3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[doublex55]

Polynesia doesnt need an early naval UU, their embarked units are fine in ancient and classical.

Maybe you are right about the council UB tech staying at wheel.

What do you think about giving polynesian naval units a great general like promotion to land units. (Or feared elephant type against enemy land units).

 

[pineappledan]

I feel like we're relying on great generals and medic promotions a little too much right now. Sweden's new UU is getting GG II as well

So essentially making haka war dance a promotion off of council instead of it being exclusive to the maori warrior?

 

[doublex55]

I feel like we're relying on great generals and medic promotions a little too much right now. Sweden's new UU is getting GG II as well

So essentially making haka war dance a promotion off of council instead of it being exclusive to the maori warrior?

Oh, what does haka war dance do again? Also, i dont like supply on a polynesian naval unit, you will have lots of places to go heal up, especially if they will be land support you will almost always be close to home. It feels like we are trying to give all naval UUs supply.

 

[pineappledan]

it's -10% for adjacent enemies. It's identical to feared elephant

 

[doublex55]

it's -10% for adjacent enemies. It's identical to feared elephant

I would go with general on the boat then. +15% to land units within 2 tiles of the naval unit. This is different from other general promotions because it is on a naval unit, the gameplay is a lot sifferent.

 

[pineappledan]

that would stack with maoi bonus for 35%. Then if you have a GG that's 50% base attack power modifiers on basically any defensive engagement. That might be a bit much

With moai already cornering the market on straight dmg buffs, I don't think they're the answer

 

[doublex55]

that would stack with maoi bonus for 35%. Then if you have a GG that's 50% base attack power modifiers on basically any defensive engagement. That might be a bit much

With moai already cornering the market on straight dmg buffs, I don't think they're the answer

Is there some other way to get polynesia to have stronger naval land support than normal? It feels very thematic. I guess a ranged naval unit without naval innacuraccy?

 

[pineappledan]

But... but that's not really their jam is it? That's not how I've played them at least. I go off the beaten track, settle offshore where I'm not competing for space, and go hard culture for the tourism victory. Last time I played Polynesia I don't even think I got in a single war.

They aren't combined arms, they are exploration. I've never really considered them a contender for domination civ, though that probably owes more to them having one of the worst UUs in the game

I'm not really sure why a lighthouse replacement would boost great generals instead of great admirals anyways.

 

[doublex55]

But... but that's not really their jam is it? That's not how I've played them at least. I go off the beaten track, settle offshore where I'm not competing for space, and go hard culture for the tourism victory. Last time I played Polynesia I don't even think I got in a single war.

They aren't combined arms, they are exploration. I've never really considered them a contender for domination civ, though that probably owes more to them having one of the worst UUs in the game

I'm not really sure why a lighthouse replacement would boost great generals instead of great admirals anyways.

Im not the one who wanted a lighthouse replacement, i think @Jarula misunderstood me This was an idea for a promotion given by the council replacement instead of science from building boats. It seemed weird they dont have a naval uu so was just thinking up something nice for their navy. And the idea is more a strong defensive front and maybe pick off a couple coastal cities. They wont go domination because they want to stay by the coast.

However, i dont think they are in such a bad situation as japan with nothing naval economy or military wise. Hopefully we go with the Yamato. IMO every coastal start bias civ should have something to help economy and/or military of coastal cities if we are working with 5 UC. Are there any civs left like this?

 

[FoxOfWar]

In my opinion, Polynesia wants that early settling/exploration stuff if anything. While it's not exactly historically accurate, I keep thinking that sight/supply beefed up Dromon could be an interesting (and unused, I think) option for UU. As for building, I would probably go for something just a bit later (Classical-Medieval) that's not a naval building replacement, but beefs up coastal/ocean tiles, like giving +1 culture or +1 science to them. Wouldn't need to be a big bonus if it's on a building one generally wants to build on an expansion-island anyway soon enough (pretty much all Classical buildings and most Medieval), especially if said building gives some other bonus. Council, however, is just too early for any meaningful-but-not-broken bonus.

As a Finn, I'm borderline offended if anyone thinks 'bastu' and 'sauna' are the same thing. But given the history(Finland was a part of Sweden for hundreds of years, after all), I am fine with either name for the building itself. Saunas have always been places for healing and childbirth, so some sort of growth/food bonus is a given. Similarly, saunas are the places good ideas come from, so culture is probably the other focus I'd have there (given it's also Baths replacement). Would +1 culture + 2 food on tundra tiles be overpowered, given how useless tundra is in just about every other scenario? Alternatively, give +1 food for each tundra(or snow) tile within the city's work range, small growth bonus (like 10%) and culture on citizen birth.

EDIT: What if said Dromon had a hefty combat bonus in friendly waters, instead of supply, making it somewhat of a guardian of those faraway islands?

 

[doublex55]

In my opinion,



EDIT: What if said Dromon had a hefty combat bonus in friendly waters, instead of supply, making it somewhat of a guardian of those faraway islands?

Friendly waters doesnt work for dromon because you will only have 3-4 ocean tiles at that point per coastal city.

With 2 spammable UI polynesia better be good at defending because whover conquers them is going to have an insane amount of yields.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Friendly waters doesnt work for dromon because you will only have 3-4 ocean tiles at that point per coastal city.

With 2 spammable UI polynesia better be good at defending because whover conquers them is going to have an insane amount of yields.

...2? What would be the second one after Moai? Am I missing something?

Also, hence I said 'hefty'. It could still defend the places it's supposed to
EDIT: or change it to be bonus near owned cities instead.

 

[De_Genius]

Ok.
I have decided to give the Danish a try.
Sign me up for that, and I will give it a go.
Forgive me, if I end up dropping it, but if I do, I will be sure to let you know.

 

[doublex55]

Oh wait is it indonesia that got the worker embarked improvement?

 

[FoxOfWar]

Oh wait is it indonesia that got the worker embarked improvement?

Yup. Polynesia's looking at having a new military unit(possibly a boat) and a building, since they already have a their UI and Maori Warrior.

 

[De_Genius]

Ok.
So I have started on the Langskib and has progressed fairly well.

I am wondering though. The description on the idea/project post mentions that it should have 18 CP instead of the usual 20, but a Caravel in VP has 25, so I assume that the Langskib should have 22 ?

I have added the Supply, Medic and Medic II promotions to it, but for some reason it also has Extra Sight and Melee Withdrawal promotions!! Does anyone know why ?

I have taken the icon images from JFDs mod, but I can not seem to get the unit model to work. Instead it shows a larger group for spearmen taking forever to move on water

Also my units seems to upgrade to an Ironclad, although the Corvette shows that it should upgrade to a Corvette.

I am having a blast doing this, so I will definitely finish the Danish Ting as well.

I have attached the mod in its current version.

Feedback and help is greatly appreciated.

 

[pineappledan]

However, i dont think they are in such a bad situation as japan with nothing naval economy or military wise. Hopefully we go with the Yamato. IMO every coastal start bias civ should have something to help economy and/or military of coastal cities if we are working with 5 UC. Are there any civs left like this?

They aren't in a bad situation at all. Their early boats and embarked units can attack and expand without reprisal because of deep water access. They get bonus food to fish and atolls. Their UI gives 20% if 2 tiles to friendly coastline. Their seaside focus is doing fine. Even in the original proposal, koa have amphibious and the fale buffs workboats even further

You'll have to work on @BazaarJack if you want the Yamato. He's claimed Japan. I agree that Japan should get a boat, but I've spoken my peace at this point.

Polynesia wants that early settling/exploration stuff if anything. While it's not exactly historically accurate, I keep thinking that sight/supply beefed up Dromon could be an interesting (and unused, I think) option for UU. As for building, I would probably go for something just a bit later (Classical-Medieval) that's not a naval building replacement, but beefs up coastal/ocean tiles, like giving +1 culture or +1 science to them. Wouldn't need to be a big bonus if it's on a building one generally wants to build on an expansion-island anyway soon enough (pretty much all Classical buildings and most Medieval), especially if said building gives some other bonus. Council, however, is just too early for any meaningful-but-not-broken bonus.

A dromon replacement has the same problem as a trireme replacement: it doesn't really help polynesia with exploring, settling or expanding during early game because they don't need military support. In fact, military units at that point would screw their build order. A dromon replacement also can't take advantage of the UA, which allows naval melee ships to build fishing boats. That's why I suggested that the tongiaki's main selling feature would be an instant yield when building fishing boats, because their UA makes naval units more useful as infrastructure than as military

I kinda like that there aren't any other unique councils yet. There's a unique monument and a unique granary, which are also ultra-low tech though. The Fale Tele in the original Samoa mod is a harbour a replacement, a building which we also have no other uniques for. It's not a non-naval building like you suggest, but the resources exist and it's interesting enough. If people prefer the idea of a harbour replacement then I'll come up with bonuses for that

As a Finn, I'm borderline offended if anyone thinks 'bastu' and 'sauna' are the same thing. But given the history(Finland was a part of Sweden for hundreds of years, after all), I am fine with either name for the building itself. Saunas have always been places for healing and childbirth, so some sort of growth/food bonus is a given. Similarly, saunas are the places good ideas come from, so culture is probably the other focus I'd have there (given it's also Baths replacement). Would +1 culture + 2 food on tundra tiles be overpowered, given how useless tundra is in just about every other scenario? Alternatively, give +1 food for each tundra(or snow) tile within the city's work range, small growth bonus (like 10%) and culture on citizen birth.

Thank you. I think comparisons to saunas in the civilopedia are inevitable, but I hope that naming it bastu will make people appreciate the difference. There aren't separate english language wikipedia entries for both. Maybe if people see it they will be sensitive to what they call the Turkish and Russian equivalents too.
I tried to acknowledge their use as places for childbirth with the 15% food during golden ages.
1 2 would make tundra 31 total; More than twice as good as plains or grassland. I didn't want to reorient Sweden as some sort of "arctic civ", making tundra more valuable than other alternative terrain was never my intention, but it would make tundra cities a little more palatable, especially with enough hills and forests. I'm also contemplating giving culture to lake tiles.
Your idea of a culture boost on birth isn't bad. I think if I added it I would remove the tundra/lake tile bonuses though. What about 50% of the city's cultural output as an instant boost on citizen being born? That would make it a cultural equivalent to a Korean Seowon.
Option 1:

Spoiler :

UB - Bastu
baths replacement
+4 culture (up from 2)
+1 and +1 from Temples, Amphitheaters and Gardens
15% and 15% during Golden Ages (up from 10% only)
1 from tundra and lake tiles
Requires fresh water (as opposed to river)

Option 2:

Spoiler :

UB - Bastu
baths replacement
+4 culture (up from 2)
+1 and +1 from Temples, Amphitheaters and Gardens
15% and 15% during Golden Ages (up from 10% only)
50% of culture output in city as an instant boost whenever a citizen is born
No tile requirements (baths require river)

 

[adan_eslavo]

New version on board.
Russia completed. Rest of changes in changelog file.

It's too much culture in both in my opinion. I think also that it shouldn't have requirement however water sources seem reasonable. Maybe make one of three water sources instead of one (lake, river, coast)?

 

[pineappledan]

New version on board.
Russia completed. Rest of changes in changelog file.

Cool. It looks like the modifiers from the mercantilism policy should work on the ostrog without you changing anything. Did you increase the cost of Ostrog back to 1000, or is it still 800? Did you buff it any to compensate for the later tech?

It's too much culture in both in my opinion. I think also that it shouldn't have requirement however water sources seem reasonable. Maybe make one of three water sources instead of one (lake, river, coast)?

Should i reduce the culture from 4 to 3 on just the base building? I guess with it being a bastu, as opposed to a sauna, there's very little justification for requiring fresh water. I'll remove the tile requirement.

Do you prefer the 50% boost on citizen birth version then?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Ok.
So I have started on the Langskib and has progressed fairly well.

I am wondering though. The description on the idea/project post mentions that it should have 18 CP instead of the usual 20, but a Caravel in VP has 25, so I assume that the Langskib should have 22 ?

I have added the Supply, Medic and Medic II promotions to it, but for some reason it also has Extra Sight and Melee Withdrawal promotions!! Does anyone know why ?

I have taken the icon images from JFDs mod, but I can not seem to get the unit model to work. Instead it shows a larger group for spearmen taking forever to move on water

Also my units seems to upgrade to an Ironclad, although the Corvette shows that it should upgrade to a Corvette.

I am having a blast doing this, so I will definitely finish the Danish Ting as well.

I have attached the mod in its current version.

Feedback and help is greatly appreciated.

1. First of all add dependency from VP to your mod. It helps many times.
2. I saw somewhere that these 3 lines should be 1 instead of 0. Does this do something? I don't know :

<ReloadLandmarkSystem>0</ReloadLandmarkSystem>
    <ReloadStrategicViewSystem>0</ReloadStrategicViewSystem>
    <ReloadUnitSystem>0</ReloadUnitSystem>

3. I also have problems with 3d models. I left it for other times.
4. This code borrows all promotions from caravel. Did you check if it has those two unnecessary promotion?

--------------------------------
-- Unit_FreePromotions
--------------------------------
INSERT INTO Unit_FreePromotions     
            (UnitType,                     PromotionType)
SELECT        'UNIT_DANISH_LANGSKIB',         PromotionType
FROM Unit_FreePromotions WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_CARAVEL';

5. Caravel was upgraded in vanilla civ to ironclas AFAIR. Dependency should work.
6. To check tables for VP use sqlitespy from first post of this thread. It helps a lot. Set CP like you want. After that all of us check if it is balanced and this values can be changed any time.