3 things that irritate me about industrial/modern naval combat

[El Caballerion]

So far, G&K has considerably improved the naval game. The AI now settles on islands more often, and will attack/invade you more often. Nice...

However, I find these three things lacking:

1. WOODEN & MODERN SHIPS ATTACKING: I've played too many games where the AI will attack me with a combination of battleships/destroyers AND frigates/privateers. It's kind of immersion breaking. I know that in the mid-19th century, wooden ships were upgraded with metal plating, but since there is no logical in-between upgrade from frigate-battleship, the result are 'World War 2-esqe' battles that just dont seem right.

Maybe there can be an ARMOURED FRIGATE unit, which resembles an ironclad, but with ranged ability? The unit can be an upgrade from a regular frigate, and maybe carry the INDIRECT FIRE upgrade, but keep a range of 2.
​

2. AI HANDLING OF CARRIERS: Ugh. The AI builds a ton of carriers (in IMMORTAL) but rarely stockpiles them with planes. Again, very immersion breaking.

MAYBE each CARRIER can come loaded with 1 fighter?​

Maybe there could also be a naval national wonder that when built, lets each carrier have +1 bomber and +1 fighter already attached to it? Of course, this would cause the carrier to be worth much more production/gold, but it would make them the super units they deserve to be.
​

3. WOODEN SHIPS FIRING AT AIR UNITS: In attempt to get rid of as many obselete units through air power, I think that all wooden ships should NOT be able to attack ANY air units, furthering their demise and being more accurate.

Thoughts!???

 

[Arachnofiend]

1. Agreed. Now that naval warfare is a more viable way to play the game we could use some further expansion of it. Another unit between Frigates and Battleships would suffice.

2. I think that this has the potential to be more game breaking than anything else. Wouldn't it be easier to just tell the AI not to build more carriers than they have oil to build planes?

3. Everything can do damage to air units for balance reasons. If a warrior can hit a stealth bomber then so can a frigate.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Regardin 1, if many people feel upset about that, then they will ikely add it in the second expansion pack (if one is in works that is). Same how they made a whole line of Archery units with Archer, Compositbe Bowmen, etc.

 

[Aleok]

For the third point, I don't think I could've described it any better. IT IS SO ANNOYING! How can an 15th century caravel can defend itself against my WW2 era bomber? You are supposed to blow up to a million pieces you goddamn ship! I play with war animations on, so I can see and be disgusted by guided keshik arrows just like how you'd hate cannons shooting at stealth bombers.

 

[Haig]

When playing Gods&Kings, my AI enemies have (almost) always planes in their carriers.
In my games with Vanilla civ, I found lots of those empty carriers.

Maybe I've been lucky or you unlucky?

 

[terveurn]

Some other issues with Naval Warfare in Civ V

Can not land bombard with ironclads or DD's - maybe the designers should look at the history of both these ships (esp ironclads at Battle of Vicksburg) and DD's in the South Pacific during WWII

Would not mind seeing PT's introduced - long rang boats short range weapons but cheap to make..

 

[smallfish]

Can not land bombard with ironclads or DD's - maybe the designers should look at the history of both these ships (esp ironclads at Battle of Vicksburg) and DD's in the South Pacific during WWI.

The devs must be rolling in their office spaces right now. Real hard.

 

[CrispyCritter]

So far, G&K has considerably improved the naval game. The AI now settles on islands more often, and will attack/invade you more often. Nice...

However, I find these three things lacking:

1. WOODEN & MODERN SHIPS ATTACKING: I've played too many games where the AI will attack me with a combination of battleships/destroyers AND frigates/privateers. It's kind of immersion breaking. I know that in the mid-19th century, wooden ships were upgraded with metal plating, but since there is no logical in-between upgrade from frigate-battleship, the result are 'World War 2-esqe' battles that just dont seem right.

Maybe there can be an ARMOURED FRIGATE unit, which resembles an ironclad, but with ranged ability? The unit can be an upgrade from a regular frigate, and maybe carry the INDIRECT FIRE upgrade, but keep a range of 2.
​

2. AI HANDLING OF CARRIERS: Ugh. The AI builds a ton of carriers (in IMMORTAL) but rarely stockpiles them with planes. Again, very immersion breaking.

MAYBE each CARRIER can come loaded with 1 fighter?​

Maybe there could also be a naval national wonder that when built, lets each carrier have +1 bomber and +1 fighter already attached to it? Of course, this would cause the carrier to be worth much more production/gold, but it would make them the super units they deserve to be.
​

3. WOODEN SHIPS FIRING AT AIR UNITS: In attempt to get rid of as many obselete units through air power, I think that all wooden ships should NOT be able to attack ANY air units, furthering their demise and being more accurate.

Thoughts!???

For 1 and 3, in the case of backward nations with old equipment, you underestimate the power of the black market. Those wooden frigates have all been equipped with not-latest-generation black market weaponry by those expert spying city states who are somehow able to get a hold of the latest technology weapons but need to sell off their previous weapons to finance the new weapons.

As a somewhat more serious answer, I just view it as a naming problem. In a mixed fleet, those wooden frigates are not actually wooden frigates any more, but a smaller number of small modern ships with about the same firepower as a wooden frigate. For game play reasons, they're still called frigates so the human player doesn't have to remember another unit name like "gunboat" with the same stats as the frigate but able to inflict modern damage.

 

[Louis XXIV]

If people have a problem with older technology attacking planes, just pretend that it's the plane simply needing maintenance due to the wear and tear of flight.

 

[apocalypse105]

To make the Ai handle aircraft carriers better do it like advance wars:

Let the aircraft carrier make his own planes so you click on the unit and you have the option to built a fighter plane which is much weaker then normal fighter (tri plane) and cost same amount of turns( on average production)

You could balance it out if the carrier is producing it they can't move

 

[terveurn]

For 1 and 3, in the case of backward nations with old equipment, you underestimate the power of the black market. Those wooden frigates have all been equipped with not-latest-generation black market weaponry by those expert spying city states who are somehow able to get a hold of the latest technology weapons but need to sell off their previous weapons to finance the new weapons.

As a somewhat more serious answer, I just view it as a naming problem. In a mixed fleet, those wooden frigates are not actually wooden frigates any more, but a smaller number of small modern ships with about the same firepower as a wooden frigate. For game play reasons, they're still called frigates so the human player doesn't have to remember another unit name like "gunboat" with the same stats as the frigate but able to inflict modern damage.

The devs must be rolling in their office spaces right now. Real hard

 

[smallfish]

The devs must be rolling in their office spaces right now. Real hard

Ahhh... except there was precedence for my comment eh

Remember this ranged stuff?

Spoiler :

 

[Zaimejs]

Carriers coming with planes is the best idea ever. They really need to fix what takes what to be built.

Why some things need oil and iron but others don't is beyond me. The powers that be need to rethink what takes resources because right now it's kind of silly.

I don't think I've ever built a carrier in Civ 5. I might have... early on... but not since. I'm not sure what that means.

 

[kaspergm]

3. Everything can do damage to air units for balance reasons. If a warrior can hit a stealth bomber then so can a frigate.

I kind of agree with OP on point 3. I'm not against them doing damage, but the amount of damage done by a Frigate to a Bomber is quite significant which kind of seems stupid, so there could probably be done some balancing there. But then again, bombing a Lancer will also damage your Bomber ...

 

[Gort]

Some other issues with Naval Warfare in Civ V

Can not land bombard with ironclads or DD's

That's more of an "it's a game" thing. Does it tear you up inside that archers can't draw their swords and attack and riflemen aren't ranged units too?

...come to think of it, it'd be cool if they fixed that.

 

[Toadman2]

I remember in the one of the other civs units that were being attacked by out of date era's were severely handicapped. Maybe they should put a power/era factor in the game too like they had in an older civ version.

 

[zyx]

Carriers should have 3 long range ( 10 tiles?) attacks per turn - which simulates the bombers/fighters. This way the AI could not waste turns by building carriers but no planes, or shifting planes from one carrier to the other.

I think the idea behind not implementing transports was that it is easier for the AI to move their units across the water than loading them on transports first. Why not apply this idea on carriers too by giving carriers multiple "planes/attacks"?

 

[20jordo]

So far, G&K has considerably improved the naval game. The AI now settles on islands more often, and will attack/invade you more often. Nice...

However, I find these three things lacking:

1. WOODEN & MODERN SHIPS ATTACKING: I've played too many games where the AI will attack me with a combination of battleships/destroyers AND frigates/privateers. It's kind of immersion breaking. I know that in the mid-19th century, wooden ships were upgraded with metal plating, but since there is no logical in-between upgrade from frigate-battleship, the result are 'World War 2-esqe' battles that just dont seem right.

Maybe there can be an ARMOURED FRIGATE unit, which resembles an ironclad, but with ranged ability? The unit can be an upgrade from a regular frigate, and maybe carry the INDIRECT FIRE upgrade, but keep a range of 2.
​

2. AI HANDLING OF CARRIERS: Ugh. The AI builds a ton of carriers (in IMMORTAL) but rarely stockpiles them with planes. Again, very immersion breaking.

MAYBE each CARRIER can come loaded with 1 fighter?​

Maybe there could also be a naval national wonder that when built, lets each carrier have +1 bomber and +1 fighter already attached to it? Of course, this would cause the carrier to be worth much more production/gold, but it would make them the super units they deserve to be.
​

3. WOODEN SHIPS FIRING AT AIR UNITS: In attempt to get rid of as many obselete units through air power, I think that all wooden ships should NOT be able to attack ANY air units, furthering their demise and being more accurate.

Thoughts!???

this is an interesting thread. although i disagree with point 2, i play a mix of king and emperor.. and theyre always sending out carriers with bombers and at least one air striker. i would have to agree on everything else and i like the armored frigate idea bro

 

[TrentL]

I played a game the other day and the AI built a TON of carriers but no subs... needless to say the Naval battle wasn't much of a battle as I lined my coasts with Subs to hold off any invasion (Which did come) while I built Carriers battleships and eventually my favorite Missile Cruisers.

Naval war is one of my favorite ways to wage war creating beach heads etc. So I any improvement to Naval warfare would be awesome.

 

[El Caballerion]

Carriers should have 3 long range ( 10 tiles?) attacks per turn - which simulates the bombers/fighters. This way the AI could not waste turns by building carriers but no planes, or shifting planes from one carrier to the other.

I think the idea behind not implementing transports was that it is easier for the AI to move their units across the water than loading them on transports first. Why not apply this idea on carriers too by giving carriers multiple "planes/attacks"?

Now THIS is a good idea! Instead of loading it with planes, the carrier just has a 'bombard' option which when used, shows a plane graphic attacking/bombing units or cities. Nice!

In addition, the carrier can just come with an intercept option to defend itself and could carry promotions that gives it LOGISTICS (which i believe allows for +1 attack) earlier, but in this case, it simply means the carrier has more planes.