3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[Ziad]

This is getting changed next patch, G has stated he’s going to rescale buildings
good idea. Science and gold on jungle it is!

As for the unit purchase bottlenecking, I don’t think that’s so bad. I also like it is an equal/opposite to the Polynesian Fale Tele, which gives yields on construction

I didn't know that! Fair enough.

Maybe just try to emulate Madrasah a bit and provide a larger bonus (double?) if a certain type of unit is bought? Maybe naval? Or just faith bought GPs (although that would tread on Madrasah a bit).

Anyway thanks for the quick feedback response.

 

[pineappledan]

what tiles should Nilometer spawn on? Some restrictions?

I vote anywhere, same as floating gardens

can be build if well is built?

I’d vote no. You can build anywhere, and I’d prefer to keep buffalo pound unique in this aspect

code has 1 maintenance for Nilometer, but excel says 2,

i would make it whatever the base water mill is.

Water mill is being changed next patch to 1/5
Well is being changed to 1/5.
Floating garden is being changed to 11/5. It is keeping its 1 on river, and of course its 3/3

To make nilometer and floating garden different, I would make nilometer 2/5, and take all tile bonuses away. Instead of bonuses on tile, it gives flax. On the building itself, I would make it 2/2/2

 

[Ziad]

Aren't Well and Watermill losing the mutual exclusivity next patch? I think they are.

Edit: Nope nevermind

Edit 2: Isn't flax already planned for Egypt? I thought the current bonuses were just a placeholder :O

 

[pineappledan]

I’m reasonably sure they are not. I think G intends to differentiate river cities from non-river by giving 1 a food focus and the other a production focus. Also the optics of removing their exclusivity would be too weird. What good would a water mill be without a river? Why would you dig a well when you have a perfectly good river?

 

[Ziad]

I’m reasonably sure they are not. I think G intends to differentiate river cities from non-river by giving 1 a good focus and the other a production focus. Also the optics of removing their exclusivity would be too weird. What good would a water mill be without a river? Why would you dig a well when you have a perfectly good river?

Yeah I misread Gazebo's post and had edited the post but I was too late

 

[adan_eslavo]

Egypt added to main post. Check it please (I need to update your recent thougths).

 

[pineappledan]

Current Egypt proposal, for the lazy

Spoiler :

UB - Nilometer (replaces Water Mill):

• no River requirement
• can be built if Well is in the city
• +2 Food, +2 Production and +2 Culture
• +2 Production for every 5 Citizen
• on construction 2 Flax Resources appear near the City

UR - Flax:

• bonus resource
• improved by plantation
• +1 Production and +1 Culture
• +2 Gold with Plantation

UI - Latifundia:

• improves Flax

B - Caravansary/UB - Egyptian Burial Tomb change:

• +1 Culture and +1 Gold to Flax

gazebo’s beta#2 post-relevant part. Seems I was wrong and it’s 1 for 5 pop, not 4

• Well/Watermill - now divided - Well generates +1f per 5 citizens, Watermill +1p per 5 citizens. Well base food now +2 (was +1)
  • These buildings scaled surprisingly well (ha), and needed a nerf. Also further differentiates for cities on/off rivers.
• Floating Gardens - now +1f/p per 5 citizens (was +2 per 5)

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan:

• could you take what I wrote in my main post and modify it to version you just wrote few posts earlier?
• same thing with Buffalo Pound. Do I need to update it?
• I meant Flax earlier. Where should it spawn? Grass + Plains with water source (I don't know if it is possible). You can make two variants.

 

[Ziad]

UI - Latifundia:

• improves Flax

Rome getting a disproportionate bonus (bonus building resources spawning from bonus building resources) for conquering Egyptian lands is hilariously historically accurate.

 

[pineappledan]

same thing with Buffalo Pound. Do I need to update it?

Definitely, otherwise it’s too OP. Make the scaler the same as base well, but everything else is the same

could you take what I wrote in my main post and modify it to version you just wrote few posts earlier?

Yup!
Edit: done!

I meant Flax earlier. Where should it spawn? Grass + Plains with water source (I don't know if it is possible). You can make two variants.

i think any unfeatured desert, floodplain, tundra, grassland or plain. That seems fair right? Is I possible to make it first search for river tiles for placement? That way it will always go for flood plains first

Rome getting a disproportionate bonus (bonus resources spawning from bonus resources spawning from luxury resources) for conquering Egyptian lands is hilariously historically accurate.

Not to sound too high on myself, but that was definitely intentional on my part

Regarding the science on building. After taking another look at the flax resource I think culture is a better idea. 2food/2prod/2 culture has my vote.

More elegant that way, fewer flavours, fewer different types of yields

 

[pineappledan]

Maybe just try to emulate Madrasah a bit and provide a larger bonus (double?) if a certain type of unit is bought? Maybe naval? Or just faith bought GPs (although that would tread on Madrasah a bit).

didnt see this before, sorry.

Madrasah scales by 10 per era, but science is less valuable than culture, and it’s only on faith purchases.

Provided you are not exclusively purchasing buildings, you should see tophet proc more often, but the separate price for GP purchases on madrasah was specifically to address how outrageous the prices on GPS are in relation to wverything else. I wouldn’t have asked BG to even bother, except that Arabia is so GP hungry that it felt like a snub not to give them more science.

A culture on naval purchase would be counter to the actual history, since the sailors were often ethnic phoenecians; it was the army that was composed of various mercenaries and client states.

 

[Ziad]

@pineappledan Isn't Madrasah 20 scaling with era?

"Whenever a Faith purchase is made in the city, gain 20 Science (or 100, if a Great Person is bought), scaling with era"

It's true that the faith purchase bit does make it weaker in general, so I agree that the comparison is not fair.

With regards to the flavor, I had thought the culture on purchase was supposed to be indicative of the expansionism (workers, fishing boats), trade (caravan, cargo ship), and diplomacy (emissaries etc..) as much as military, so the focus on mercenaries only isn't apt either I think. The bonus on naval would make sense in terms of expansionism and fits with their overall coastal focus theme.

Oooh maybe a huge bonus if you buy a trade unit Caravan/Cargo Ship?

Still, I see your general point. Perhaps making faith unit purchases apply would be enough, whether Missionary, Inquisitor, or GP. It wouldn't be too too significant but it would help avoid inconsistency and awkwardness with faith buying units. Also... the Tophet is a religious building after all

Not to sound too high on myself, but that was definitely intentional on my part

hahaha

 

[pineappledan]

Whenever a Faith purchase is made in the city, gain 20 Science (or 100, if a Great Person is bought), scaling with era"

I think it’s 10 scaling with era, but because madrasah first appears in medieval it “starts” at 20. @Blue Ghost can correct me on this if I am wrong.

It's true that the faith purchase bit does make it weaker in general, so I agree that the comparison is not fair.

Not unfair, just more complicated

Still, I see your general point. Perhaps making faith unit purchases apply would be enough...

more importantly, by the time you are in industrial, the tophet is salvaging 30XP on unit purchases. That is without wonders/policies/orders giving additional XP. That effect can be potentially huge. If the culture on purchase fades into obscurity at that point I’m happy with that; in fact I hope it does

@adan_eslavo i am incredibly dense . I finally get what you did with longbowmen:

Spoiler :

UM - Longbowman (replaces Crossbowman):

• 180 Production Cost
• 18 RCP
• 14 CP
• +1 Range (base range of 3, not arrived forward on upgrade)
• "Agincourt" (20% RCS/CS against Mounted/Armored Units)

... I don’t like it, but you probably knew I would say that. I much prefer abilities carry forward on units, and of course that would require increasing RCP to 21-22 to compensate for the -20% from the range promotion

What do others think?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Look now and check main post please (again, I know). I modified Buffalo Pound and Egypt.

 

[pineappledan]

Looks great! With that +2 food on Wells now, and how much earlier they are vs water mills I can’t help but think river cities are getting nerfed pretty bad this patch

For clarity, is khopesh “mercy” the melee equivalent of coup de grace? (+30% vs units below 50HP)

I like the name, lol

 

[adan_eslavo]

Yup.

 

[Ziad]

K now you have me pumped to play Egypt.

Work harder and build that P̶y̶r̶a̶m̶i̶d̶ code! *whip*

 

[adan_eslavo]

I think it’s 10 scaling with era, but because madrasah first appears in medieval it “starts” at 20. @Blue Ghost can correct me on this if I am wrong.

Not unfair, just more complicated
more importantly, by the time you are in industrial, the tophet is salvaging 30XP on unit purchases. That is without wonders/policies/orders giving additional XP. That effect can be potentially huge. If the culture on purchase fades into obscurity at that point I’m happy with that; in fact I hope it does

@adan_eslavo i am incredibly dense . I finally get what you did with longbowmen:

Spoiler :

UM - Longbowman (replaces Crossbowman):

• 180 Production Cost
• 18 RCP
• 14 CP
• +1 Range (base range of 3, not arrived forward on upgrade)
• "Agincourt" (20% RCS/CS against Mounted/Armored Units)

... I don’t like it, but you probably knew I would say that. I much prefer abilities carry forward on units, and of course that would require increasing RCP to 21-22 to compensate for the -20% from the range promotion

What do others think?

Haha, nice!
Yeah that's the major difference. I thought that after we talked about OP Licorne with 3 range (lost on promo BTW) same manouver with Longbowman will be also not acceptable. So I modified it. It will have Agincourt which will stay on promo. If you want I can revert changes and add Range promotion and 22 CP instead of 18 CP and flat +1 Range.

 

[pineappledan]

The Licirne was a case of it having 3 other abilities on top of +1 range:
Grapeshot
Move after attacking
Moves normally in enemy terrain

That, and I felt that +1 range was not appropriate, given both the tactics and contemporary weapons technology in which the Licirne is situated

For this, the longbow got to keep its +1 range in vanilla, so to drop it would be a bit of a nerf

 

[adan_eslavo]

Ok, then I will change that. I will give him 23 CP it will be 18.4 CP.