3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[adan_eslavo]

@pineppledan Where did you get art and models for holkan, pairidaeza and pitz? I want to add credits.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I haven’t played Venice lately, but observations from more experienced players indicate that it is not at all underpowered, at least in the player’s hands. So the premise that Venice needs stronger UCs may not be accurate.

 

[pineappledan]

Pairidaeza is by Lastsword
Holkan model is by Danrell (it's the Mayan swordsman model)
Holkan and Pitz icons I believe are Mikeburnfire

@Blue Ghost would it be possible to set Hashemite as a mounted unit instead of armor? I think all that's needed is to set IsMounted to 'true' in the sql

 

[Blue Ghost]

Pairidaeza is by Lastsword
Holkan model is by Danrell (it's the Mayan swordsman model)
Holkan and Pitz icons I believe are Mikeburnfire

@Blue Ghost would it be possible to set Hashemite as a mounted unit instead of armor? I think all that's needed is to set IsMounted to 'true' in the sql

Should be, yeah. I’ll do that if it’s not already done.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Pairidaeza is by Lastsword
Holkan model is by Danrell (it's the Mayan swordsman model)
Holkan and Pitz icons I believe are Mikeburnfire

@Blue Ghost would it be possible to set Hashemite as a mounted unit instead of armor? I think all that's needed is to set IsMounted to 'true' in the sql

I cannot find pairidaeza in last swords civs.

There's also IsMechanized or Mechanized column and it is probably reserved for armored units.

 

[pineappledan]

Should be, yeah. I’ll do that if it’s not already done.

I believe I have the most up to date version installed. No changes on combat class from the anti-tank unit class

I cannot find pairidaeza in last swords civs.

It's from the Mughal mod, it's called the Charbagh garden in that mod

 

[adan_eslavo]

I believe I have the most up to date version installed. No changes on combat class from the anti-tank unit class

It's from the Mughal mod, it's called the Charbagh garden in that mod

Picture on wiki must be out of date. Thank you.

 

[pineappledan]

I have now added all 43 civs to the 4UC by civilizations spreadsheet
I have added and updated the 4UC spreadsheet to the best of my ability
I have contacted @CrazyG, @ElliotS, and @Owlbebach to advise on balance.

While I was updating the spreadsheet a few things jumped out at me:
FRANCE - Grande Ecole has too many things going on, and it too complicated. It's also much more powerful than the Skola

• Should remove the 1GSP
• Should reduce base science yield on building to 3 (currently at 5)
• Should remove the extra science specialist slot. The Skola gives a bonus slot as well, and it would help differentiate the two

OTTOMANS - Tersane is incredibly powerful, and once again has too much going on

• Should drop one of the 3 ocean tile yields to (currently is +1 Food/Gold/Prod from ocean tiles)
• Should reduce trade route gold yield back to the base 2/2 (currently is 3/3)

MONGOLIA - On paper at least, the Yassa court looks incredibly powerful, and too similar to China's UA

• Should reduce the military unit production bonus to just 10% (currently 20%)
• The WLTKD on conquest could be replaced with an instant production or food boost. Or shortened to 5 turns. As it is now, it's just way too close to China's WLTED

BABYLON - I think the Sabum Kibitum should be reduced to 11 CP.

• The hoplite has the highest at 13, but it has rather lackluster promotions besides. The kibitum in comparison is very fast, and potentially devastating with the legacy promotion.
• It would be funny if we also increased the immortal's CP to 12. The Persians conquered the Babylonians and the Greeks conquered the Persians. The spearman CPs could increase by 1 for each "successor". It's weird that we gave more CP to Kibitum than Immortal and same as Hoplite, in addition to an extra move

ASSYRIA - I think it would be nice if the chariot didn't require horses. It would help make the chariot more "core", since you could build more.

• This would better reflect IRL Assyrian war tactics
• It would also soften the blow of having the rough terrain penalty on the horseman replacement

ASSYRIA - I really, truly, deeply feel that the Lamassu Gate UB needs a GWWriting slot.

• The building is 2 full tech levels before the first building with a GWork slot. Thats more than enough time to get a GWriter out, but you'd have nowhere to put it

SPAIN - Hinin noted that the Conquistador has no promotions which stay on upgrade. Maybe we could set the +2 vision to remain on upgrade?

CARTHAGE - I'm going to reduce the Tophet culture to +1 and the food consumption to -1. That much culture is too early.

CHINA - I'm still very uneasy about having so much defense on the Xiafan Guanjun in addition to supply. If supply is in the mix then the CP should be reduced to maybe 27, it's just way too hard to kill that thing

CHINA - A recent patch removed paper from Chanceries, but the exam hall still has paper. This might not be a bad thing, but it makes exam halls very powerful right now.

@Blue Ghost could you edit the OP to remove the link to mine and De_Genius' sections? Both of our work has been rolled into Adan's at this point, so if someone comes and tries to test our mod they will be confused.

changes to Venice now uploaded:
base yield of laguna changed to +2 gold, +2 culture (was +1 gold, same as base harbor)
added +1 food to river tiles

 

[adan_eslavo]

I have now added all 43 civs to the 4UC by civilizations spreadsheet
I have added and updated the 4UC spreadsheet to the best of my ability
I have contacted @CrazyG, @ElliotS, and @Owlbebach to advise on balance.

While I was updating the spreadsheet a few things jumped out at me:
- Grande Ecole has too many things going on, and it too complicated. It's also much more powerful than the Skola

• Should remove the 1GSP
• Should reduce base science yield on building to 3 (currently at 5)
• Should remove the extra science specialist slot. The Skola gives a bonus slot as well, and it would help differentiate the two

- Tersane is incredibly powerful, and once again has too much going on

• Should drop one of the 3 ocean tile yields to (currently is +1 Food/Gold/Prod from ocean tiles)
• Should reduce trade route gold yield back to the base 2/2 (currently is 3/3)

- On paper at least, the Yassa court looks incredibly powerful, and too similar to China's UA

• Should reduce the military unit production bonus to just 10% (currently 20%)
• The WLTKD on conquest could be replaced with an instant production or food boost. Or shortened to 5 turns. As it is now, it's just way too close to China's WLTED

@Blue Ghost could you edit the OP to remove the link to mine and De_Genius' sections? Both of our work has been rolled into Adan's at this point, so if someone comes and tries to test our mod they will be confused.

changes to Venice now uploaded:
base yield of laguna changed to +2 gold, +2 culture (was +1 gold, same as base harbor)
added +1 food to river tiles

• Your suggestion for Yassa balance is exactly what I created in first version of it. Then people said it was underpowered so we decided to buff those 2 things. I wil go back to 5 wltkd turns. i will also add game speed scaler. 5 will be on fast.
• Tersane wasn't tested in game. No one played Ottomans so I would rather wait for first game impresions. I will reduce food from ocean anyways and trade bonus.
• Grande Ecole was underpowered. It worked well in last @Hinin's playtest but I know he is French so it will always be . It was also buffed few times until we a got final version. It is different from skola. 5s was trick to recompensate culture boost and science from each citizen. Specialist thing isn't so much powerful because france has ui to spend ppl on. I think we can reduce it to 1 specialist and delete 1gsp and test more.
• I will look into sKibitum.
• I will check what can be done for conquistador.

 

[pineappledan]

Your suggestion for Yassa balance is exactly what I created in first version of it. Then people said it was underpowered so we decided to buff those 2 things.

Fair 'nuff. That was before the bug fix that prevented the unhappiness reduction from working though

Tersane wasn't tested in game. No one played Ottomans so I would rather wait for first game impressions. I will reduce food from ocean anyways.

K. Didn't foxofwar take them for a spin a while back? I'm starting up an iroquois game, but i'll add ottomans to it

Grande Ecole was underpowered. It worked well in last @Hinin's playtest. It was also buffed few times until we a got final version.

If I recall, Hinin dropped the game at late industrial, so he didn't have much game time with the building. It seems like the boosts to specialist yields are the big hitter on that building, the extra slot and GSP seemed trivial

 

[Hinin]

FRANCE - Grande Ecole has too many things going on, and it too complicated. It's also much more powerful than the Skola

• Should remove the 1GSP
• Should reduce base science yield on building to 3 (currently at 5)
• Should remove the extra science specialist slot. The Skola gives a bonus slot as well, and it would help differentiate the two

Grande Ecole was underpowered. It worked well in last @Hinin's playtest but I know he is French so it will always be . It was also buffed few times until we a got final version. It is different from skola. 5s was trick to recompensate culture boost and science from each citizen. Specialist thing isn't so much powerful because france has ui to spend ppl on. I think we can reduce it to 1 specialist and delete 1gsp and test more.

If I recall, Hinin dropped the game at late industrial, so he didn't have much game time with the building. It seems like the boosts to specialist yields are the big hitter on that building, the extra slot and GSP seemed trivial

To be frank (ahah... puns), as pineappledan said, I wasn't able to fully experiment the power of the Grande École, since my game was terminated by an overdominant China before I entered the modern era or get my ideology. I agree that the current GE has too much going for it, and that the +1 scientist specialist is bland because identical to what Sweden has.
As a suggestion, is it possible to create a building which would appear in the city when the GEcole is constructed, and would give an engineer specialist ? That would de facto give to the GE one scientist specialist and one engineer specialist. If you agree with this idea, I have ideas for the name of the building (you can have "Les Mines", "Polytechique", "Ponts et chaussées", "Central" and others).

BABYLON - I think the Sabum Kibitum should be reduced to 11 CP.

• The hoplite has the highest at 13, but it has rather lackluster promotions besides. The kibitum in comparison is very fast, and potentially devastating with the legacy promotion.
• It would be funny if we also increased the immortal's CP to 12. The Persians conquered the Babylonians and the Greeks conquered the Persians. The spearman CPs could increase by 1 for each "successor". It's weird that we gave more CP to Kibitum than Immortal and same as Hoplite, in addition to an extra move

I agree fully with your idea.

ASSYRIA - I think it would be nice if the chariot didn't require horses. It would help make the chariot more "core", since you could build more.

• This would better reflect IRL Assyrian war tactics
• It would also soften the blow of having the rough terrain penalty on the horseman replacement

You already know I'm with you on this one : the one to convince is Blue Ghost, and it won't be easy.

ASSYRIA - I really, truly, deeply feel that the Lamassu Gate UB needs a GWWriting slot.

• The building is 2 full tech levels before the first building with a GWork slot. Thats more than enough time to get a GWriter out, but you'd have nowhere to put it

Once again, +1

SPAIN - Hinin noted that the Conquistador has no promotions which stay on upgrade. Maybe we could set the +2 vision to remain on upgrade?

Good idea.

CHINA - I'm still very uneasy about having so much defense on the Xiafan Guanjun in addition to supply. If supply is in the mix then the CP should be reduced to maybe 27, it's just way too hard to kill that thing

I think the "Broadside" promotion you suggested would be good in exchange of the CP reduction. I would also suggest dropping the "Supply" promotion, since the Sea Beggar already has it in this era, and that the Kowtow promotion can already allow you to heal in distant lands (by befriending CSs) : maybe giving "Medic I" instead would be better ?

Your suggestion for Yassa balance is exactly what I created in first version of it. Then people said it was underpowered so we decided to buff those 2 things. I wil go back to 5 wltkd turns. i will also add game speed scaler. 5 will be on fast.

The problem I have is that +10 % production is really not much (compare it to the +25 % production for melee infantry and +50 % pr for melee ships from the Runestone) : I think we should lower/scale the WLTKD, but keep the production bonus.

Tersane wasn't tested in game. No one played Ottomans so I would rather wait for first game impresions. I will reduce food from ocean anyways and trade bonus.

I'll do an Ottoman playtest in the next days. For now, I'm having a blast playing as India.

PS : I may like the GE, but I'm not the only one fond with my country : after all, I'm not the one who thought the Polish horsemen were so powerful they could serve as ships.

 

[adan_eslavo]

PS : I may like the GE, but I'm not the only one fond with my country : after all, I'm not the one who think the Polish horsemen are so powerful they can serve as ships.

• You're right, that's why I shouldn't test Poland on my own. :] But if you have further balance suggestions towards Polish units, go on. That would not be the first time I nerf it :/
  
• I didn't hear before this sentence about polish ships. Is it quote from something? (if some user said that then sorry for stupid question. I'm just curious). It is not coincidence that almost all civ 5 custom civilizations and original one have horse UU.
  
• Immortals actually have 12 CP? Checked in SQLiteSpy.
  
• You suggested some time ago Agora rework or substitute. Do you think it is still up to date?

I'm working on rewriting my main post. Don't look there for few hours.

• Pogost lacks market's tourism boost after finishing tr. Going to readd it,
• Qila looks terrifying after my visual rework of the window. I will revert military changes to defaul (maybe HP, Defense, Supply),
• Baan Chang lacks Engineer Specialist in the description. Tell if now it is ok or I need to change something. We didn't count it before,
• Langskib is too powerful (drop Medic II?)

Ok, main post ready. Enjoy. I hope it will be easier now to see what's going on with new UCs. I also added (I hope) all side changes in my part.

 

[pineappledan]

• Baan Chang lacks Engineer Specialist in the description. Tell if now it is ok or I need to change something. We didn't count it before,

Oops! lol, yeah it should definitely have that! I think it's still good with that. We'll see what people say when they test it

• Langskib is too powerful (drop Medic II?)

All that dropping medic II will do is make you have to invest use the first promotion to get medic II. That's not a bad thing, at least it will slow them down a bit.

• Immortals actually have 12 CP? Checked in SQLiteSpy.

Yup! I just checked the SQL as well. you're right. In vanilla they were only 11, so i was just wrong there.

I really like the stuff you've added. There's a lot of polish here.

• The Aztec dummy promotion is a great touch, a good quality of life thing
• changing the nau to carrack, getting things set up for the language mod. great!
• The maya's unique 20 turn mechanic is so different and interesting, I can't wait! We this mod now has 4 different mechanics that it is introducing to VP
  • bonuses from CS gifts instead of "allied" status
  • the K'atun 20 turn mechanic
  • the debuff/delayed effect mechanic (greek fire, maim, etc.)
  • bonus resource spawning (vs luxury resource spawning)

I was talking with ElliotS, and he suggested the ottoman cannon is too straightforward right now. He suggested the cannon could damage itself every time it fired, and do 350%-450% vs cities. maybe 30 dmg every time it fires. this would be a reference to the fact that these cannons could only be fired every 12 hours or else they would literally melt themselves. You'd only get 2 good shots out of it then before it was forced to heal
Another idea is we could give them the old siege "set up for attack". I think it's a bit weird that these massive cannons can move and shoot in the same turn, if in friendly or neutral territory

 

[adan_eslavo]

Oops! lol, yeah it should definitely have that! I think it's still good with that. We'll see what people say when they test it

All that dropping medic II will do is make you have to invest use the first promotion to get medic II. That's not a bad thing, at least it will slow them down a bit.

I was talking with ElliotS, and he suggested the ottoman cannon is too straightforward right now. He suggested the cannon could damage itself every time it fired, and do 350%-450% vs cities. maybe 30 dmg every time it fires. this would be a reference to the fact that these cannons could only be fired every 12 hours or else they would literally melt themselves. You'd only get 2 good shots out of it then before it was forced to heal
Another idea is we could give them the old siege "set up for attack". I think it's a bit weird that these massive cannons can move and shoot in the same turn, if in friendly or neutral territory

Nice idea. I will melt them up.

What about giving conquistador Scouting I and II (+2 visibility which stays on upgrade) instead of flat +2 which will not stay?

 

[pineappledan]

What about giving conquistador Scouting I and II (+2 visibility which stays on upgrade) instead of flat +2 which will not stay?

For sure. It would be nice to have something to carry forward. And it would stack with their sentry promotion, lol. Now if only we could figure out what to do with those elephants...

 

[IcyAngel]

Allow me a few balance observations. (Info taken from the 4UCs spreadsheet, in alphabetical order.)

America

Spoiler :

Monitor feels on the weakish side (but then all melee ships do after getting spoiled by the Armada? ); I like both the Monitor and Hampton Roads promotions, though I'd make Monitor apply when stationed in the city too. Alternatively, a free generic melee ship promotion would do on top of Cover 1.

Assyria

Spoiler :

Agree with the GWofW on the UB.

Horse-free Iron Chariot is a big NO; the Horseman is leaps and bounds stronger than everything in Ancient and Classical - an army of improved Horsemen, particularly in AI hands with its increased supply, would translate into unstoppable rampage. I do prefer Fury of Nergal to Armor Plating.

Austria

Spoiler :

Yorskscher Marsch is too weak this late into the game; what about +3 culture? Perhaps make Imperial Vigilance apply in friendly CS territory too, to differentiate it more from Homeland Guardian.

Aztecs

Spoiler :

+5 exp on the Huey Teocalli is too much considering how many Golden Ages the Aztecs get. I agree with +3.

Babylon

Spoiler :

The Sabum Kibitum is very strong when it comes out, but loses a lot of its power when upgraded considering it loses the +1 movement and Legacy is weak in AI hands (because it throws away its units). Remove 1 CS if anything.)

Byzantium

Spoiler :

The Hippodrome is all over the place? Remove the gold and culture on palace, and I'd grant +2 horses as baseline. Option 2 is too weak, I'd replace it or multiply the WLTKD length by 1.5 or 2x.

Love the Dromon btw! Greek Fire is an amazing promotion.

Carthage

Spoiler :

Tophet description is incomplete, so cannot comment. I like the concept of the Shofet! A bit weak, but considering how strong Carthage is at baseline its fine.

Celts

Spoiler :

8 CS on the Scythed Chariot seems like too little? I'd have to test it first -because the unit has a lot going on-, but with Rough Terrain Penalty I feel the unit is hindered enough already. Make it 9 maybe?

I'll play a Celts game and come back to this.

China

Spoiler :

The Xiafan Guanjun has got two great promotions already, so pumping its CS to the sky is a bit much. What about making it 27 or 28?

No matter what you do, remove the paper on Examination Hall. Way too strong!

Dutch

Spoiler :

The Waag is insanely strong; at this point in the game you're basically guaranteed to be trading 10 luxuries, so this building really is +20% GPP and +20 CS at baseline. The other bonuses aren't particularly strong however, so I'm wary about nerfing the incremental part too much. What about capping at +15, and increasing the gold bonus to markets to +3?

edit: actually, maybe %20 GPP and 15 CS would be fine.

Ethiopia

Spoiler :

I hate Ethiopia. This was a service announcement.



(Love the UI and the Maim promotion btw! Very cool.)

France

Spoiler :

Grande École is too strong, but you guys know this already. Personally I'd remove the added baseline culture and promotion, one of the scientist specialists and the GS point. As was floated already, maybe add an engineeer specialist instead?

Germany

Spoiler :

Bismarck is going to be a terror!

I can see the Slaganz snowballing terribly on Deity with the AI's numerous free units, but that's really a difficulty-specific problem so. I love the city-states flavor.

Teutonic Order is conceptually amazing -nobody expects the German inquisition!- but too strong in context. Oncer Germany hits Hanses, the clock starts ticking at a ridiculous pace; the UB is balanced around Germany not having a good early game and being easy to take out, but with the Warrior replacement AND +10 CS on every Barracks, a building that comes very early... I can see Germany's snowballing becoming unstoppable, having no weaknesses altogether (particularly considering how easier it will be to get early CS friends/allies with Druthtiz Oath).

It pains me to say this, but imo the two uniques together are simply misplaced. I'd definitely nerf the CS to 5 anyway (makes the unique by itself weak, but the overall civ more balanced).

England

Spoiler :

White Tower has got missing descriptions. Love the historical concept of the UU!

Greece

Spoiler :

Objectively the Agora is on the weak side, but considering how strong Greece is early-mid game in base VP I'm more than fine with the current iteration.

 

[pineappledan]

Thanks for the input @IcyAngel

• I've fixed England's and Carthage's UB descriptions
• Grande ecole has been adjusted
• Sabum Kibitum has been adjusted
• I agree that scythed chariot CP could be buffed
• I agree that Xiafan Guanjun is too unkillable
• I don't think the yorkscher marsch needs to go anywhere. Sometimes little bonuses are there just for flavor, instead of having to dictate playstyle. Carolean's grenadier promotion for instance is pretty ****, but it's insteresting

Waiting with baited breath on your opinions for the rest!

 

[IcyAngel]

Huns

Spoiler :

I'd make the Looting promotion scale with eras, considering how rarely one razes cities. The UU feels a bit weak overall. I'd make it cost LESS than the Horseman, not more. (Actually, this is a good candidate for being horse-free; give it 13-14 CP, 10 less production and you're good to go. Makes it more of a "support" military unit, in flavour with its two promotions.)

The UB's GA on successful demand is a fabulous idea! Dat flavour.

Inca

Spoiler :

I'd make the Coca monopoly give 10% CS to units standing on mountains too. Otherwise, love both UUs!

India

Spoiler :

The Dhanuraashi could be a 6/7 imo.

Indonesia

Spoiler :

What is the purpose of the Prau? Seems exploration themed (Sentry, Slipstream, +2 movement) but in that case you hardly need more than 2, maybe 3 of them... and in combat it's hardly more than a generic Trireme (Slipstream isn't useful in combat this early on, because your unit is unlikely to be surrounded by ships and unable to move). It's a bit too generic/unspecific.

I love the Kampong though!

Korea

Spoiler :

Kobukseon is insane! How about +25 production and 33 CS? To start.

Mongolia

Spoiler :

I played a Mongolia game before the Black Tug was nerfed and thought it was fine at 30 CS actually, though Mongolia is at baseline very strong so maybe 28 CS is warranted.

For my playstyle the Yassa Court is weak; I rarely hard build units past the early game (I keep my units for a long time and buy the rest), and once I have discovered most civilizations my cities are in more-or-less permanent WLTKD anyway from trading luxuries. I presume this is significantly better in AI hands though, and every human plays differently too so who knows.

Morocco

Spoiler :

I love the Corsair's flavour! Especially Barbary Pirate.
Would benefit from increased movement when in territory of another civ without open borders; would allow the unit to reach and plunder a trade-route and back out without becoming a barbarian. Just throwing the idea out there.

The Riad is carried entirely by its GPP on trade-route completion, which I don't mind; I'd up the food on oases to +3 however, which is really a flavour bonus as oases are rare.

Ottomans

Spoiler :

Amazing flavour and concepts again! Nothing to say about balance. Tersane's bonuses to ocean tiles alone make it great.

Persia

Spoiler :

I would remove the gold maintenance on Pairidaeza; the bonuses to Guilds appear stronger than they are because they apply only 9 times in total, and likely in 3 cities only.

Poland

Spoiler :

The Polish terror with their unsiegeable cities. NotLikeThis

Polynesia

Spoiler :

The scout replacement is odd, as it's clearly meant to partake in combat but it has access to zero combat promotions on leveling-up. Not sure what to think.

The Fale Tel'e is good but I'm worried about giving Polynesia more early game bonuses (the Moai and UA do a banging job at that already). Will have to see how the AI performs with it I guess.

Portugal

Spoiler :

My reaction on seeing the Cacadores: Love it.

Siam

Spoiler :

Help me understand the Baan Chang: if I'm receiving, say, 15 horses in total from three cities states, am I getting +15g and 15p on every Baan Chang, or +3g and +3p? In the first case, it's insanely overpowered, and in the second case too weak.

Songhai

Spoiler :

Isn't the Mud Pyramid Mosque weak? It gets +1 faith, +2 culture and +10% prod to culture? For 50 less production. Feels a bit like a filler.

Spain

Spoiler :

Armada's Invincible promotion is highly abusable in player hands; it's easy to station all your Armadas in a remote enemy costal city and let them promote into behemoths. I'd remove the promotion, as the unit is already very strong as is.

Also, the Hacienda cannot be built next to a city without an adjacent luxury (I know you just didn't update the spreadsheet, as the description is correct ingame).

Venice

Spoiler :

I feel like the Laguna is out of place; first of all, Venice hardly gets to choose its city locations therefore the yields on river tiles and atolls are a bit too specific; also (and I say this as someone who never plays Venice but often forces them into their games as an AI), Venice only goes wide when it's stomping and conquering a lot - which isn't too common. Usually, it'll stay around 4-5 cities at most. In that sense, the yields per Laguna in the empire will tend to prove underwhelming.

I think the two UUs are an interesting concept, but easily misimplemented; will have to test them to give accurate feedback.

Zulus

Spoiler :

Why culture for GW of Music on the Iziko? Feels random, and GWoM come the latest so the bonus won't come online for a long time. The building overall feels weak, but God knows the Zulus don't need a buff.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Babylon

Spoiler :

The Sabum Kibitum is very strong when it comes out, but loses a lot of its power when upgraded considering it loses the +1 movement and Legacy is weak in AI hands (because it throws away its units). Remove 1 CS if anything.)

Any idea how to make it live longer, but not invincible? It will have Quick Study still so getting next levels of Legacy shouldn't be a problem. I think in VP units are taught to run away from battlefield if possible. It's not their fault that people focus on some units more. We cannot teach AI the same.

Byzantium

Spoiler :

The Hippodrome is all over the place? Remove the gold and culture on palace, and I'd grant +2 horses as baseline. Option 2 is too weak, I'd replace it or multiply the WLTKD length by 1.5 or 2x.

Love the Dromon btw! Greek Fire is an amazing promotion.

I added flat 4 horses for now. Events are not in game yet.

Celts

Spoiler :

8 CS on the Scythed Chariot seems like too little? I'd have to test it first -because the unit has a lot going on-, but with Rough Terrain Penalty I feel the unit is hindered enough already. Make it 9 maybe?

I'll play a Celts game and come back to this.

I can easily rise it up to 10 or 12 if 8 is too low. Remember that when we though about this unit for the first time I remember calls: "5 dmg? It's killer!!!". Now I rised it to 8.

Dutch

Spoiler :

The Waag is insanely strong; at this point in the game you're basically guaranteed to be trading 10 luxuries, so this building really is +20% GPP and +20 CS at baseline. The other bonuses aren't particularly strong however, so I'm wary about nerfing the incremental part too much. What about capping at +15, and increasing the gold bonus to markets to +3?

For now dummy building give 2gpp/2d per trait (10 max). I can make it 1/2(7)=7/14 and +3g to market.

Ethiopia

Spoiler :

I hate Ethiopia. This was a service announcement.



(Love the UI and the Maim promotion btw! Very cool.)

Couldn't run from Shotel Swordsman?

France

Spoiler :

Grande École is too strong, but you guys know this already. Personally I'd remove the added baseline culture and promotion, one of the scientist specialists and the GS point. As was floated already, maybe add an engineeer specialist instead?

I reduced specialist back to 1 and deleted 1GSciP for now.

Greece

Spoiler :

Objectively the Agora is on the weak side, but considering how strong Greece is early-mid game in base VP I'm more than fine with the current iteration.

Yup. @Hinin suggested a while ago to change it completely because it looks bland. If you have an idea to add new flavor, go on. Maybe something from later era, like Klepht.

I made Great Bombard v2. How it works? I will show you:

Archers: "Pew, pew, pew"
Great Turkish Bombard: "Bang!!!"
/Crack!

 

[Jarula]

Anyone else drooling for a ynaemp civ game with these units?