbusting is much cheaper than having to take out a new city. Whip unimproved tiles to workers/settlers.

Courthouses will save less than 2 gold at this point. You need more cities, whip a worker, hook up the corn.

More specific advice, the ottomans have the earliest happiness building, I believe. They can easily afford to skip hereditary rule. You should have slavery sooner, though.

Berkobob · Dec 17, 2009

pump settlers out of istanbul, chop workers out of cuzco & tiwakanu, get a dozen cities up and running ASAP. I assume you have sufficient axes for fogbusting as you go along, if not, add a few more.

Grab sites with green so you can get cottages up sooner.

KingMorgan · Dec 17, 2009

This is how I continued;

to 25AD:

Spoiler :

View attachment MehMonger AD-0025.CivBeyondSwordSave

CivMcNut · Dec 17, 2009

I feel compelled to write as I play Mehemed all the time, and my current difficulty level is monarch. It looks like there's all sorts of room to peacefully expand. Take advantage of cheap graneries and courthouses that you get with this leader. I enjoy it when I can find a military operation to take when Janissaries come out. They are pretty tough. Hammams are pretty useful, you can have a city with a green and red face and the building can fix them both. This building also comes pretty early. I've really enjoyed playing Mehemed all the time, his traits tend to cover up weaknesses in my game. His organized trait makes the money management better. The expansive trait makes workers easy to come by and cities harder to pollute.

Go for your commerce cities on the dotmap first.

CivIVMonger · Dec 17, 2009

Ghpstage said:
How the heck did you manage that before even getting your first GP?
And what kind of GP? I thought the CS GProphet gambit died with BTS

Any specific reason you haven't swapped into Slavery? It would make a lot of snse in most games, but being Expansive for cheap Granaries and Workers, and Organised for cheap Lighthouses with Oracled CoL for cheap Courthouses I strongly advise you use it!

I would redo your dotmap, but I don't have time at the moment. There are 2 1 tile off the coast, specialities seem a little confused, and one of your cities can't even be founded as its too close to another....
Alphabet may be worth a look at so you can start trading with the AIs, it'll also give a discount on Currency.

Istanbul really should be churning out Settlers now, I probably wouldn't have even bothered with the grasenary yet, especially as its already running into unhealthiness. It also should have had a Library long before CS was gotten....

I built Oracle after researching CoL. Bulbed Civil Service with the free tech bonus. Fast research was made possible by the 2 Gold in my capital.

Thank you for your advice. Sequence looks like:

1. Explore much more and find Izzy.

2. Churn Settlers and Workers and expand in the Northern gap of land.

3. Spam Cottages.

Glad I picked this leader as he is good for this sort of thing.

CivIVMonger · Dec 17, 2009

Okay. Finally going to get those Photobucket screenshots coming! :love:

Here's to 1AD

Spoiler :

Gumbolt · Dec 17, 2009

Good to see you started rexxing. You are aware upkeep of cities is based on number of cities and distance from the capital. The horse/cows/rice city should of been set up much earlier north of capital.

To sum up this game you built one city and rushed the incas. I would always build a second city first otherwise your game is very limited at the start. With 2 gold in BFC you should be steaming ahead really techwise. None the less around 100 science beakers a turn by 1ad is very reasonable.

Just looking at the screenshots have you connected the gold via roads? Seens a bit wasteful.

Overall i dont see you losing this easily. Liberalism should be in the bag.

CivIVMonger · Dec 17, 2009

Gumbolt said:
Good to see you started rexxing. You are aware upkeep of cities is based on number of cities and distance from the capital. The horse/cows/rice city should of been set up much earlier north of capital.

To sum up this game you built one city and rushed the incas. I would always build a second city first otherwise your game is very limited at the start. With 2 gold in BFC you should be steaming ahead really techwise. None the less around 100 science beakers a turn by 1ad is very reasonable.

Just looking at the screenshots have you connected the gold via roads? Seens a bit wasteful.

Overall i dont see you losing this easily. Liberalism should be in the bag.

Will take heed to your advice with the next update coming either tonight or tomorrow.

Ghpstage · Dec 17, 2009

This game is basically won. It looks like you have a large majority of this continents land to yourself, and as you only have met 2 AIs so far I would think you will the most land of everyone once its settled.

A couple of things that may help in this, or future games;

I think you should have aggresively expanded toward the North after your rush, the lay of the land in your 675BC save suggested blocking that narrow neck in the continent. The one where Lizzy stole your future commerce site
You still haven't gotten a Great Person, ideally you should have had 2 by 1AD and this will greatly improve your games. Try to set up a city with a Library to run 2 scientists earlier, or a Temple or two for Great Prophets etc.
On that note, your Bureau capital would really shine with an Academy!
You also seem to have let up on military production a bit too much, build a few new Axes
I don't think size 1 Konya is the best place to build a Worker, it should probably have started with a Granary or Monument

While working unimproved tiles can happen to anyone, how you react to them is important!

Tiwanaka is a bit of a mess with 2 very weak, and 3 unimproved tiles being worked, I would be whipping some of those Settlers and Exp Workers there! I would start by swapping a Worker to the first build, putting a turn in and whipping (+chop timing!) and using overflow to finish that Settler the turn after.
In Ankara (and other new cities) you can make strong use of Slavery and your Exp trait. Granaries cost 60 , Slavery gives 30*2 (Exp) so with just 1 turn of production put in to remove the penalty you can 1 pop whip a Granary! Remember tha Granaries are very powerful production booster at this stage and remain useful throughout the game.

Also, why are you researching Construction? do you plan a Catapult war? If so I would get Hunting and HBR soon for the Elephants

. Personally though I can't see an offensive war is realistic anytime soon, theres too much free land to take and it will put too much strain on your economy to attack someone!

A few important techs you may consider looking toward getting soon (in no particular order)

Fishing (if you Settle any fish sites)
Monotheism because OR rocks!
Literatrue, Great Library and both Epics.
Metal Casting for Forges
Iron Working if you manage to get a city in the Northern jungle!
Philosophy, needed for Lib allows Pacifism (but won't help much if you don't use Specialists!)

Obviously the OR and Pacifism is an either or thing.
For the record, both AIs have Fishing, they both have Monotheism too but these are too cheap to trade for alone (and add to WFYABTA but I don't think it'll be a big deal on Monarch), Liz also has both MC and IW and I think Izzy will get IW soon too. I would probably look to trade for most of them, but Mono shouldn't take long and you may need Fishing and/or IW

CivIVMonger · Dec 18, 2009

Ghpstage said:
This game is basically won. It looks like you have a large majority of this continents land to yourself, and as you only have met 2 AIs so far I would think you will the most land of everyone once its settled.

A couple of things that may help in this, or future games;

I think you should have aggresively expanded toward the North after your rush, the lay of the land in your 675BC save suggested blocking that narrow neck in the continent. The one where Lizzy stole your future commerce site

You still haven't gotten a Great Person, ideally you should have had 2 by 1AD and this will greatly improve your games. Try to set up a city with a Library to run 2 scientists earlier, or a Temple or two for Great Prophets etc.

On that note, your Bureau capital would really shine with an Academy!

You also seem to have let up on military production a bit too much, build a few new Axes

I don't think size 1 Konya is the best place to build a Worker, it should probably have started with a Granary or Monument

While working unimproved tiles can happen to anyone, how you react to them is important!

Tiwanaka is a bit of a mess with 2 very weak, and 3 unimproved tiles being worked, I would be whipping some of those Settlers and Exp Workers there! I would start by swapping a Worker to the first build, putting a turn in and whipping (+chop timing!) and using overflow to finish that Settler the turn after.

In Ankara (and other new cities) you can make strong use of Slavery and your Exp trait. Granaries cost 60 , Slavery gives 30*2 (Exp) so with just 1 turn of production put in to remove the penalty you can 1 pop whip a Granary! Remember tha Granaries are very powerful production booster at this stage and remain useful throughout the game.

Also, why are you researching Construction? do you plan a Catapult war? If so I would get Hunting and HBR soon for the Elephants . Personally though I can't see an offensive war is realistic anytime soon, theres too much free land to take and it will put too much strain on your economy to attack someone!

A few important techs you may consider looking toward getting soon (in no particular order)

Fishing (if you Settle any fish sites)

Monotheism because OR rocks!

Literatrue, Great Library and both Epics.

Metal Casting for Forges

Iron Working if you manage to get a city in the Northern jungle!

Philosophy, needed for Lib allows Pacifism (but won't help much if you don't use Specialists!)

Obviously the OR and Pacifism is an either or thing.
For the record, both AIs have Fishing, they both have Monotheism too but these are too cheap to trade for alone (and add to WFYABTA but I don't think it'll be a big deal on Monarch), Liz also has both MC and IW and I think Izzy will get IW soon too. I would probably look to trade for most of them, but Mono shouldn't take long and you may need Fishing and/or IW

Thanks for your in-depth advice. Here is to 500AD with a question:

Spoiler :

Berkobob · Dec 18, 2009

great job expanding.

One thing you havent done is set up a GP farm, this should have been done a long time ago, pick a high food city and start running a few scientists (maybe Konya?) to pop a Great Scientist or two.

I think you should bulb philosophy once the GS is ready and switch research to Engineering before heading to Liberalism. Given your size dedicate 3-4 cities to building an army of maces/pikes/trebs and stomping everyone on your continent. Use your other cities to cottage or run specialists and build science improvements (dont know how you have improved the land). Don't need to whip all that much until you are ~ 3-4 turns from declaring, then whip a few units in all cities (except GP farm) and declare once your stack is in place.

Gumbolt · Dec 19, 2009

Okay few thoughts.

You have 3-4 cities with no defenders. In Samsum case its causing 2 unhappy people. Thats 2 cottages not worked.You have excess units in Istanbul just gaining dust!

Cuzco - You are using grassland for cottages which is good. Sometimes irrigating 1-2 grass land helps speed up city growth.

Bursa - You have 3 workers farming plains. These workers would be better off working Samsum or other cities. Samsum has 3-4+ unworked grassland tiles and the iron.

A farmed plains just makes it a grassland in terms of food. Bit pointless unless you are chain spreading irrigation.

Ankara - Why is the gold not mined?? Prioitise the important jobs!!!

Istanbul - Would be better off working the wine and or copper to increase production. Micromanagement is good for the heart and soul. You have no granary, library in your capital!!! Please stop building worker, settlers and sort this out!!! The lack of granary is seriously slowing down your capital growth. If you switched to caste civic your capital could of been running 2 scientists.

Gazaintep can whip a workboat once you have border pop. If you ran caste system you could use an artist to make border pop in 4-5 turns. You prolly could of skipped monument that way.

There is ivory above your capital not hooked up or worked. (Thats +1 happiness in all cities) This provides elephants and +1 happiness. Ackkk please trade for hunting or tech it. 500ad and no hunting is a shocker. :eek:

Workboat in izmir could of been whipped at pop 2.

Dont ignore your UB Hamam in your cities. +2 health and happiness is huge.

If you switch to caste system Tiwanaku could be running 3 scientists. Its already working 2 unworked plains. Its a poor city anyway.

Izmir 2N1E seems a much better city with gems,copper and food. Freshwater desert is useless really. Not worth the fish resource.

Overall 11 cities by 500ad is quite a few. Expanding too far just causes high upkeep in cities that dont have court houses and can be counter productive. You dont need 2 cities pumping out worker/settlers. Perhaps 2-3 more workers to deal with all the unworked tiles but do let your capital grow. Sometimes its better to gain cities by conquest rather than settle weak cities for the sake of it. Always have a purpose.

You could irrigate Samsum and use as a GP farm. For now Tiwanaku with 3 scientists will be useful.

Do remember to play the strengths of the maps. Phant rushes with a catapults are great fun. Once you have ivory hooked up give this a try. You need to start finding a decent production city or a city with lots of irrigation that can run a few workshops.

Aesthetics and literature/ music should be teched before liberalism. The free GA is useful with music.

Hope this helps.

CivIVMonger · Dec 19, 2009

Gumbolt said:
Okay few thoughts.

You have 3-4 cities with no defenders. In Samsum case its causing 2 unhappy people. Thats 2 cottages not worked.You have excess units in Istanbul just gaining dust!

Cuzco - You are using grassland for cottages which is good. Sometimes irrigating 1-2 grass land helps speed up city growth.

Bursa - You have 3 workers farming plains. These workers would be better off working Samsum or other cities. Samsum has 3-4+ unworked grassland tiles and the iron.

A farmed plains just makes it a grassland in terms of food. Bit pointless unless you are chain spreading irrigation.

Ankara - Why is the gold not mined?? Prioitise the important jobs!!!

Istanbul - Would be better off working the wine and or copper to increase production. Micromanagement is good for the heart and soul. You have no granary, library in your capital!!! Please stop building worker, settlers and sort this out!!! The lack of granary is seriously slowing down your capital growth. If you switched to caste civic your capital could of been running 2 scientists.

Gazaintep can whip a workboat once you have border pop. If you ran caste system you could use an artist to make border pop in 4-5 turns. You prolly could of skipped monument that way.

There is ivory above your capital not hooked up or worked. (Thats +1 happiness in all cities) This provides elephants and +1 happiness. Ackkk please trade for hunting or tech it. 500ad and no hunting is a shocker.

Workboat in izmir could of been whipped at pop 2.

Dont ignore your UB Hamam in your cities. +2 health and happiness is huge.

If you switch to caste system Tiwanaku could be running 3 scientists. Its already working 2 unworked plains. Its a poor city anyway.

Izmir 2N1E seems a much better city with gems,copper and food. Freshwater desert is useless really. Not worth the fish resource.

Overall 11 cities by 500ad is quite a few. Expanding too far just causes high upkeep in cities that dont have court houses and can be counter productive. You dont need 2 cities pumping out worker/settlers. Perhaps 2-3 more workers to deal with all the unworked tiles but do let your capital grow. Sometimes its better to gain cities by conquest rather than settle weak cities for the sake of it. Always have a purpose.

You could irrigate Samsum and use as a GP farm. For now Tiwanaku with 3 scientists will be useful.

Do remember to play the strengths of the maps. Phant rushes with a catapults are great fun. Once you have ivory hooked up give this a try. You need to start finding a decent production city or a city with lots of irrigation that can run a few workshops.

Aesthetics and literature/ music should be teched before liberalism. The free GA is useful with music.

Hope this helps.

Wow... You're right. I am screwing up, though victory is still visible. I plan on using Maces and War 'Phants for a war against England. I will start taking heed to your micro advice, I still plan on having at least 1 settler in production at a time.

I will try to grow my capitol. I don't see how I am going to produce a good sized army without slavery though... :confused:

Caste System is a great civic, but I can't run slavery and Caste. I think I will run 2 scientists in 2 of my cities while I get GScientists but keeping slavery until Military production stops.

Next will be to either 1000AD/Liberalism/or End of War

kossin · Dec 19, 2009

While war is often a great option given how ahead you come out after swallowing up a neighbor, it doesn't teach you much in term of managing cities as you can do pretty much what you want and still win easily.

For most players, understanding war is easy and they do a pretty good job of it. Builder-types will usually focus on wonders and not individual cities.

Gumbolt highlighted the major problems in your save so I would focus on that.

I think you would learn most by just focusing on your own cities, specialization, getting enough workers and prioritizing the correct things with them and with infrastructure.

You're in a winning position, don't worry about it.

Fleme · Dec 19, 2009

Seems strange that Cuzco didn't get any food from the generator.

CivIVMonger · Dec 19, 2009

Thanks to Kossin, Gumbolt, and GHPstage for your wonderful advice. Before I say anything else, I just want to say thank you.

To 1000AD

Spoiler :

Gumbolt · Dec 19, 2009

In all honesty I prefer the idea of taking out the English. If you have open borders with English send in stack via spanish lands.

When you build a unit move them to your stack city. They need to be in one large stack. it will take 5-6 turns to move all these units. When you attack bombard with trebs on t1. Then take down city with trebs and mace next turn. I wouldnt waste all your trebs on first city.

The English capital will give you TGLH and colosus. Hastings has a great array of resources and commerce ones at that. In all you already have enough units to take English down. I really dont think the Spanish would ever attack you when at friendly. They are not financial.

Overall I am worried that you seem to fear using specialists in your cities. If you look at my JoaII game i am currently playing you will see most of my science is coming from specialists and my capital. By 715ad I have had 4 great people and thats without a real GP farm. 5 if you include reaching music first.

A library and 2 scientists in a city early on is more than enough to pop a great scientist.

You have plenty of spare forest to chop. Theres no great need to whip too much. Have you built heroic epic yet?

On emperor level the Ai once they have castles will be a tough nut to break. You will need to improve your micro management skills for then.

2nd Monarch Attempt

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Deity

Chieftain

Warlord

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Having Fun At It

Emperor

Emperor

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Emperor

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Emperor

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