"300" - The Mod

[Ares de Borg]

-The Persians shouldn't have War Elephants. The Greeks didn't encounter them until Alexander invaded India.

Sorry, you're wrong. Persia had elephants at Gaugamela.

See Arrian Book III.11

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/achaemenids/arrian_battle_of_gaugamela.php

The Uxians, the Babylonians, the men who dwell near the Red Sea, and the Sitacenians had also been drawn up in deep column. On the left, opposite Alexander's right, had been posted the Scythian cavalry, about I,000 Bactrians and 100 scythe-bearing chariots. In front of Darius's royal squadron of cavalry stood the elephants and fifty chariots. In front of the right wing the Armenian and Cappadocian cavalry with fifty scythe-bearing chariots had been posted. The Greek mercenaries, as alone capable of coping with the Macedonians, were stationed right opposite their phalanx, in two divisions close beside Darius himself and his Persian attendants, one division on each side.


PS: I hold a lesson about this battle two weeks ago at university.

 

[Kyriakos]

The greek ships should have better stats than the persian ones Perhaps +2 movement since they were a lot faster, and +1 attack.

 

[Ares de Borg]

The greek ships should have better stats than the persian ones Perhaps +2 movement since they were a lot faster, and +1 attack.

Another common misconception. The Persians had triremes as well, but had also a lot of pentecontors in their ranks. Main reason for the loss of Salamis was that the Persian ships were badly led and fought under bad conditions.

Fleet sizes:
Greece 324 ships (all triremes)
Persia ~1200 ships

Literature (sorry, it's in German):

GEHRKE, Hans-Joachim: Kleine Geschichte der Antike. München 1999

KLUDAS, Arnold: Vom Einbaum zum Atomschiff. Nürnberg, Hamburg 1984

NIMITZ, Chester W.; POTTER, Elmar: Seemacht. Eine Seekriegsgeschichte von der Antike bis zur Gegenwart. Überarbeitete Ausgabe, Frankfurt 1986

PEMSEL, Helmut: Seeherrschaft. Eine maritime Weltgeschichte von den Anfängen der Seefahrt bis zur Gegenwart, Band 1: Beginn der Seefahrt bis 1850, Koblenz 1985

 

[Tathlum]

Another common misconception. The Persians had triremes as well, but had also a lot of pentecontors in their ranks. Main reason for the loss of Salamis was that the Persian ships were badly led and fought under bad conditions.

Fleet sizes:
Greece 324 ships (all triremes)
Persia ~1200 ships

True, but the only way to represent this easily in a civ3 mod is to give them better stats to represent greater cohesion and leadership. Other-wise the Persian ships can just swarm the Greek ones and theres no way to recreate the fact that at Salamis the Persians could not bring their numbers to bear.

 

[Kyriakos]

There must be a way to present the outcome of the naval battle as one close enough to what happened though. If both ships are the same then with so many more cities the persian fleet will be both massive in comparisson, and obviously will not lock itself up in the narrow passage in Salamis, so it will just dominate

 

[Keroro]

The greek ships should have better stats than the persian ones Perhaps +2 movement since they were a lot faster, and +1 attack.

Another common misconception indeed. Barry Strauss, in 'The Greatest Naval Battle of the Ancient World: Salamis' 2004, argues that the Athenian triremes (Trieres if you want to be more Greek) were considerably heavier than the Persian fleet. It was the Persian fleet (remember that the Persians did not actually build any ships, they drew their navy mainly from the Phoenician, Ionian and Cilician satrapies) that was quicker and nimbler, and thus the decision of Themistocles to bring the Persians into the narrows at Salamis where the Athenians could bring their greater weight and power to bear. The Athenian Trieres should be better on offence and defence, the Phoenicians should be quicker. Another thing to note is that the Athenians had a relatively new and inexperienced fleet, while the Phoenicians were experienced veterans or elites.

 

[CivArmy s. 1994]

Hi friends! Some comments mine:
- The Spartans did hate the archery units, in the graphic novel they mentioned something like "fight like a man!" after a storm of arrows have fallen in their heads.
- I agree about the freaky look of Xerxes, but I’m following the Miller’s artwork reference, the used LH will be this developed one, but we can easily configure a alternative version of the scenario that uses the Civ3 Vanilla Xerxes artwork for people how dislike this “Sagat of Street Fighter” look of the LH
- In the future I want to add new units: Camel Warriors, more seafaring units, new Greek units, the Spartan Aspiring Warrior (the little boy with the wood spear)… they will be added in the first expansion. It is better I launch a first version “lite” next week or so and them increase the scenario resources with new civis, units, wonders… I don’t want create something complex in the beginning and quit the project in the middle of the execution.
- @Odintheking: cool unit! I want to use it and I’d like to request a “bold” Xerxes King Unit too (if u want to create). BTW, could u send to me that unit “leg protection”, I want add it in my units (if it is a free prop). I just want to suggest add the “team color”, that BLUE RGB 58-100-255.
- @Virote: cool suggestions! I’ll try to add them

BTW, thanks for all the comments and suggestion friends!!!

 

[Keroro]

Hi friends! Some comments mine:
- The Spartans did hate the archery units, in the graphic novel they mentioned something like "fight like a man!" after a storm of arrows have fallen in their heads.

The Persian bowmen were pretty ineffective against the Spartan armour. One of the Spartans is meant to have said that he did not mind if the Persian arrows blocked out the sun, as he preferred to fight in the shade.

- I agree about the freaky look of Xerxes, but I’m following the Miller’s artwork reference, the used LH will be this developed one, but we can easily configure a alternative version of the scenario that uses the Civ3 Vanilla Xerxes artwork for people how dislike this “Sagat of Street Fighter” look of the LH
- In the future I want to add new units: Camel Warriors, more seafaring units, new Greek units, the Spartan Aspiring Warrior (the little boy with the wood spear)… they will be added in the first expansion. It is better I launch a first version “lite” next week or so and them increase the scenario resources with new civis, units, wonders… I don’t want create something complex in the beginning and quit the project in the middle of the execution.

I think that you have the best idea, a basic mod to begin with, then expansions and add ons later if people want them. Do you really think that you'll have the first version ready for next week? That's amazingly quick.

 

[odintheking]

Civ Army - those greaves are part of Kinboat's Legion set, available in his PDM thread, . The sandals and plume are also part of it. You just have to delete the props you don't want (i.e. the Gladius, Pilum, etc.) from the scene.

 

[Maimonides]

Sorry, you're wrong. Persia had elephants at Gaugamela.

See Arrian Book III.11

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/achaemenids/arrian_battle_of_gaugamela.php

The Uxians, the Babylonians, the men who dwell near the Red Sea, and the Sitacenians had also been drawn up in deep column. On the left, opposite Alexander's right, had been posted the Scythian cavalry, about I,000 Bactrians and 100 scythe-bearing chariots. In front of Darius's royal squadron of cavalry stood the elephants and fifty chariots. In front of the right wing the Armenian and Cappadocian cavalry with fifty scythe-bearing chariots had been posted. The Greek mercenaries, as alone capable of coping with the Macedonians, were stationed right opposite their phalanx, in two divisions close beside Darius himself and his Persian attendants, one division on each side.


PS: I hold a lesson about this battle two weeks ago at university.

Interesting. I didn't remember that, but, again, the Persians shouldn't have War Elephants here. Gaugamela, Darius & Alexander occured long after the Battle of Thermopylae. The Persians did have Chariots during Xerxes' invasion of Greece though they were litttle help in the narrow pass at Thermopylae so I'm sticking with my suggestion that they replace War Elephants in this scenario.

 

[odintheking]

Currently rendering Leonidas. Civ Army, have you noticed this archer done by Embryodead a while back?

 

[Kyriakos]

Does anyone know what the idea was behind F. Miller's depiction of the persians with such uniforms/skin traits?

 

[Quinzy]

odin: the greek, AFAIK, never used archers as such, but rather hired Scythians as archers.

 

[WerBackIII]

Do you need help?

 

[odintheking]

Bit of a crappy report on Leonidas; Poser decided to delete all the lights and figures in my main Leonidas File. I have the run fine, but I'm really pissed that it deleted all of my animations (I was planning to render today). It'll probably take a longer time to finish it now, sorry, .

 

[Stormrage]

Does anyone know what the idea was behind F. Miller's depiction of the persians with such uniforms/skin traits?

He was probably high..

 

[CivArmy s. 1994]

Bit of a crappy report on Leonidas; Poser decided to delete all the lights and figures in my main Leonidas File. I have the run fine, but I'm really pissed that it deleted all of my animations (I was planning to render today). It'll probably take a longer time to finish it now, sorry, .

something like this here too I was planing work in the mod this weekend and I was not able to do that, cos I changed my PC and I'm finding some problems, some of them in Poser

 

[bd41094]

Looks great.
I would ask about the archer anim. problems but that was already taken care of so my last remaining suggestion is that the helmet on the is a little bit inaccurate. In the picture the edges seem to slant up, in the LH the dont slant up.

 

[odintheking]

I finished Leonidas:

HERE

 

[Quinzy]

Oh, I've just noticed =\ that horse model looks atrocious it looks too... cowish? I don't know... it just looks too fat, the legs too stocky, and otehr such cowlike features...