3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[Hinin]

Finally for today, the Siege table (one of the most easiest to do).
Have a good night everyone, and see you next time !

 

[adan_eslavo]

Updated Few things in descriptions. Look at MChurch. What do we do with this faith bonus listing problem we talked?
Do we need some tweaks for existing units approved? I would add them tomorrow.

 

[Hinin]

It can be done after finishing the project as a patch to it. We don't want to force people to use EE. And making now analisys about EE when we are not quite sure how basic UC is balanced is unnecessary complication. Without this I have enough work with balance . And I haven't yet started on new UC (shame on me).

I agree : as much as I like EE, it is not the time.
Do not be ashamed : you are the one with the most UCs disponible. It's normal that you alternate production and reflection phases.

Not to derail the military unit discussion, but have you guys checked out the Latifundium from Uighur_Caesar's Rome? I think it will make a fantastic addition t the 4UC, with just minor tweaks to how the resource spawning works and the yields

@FoxOfWar, I'm glad you like the Latifundium, but I don't deserve credit for it. That's basically lifted wholesale from what Uighur did in his mod.
@adan_eslavo for the TBW, I like the idea of it being the best knight, so I think keeping the increased cost is a good thing. You haven't played on the "Tug Banner" part of the unit, what if it gave a 5-10% bonus to all units in a 2 tile radius that stacked with GG, and was lost on upgrade?

Latifundium : Very good idea (thank you for having found it ) ! Imagine what a "God of the Sun" Rome with that and some Wheat field could do !
TBW : For me, there is a main problem with you idea : it looks very much like a weaker and short-timed version of the Swedish UA (more powerful general effect), even if I agree that synergizing the TBW with the Khan is a good pist. I also think we should keep the higher cost (the Yassa court is here to mitigate that).

1. There will be horseman replacement (Persia, Assyria?),
2. Conquistador has all promos lost, like elephant
3. TBW has +15 vs wounded (not 25). Yeah it look bland. We definitely need to add something. And I made it more expensive. For what?
4. Panzer... I didn't know it is so weak. Only +1 move and armor plating for modern unit? Compare it to Hakkapeliitta f.e.
5. Many knights I can see.

I updated the table. Thank you for your corrections.

 

[Hinin]

Updated Few things in descriptions. Look at MChurch. What do we do with this faith bonus listing problem we talked?
Do we need some tweaks for existing units approved? I would add them tomorrow.

MC : If it is not ready, better not implementing it yet. However, I've followed this idea, and I approve it totally (it is very unique and stays logical).
Other MCs : I would gladly test them in the next days, but you do what you want (once again, I prefer you to be at your full capacity, and so to not feel rushed whatsoever).

Have all a good day.

 

[pineappledan]

Added Hinin's Siege Summary to Spreadsheet. Everyone should be able to edit it now

Added description for possible ballista build:
Ballista - Roman Catapult Replacement

Spoiler :

6CS (up from 4)
14RCS (up from 12)
No siege inaccuracy (full dmg vs land units)
-25% vs naval
moves as FULL speed in enemy territory (unlike other siege weapons which move at 1/2)
Cover I (+25% vs ranged attacks)
Accuracy I (+5% RCS, +10 RCS vs enemies >50HP)

The only thing it carries forward is accuracy I, but the main things that set ballistae apart were that they were much more accurate and much more portable than catapults, which are the two things that the siege line promotions debuff.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I will probably do some additional balance updates and leave new UCs for later time. It's time to post all of that stuff that stacked a bit.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Ballista looks fine, and yeah I noticed the Latifundia was from another mod - but hey, if it works it works right?

 

[Jarula]

Damn pity u guys aren't down with my Rome... I was working on using the same unit.

 

[Blue Ghost]

@Blue Ghost is making Assyria's chariot a horseman replacement. I have some ideas for him below:
IRON CHARIOT - Assyrian Horseman replacement

Spoiler :

Available at Military theory
17 CS (up from 15, same as elephant)
4 Moves
Shock I promotion (+10CS, +25% flanking)
Armour plating I promotion (+25% when defending)
25% Penalty vs cities (Same as cataphract, returns to 33% on upgrade)
Rough Terrain Penalty (Loses movement in rough terrain, same as all other chariots)
Can move after attacking
Does not require Horses

Other possible promotions:
Fury of Nergal: +10% CS for every adjacent enemy unit
Charge I: +10% CS in open terrain, +25% vs wounded

Gotta give at least a small buff vs. cities. It is Assyria after all. @Blue Ghost, do you think that removing the horse requirement would properly mitigate the rough terrain penalty?

I had it at just Shock I and Armor Plating I. I think that with those promotions, 16 CS would be enough. The base Horseman is already very powerful, and with Armor Plating it'll be very difficult to take down.
25% penalty vs. cities sounds fine. It's a small buff that wouldn't cost much to add.
I really don't like the rough terrain penalty on a replacement for a unit that doesn't have it by default. It really diminishes the utility of the horseman.
I think two promotions plus the smaller city penalty is enough for a Horseman replacement, and it doesn't need any more.

 

[Jarula]

Fury of nergal... So cool drop the reduced city attack add that.

Oh and adding the Latifundia from that mod ok but needs to be reworked. I tried working on that. Should add for all plantation resources should prolly grant +1 culture food to nearby farms and plantations

Oh and trying to see maybe the Russian modder on steam would be interested in a mega mod adding fundamentalism as another ideology.

 

[pineappledan]

I had it at just Shock I and Armor Plating I. I think that with those promotions, 16 CS would be enough. The base Horseman is already very powerful, and with Armor Plating it'll be very difficult to take down.
25% penalty vs. cities sounds fine. It's a small buff that wouldn't cost much to add.[...]

[...]I think two promotions plus the smaller city penalty is enough for a Horseman replacement, and it doesn't need any more.

I agree, 17CS is the realm of the the war elephant, and you don't want to match it or else the war elephant is chopped liver. 16 is good

If you were to go with the "nergal" promotion, I would drop armor plating.
If you were to add charge, I would drop shock.
I didn't mean to imply you should take everything, and I agree that 2 promotions +the reduced city penalty is a sweet-spot.
"Nergal" would be nice because, while it can be semi-defensive, it has a much higher risk/reward feel to it. I feel like this would fit Assyria's motif of being a high-risk civ. You're either a high-roller or you're dead.

I really don't like the rough terrain penalty on a replacement for a unit that doesn't have it by default. It really diminishes the utility of the horseman.

I know you've been saying this for a while, and while I can see where you're coming from it's still a chariot; the penalty is part and parcel with the unit model. That's why I suggested removing the strategics requirement, since it's trading one utility for another.

It would make more sense to me to go back to the drawing board and think of a different unit than to undercut the chariot as a unit model. At 16CS the war chariot compares more favorably with the war elephant, which only has 3 moves, if that makes it an easier conceptual pill to swallow.

Oh and adding the Latifundia from that mod ok but needs to be reworked. I tried working on that. Should add for all plantation resources should prolly grant +1 culture food to nearby farms and plantations

I added 1 point of culture at an early tech for an upgrade, and added +1 food to adjacent farms. culture on farms would be too strong, I think. 25 turns also struck me as just a bit too quick for that free resource, so I increased that a tad in my own proposal as well

 

[Jarula]

Na. Definitely needs the culture... To nearby farms and plantations they need it the way it stands is too weak.

Honestly though I still think what I started coding sounds better but that's just me. At least Latifundia should be very high culture prod and gold yields if placed on resources. Which would be cool.

 

[pineappledan]

well, continue what you were coding if you are that opposed to it. If we don't like it then we'll go back and change it; there's plenty of work to do in the meantime.

Still shaky on what exactly you intend to code. your previous posts gave no actual numbers, no actual method by which you intend to combine great diplomats and great generals, and no rationale for how the AI might cope with these changes.

You hinted you had decided to use the Ballista, but gave no numbers, promotions, or anything for us to critique

 

[Jarula]

My plan is this ugp Praetor replaces great general and magistrate basically great general provides combat bonus to nearby units

Plops down Latifundia instead of citadel or embassy.

UB Curia replaces council provides +5 culture scaling with era whenever building created and provides +5 gdp (Praetor points) per Curia in empire

Latifundia +2g +2p +2c replaces citadel and embassy goes up +1 +1 +1 twice and grants +1 c +1 f to nearby farms and plantations and culture bombs.

This makes highly aggressive Rome and the lack of citadel's and embassy's weaken their diplomatic and defensive means if they lose their edge they can and will implode.

This means Rome basically through expanding can lay down Latifundia their economy feeds imperialistic aggression which in turn feeds economy.

Ballistas were Greek in fact aside from the legions not much was new what made them strong was organization.

The synergy of my proposal works good with Rome meaning the ai can use it. And the scariness of the unique unit feeds their aggressive nature throughout the game.

And researched the Curia the ancient Roman Curia we're basically the same as the forums they were societal backbones where inheritance was decided as well as other things. That was why the papacy named their administrative buildings after the ancient Roman Curia.

Not one time have people modded the Curia for Rome which when you research Rome is huge.

The other idea is campus Marius the unique wonder.

I coded for Praetor to use great general logic.

 

[pineappledan]

Would Latifundia add to supply cap like citadels do?

Would Latifundia be upgraded by the same policies which upgrade citadels?

Since the Fale already is a council replacement which grants yields on building construction, should one of these two council replacements be changed to differentiate the two from each other?

the +1 culture and +1 food on farms makes much more sense if it's a GP replacement. I'm worried that the AI will not plant these with much concern over whether or not they are in workable range of a city.

Are there resources for the praetor and curia, or do you think they will have to be made?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Sorry for closing and reopening few topics on @pineappledan 's google file. I was just learning using app on phone.

 

[Jarula]

Praetor can use great diplomat skin

Curia can use the Solaris skin

Adds same unit supply as citadel but instead of same upgrades does not base yields of 2 2 2 then becoming 3 3 3 and 4 4 4 then 5 5 5 needs no upgrade if I'm correct. Plus the bonus to nearby plantations and farms makes it more than strong but no defensive bonus.

 

[De_Genius]

Just a small update from me.

I seem to have hit a wall with the Goedendag unit. I cannot for my life seem to inject a pikeman replacement unit for the Netherlands.
Nothing I do seem to work.
I have tried to go as basic as I can. Nothing...
I have tried to insert the exact code and assets from the JFD mod. Nothing...
I have tried to use more or less the same exact code from my Langskib. Nothing..



If someone has a guide to SQLLite for debugging or a pikeman template for a blank unit, I would appreciate it a lot.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Just a small update from me.

I seem to have hit a wall with the Goedendag unit. I cannot for my life seem to inject a pikeman replacement unit for the Netherlands.
Nothing I do seem to work.
I have tried to go as basic as I can. Nothing...
I have tried to insert the exact code and assets from the JFD mod. Nothing...
I have tried to use more or less the same exact code from my Langskib. Nothing..



If someone has a guide to SQLLite for debugging or a pikeman template for a blank unit, I would appreciate it a lot.

Could you attach a current version of your mod? I could look at it tonight.

 

[pineappledan]

@Blue Ghost could you sticky this spreadsheet to the OP? I think it will help with organizing the project by topic, rather than by straight chronology