3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[adan_eslavo]

Changes made. Look at them please.

 

[FoxOfWar]

I think Prau would be fine with even the movement, slipstream, sight AND supply, given that it has no extra power and all of those are (to some degree) defensive promotions - they still don't make taking coastal cities much easier at all. Might add a bit to production cost though. Quinquereme is very strong with its' own set (+4 power and Reconnaissance), after all, and Indonesia has no other naval military advantages after that early period. 6 movement alone is quite useless in the non-ocean era without seeing those beyond-ocean coast tiles, so Prau does need something. Supply if we want it more 'combat barbarians' and Sight if it's more about finding those distant lands earlier.

Pogost looks like it's in a good spot for now: Customs House is hardly at the top of the list for new cities to build, and it gaining attributes over time feels right.

Mongolia seems fine with the changes. Likewise, I like where Celts are now. Early potential snowball some, but gotta remember Celts aren't the only ones getting Ancient/Classical uniques.

 

[pineappledan]

Tug Banner: Is that really -1 movement? Doesn't mongol's movement bonus only extends to ranged mounted, so then this UU would only get 3 move? Maybe playing with health isn't such a good idea; bonus HP is already what Khans are for, so putting medic II on the UU is redundant. Why not +% attack when on pillaged tiles instead?

Edit: @adan_eslavo, I was looking at another mongol mod (TarcisioCM's Ilkhanate), and I think he's got a good idea for a knight replacement too. Could save you some effort if you just lifted that

Oppidum: I like that you added more faith, but I think there should at least be a little culture. Also, it's a tile which yields GP points for its own GP? There's no need to have the tile placement limited by no adjacencies if it's a GP improvement. I really like the +HP on cities that work the oppidum. I like it so much I would increase that to 10 HP. I guess everyone likes the idea of this UI not removing forest, eh? ...okay, that's going to make it harder to balance though.

Scythed chariot: I don't necessarily dislike the idea of the carnyx, as long as it stays on upgrade. There needs to be more to differentiate it from 'feared elephant'.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Oh, I actually missed Oppidum not removing forest. That... seems odd. Likewise, it giving GM points feels over the top, given the UA change. Oppidum can be plenty good with just the raw amount of yields it gives to nearby improvements.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Tug Banner: Is that really -1 movement? Doesn't mongol's movement bonus only extends to ranged mounted, so then this UU would only get 3 move?

Iread that mongol horses was slower than other ones. I wanted to implement that. I will replace medic II with something else, that was stupid idea of me.

Oppidum: I like that you added more faith, but I think there should at least be a little culture. Also, it's a tile which yields GP points for its own GP? There's no need to have the tile placement limited by no adjacencies if it's a GP improvement. I really like the +HP on cities that work the oppidum. I like it so much I would increase that to 10 HP. I guess everyone likes the idea of this UI not removing forest, eh? ...okay, that's going to make it harder to balance though.

Agreed.

Scythed chariot: I don't necessarily dislike the idea of the carnyx, as long as it stays on upgrade. There needs to be more to differentiate it from 'feared elephant'.

I will think of that.

 

[pineappledan]

Iread that mongol horses was slower than other ones. I wanted to implement that.

Mongol ponies were indeed pretty small, but they sacrificed that historicity to make sure that people playing Mongolia fielded mounted armies. With that UU, Mongolia will have 6 ranged mounted units, GGs with 5 and then a UU with... 3. That's going to be really awkward; people might even ignore the UU completely. I edited my earlier post. I like the Ilkhanate mod's idea of removing the penalty to cities. The +1 CP on city capture is interesting, but pretty gimmicky.

Does anyone have any comments for the Shoshone UCs, or should I go ahead as is?

Are people cool with the buffalo pound being a well replacement? Should it be a stable or granary instead?
Can anyone think of an alternative to the yellow brow? I could find literally nothing else uniquely shoshone besides the Yellow Brows and the Logs

 

[adan_eslavo]

Few more tweaks.
Carnyx modified only a little. It's almost completely different from "Feared Elephant" because the defensive malus applies only when attacked by the Scythed Chariot not all units. And it has bonus to alied units.
Again modified Tug Banner Warrior. I hope we will finally get the perfect combination for him . Movement malus, medic II and malus vs cities deleted as you suggested. Buffed his power significantly instead (he has f...ing "tug banner", right? ), and rised his cost because of that. Now it's a powerful unit made for pillaging and attacking cities. Period. :] The +1 CP (not CS) is indeed interseting. It prioritize capturing cities by those units.
That's all for today. Sleeping time. Maybe after night some more tweak suggestion will come to my mind.

 

[Jarula]

Me no likey replacement towns. Why not the way they were...

In fact I think Russia should have UI banya...

 

[FoxOfWar]

Given Kampung's (Indonesia) requirement to being next to a sea resource(or atoll) and how those can completely screw you over at times, it could probably use another yield-gain somewhere later on, some culture/science around Industrial era or even later. Also seems it's missing the yield gains for UI's from ideologies.

 

[pineappledan]

Woah, you're really doing a full playthrough huh? When I tried the mod it was allowing me to build kampungs anywhere, as long as there wasn't another adjacent to it. Does it really require adjacent sea resources in your game? Maybe the UI was picking up hidden oil in mine...?

Thanks for catching the ideology improvements, I missed that. I actually didn't realize I had to add definitions for that, but of course I do

you don't think that the yield boosts from lighhouse/Harbour/seaport won't put that over the top?
After seaport, the final yields are: 4/1/4/2
You can also get 1/1 from imperialism finisher
and you get 2 or 1 or 3 from your ideology, potentially
Best possible tile potential, with 'imperialism finisher' and 'military-industrial complex' is: 4/2/4/2/4
I'm worried any more will be pushing push Indonesia over the top.

EDIT: Looks like I'm going to have to eat my words. Looking at other UAs, they get as many as 4 tech upgrades, even if they are in forest/jungle. ie. Kuna, at full tech, full buildings and no policy modifiers is: 3/2/2/2/8/1

In my next build I'll add
1 at navigation
1/1 at dynamite
2 at ecology
Total yield potential, before policy modifiers, will be: 5/2/4/3/2. In comparison to other UIs this would put it below, Kuna or encampment, but still competitive. UIs in VP are nuts!

 

[FoxOfWar]

When I test, I fire up my typical game (Standard/Marathon/King/Random Map) and play until I reach the uniques in question, then play around with them a bit. Of course, with Indonesia's new ones they are pretty early so did not take that long.

Position requirements I am not 100% certain on, as civilopedia wanted adjacent resources(IIRC) but it seems actual gameplay went with 'not next to each other'. Might want to double check that to be sure.

 

[doublex55]

Russia really needs an earlier unique. Also, why in the hell does their UU not require iron? They have 2x strategic resources.

Japan getting a boat should actually be a 100% requirement for this mod, they have coastal start requirement and are known for being an island nation. Maybe instead of the 6 musicians guild, go with the opera house and give it a musician slot, extra work of music slot, writer and artist points, general points from great works, and the gold+culture bonus to ALL guilds.

 

[BazaarJack]

I'm reluctant to add things which would help Japan in any way during the medieval. People have expressed a desire to spread uniques out across eras and I think that will help make the game more engaging. If we can give units at different eras then they have more game time where they feel truly unique.

I don't agree with the idea that we need to spread UCs out across eras. I think we should be focusing on balance and create compelling differences between the CIVs, to make playing them a unique experience. In some cases, this means doubling down on the early game - especially for CIVs like the Huns or creating a huge power spike for the Mongols. Having an all or nothing gamble would be historically accurate and compelling reason to play them - beelining the right techs and kicking off the wars at the right time.

The Daimyo great general adds to Japan's medieval power spike, and also adds to the saturation of great general replacements which have been suggested.
This is of course ignoring the fact that the AI opponent, when given a wacky new ability to deal with on a great person, cannot cope

How does the Daimyo add to Japan's medieval power spike exactly? I'm not disagreeing per se, but am curious to hear your rationale. I've never thought the EXTRA GGs made a big difference midgame, and always thought they needed something extra. I'm always saving mine for Lebensraum or very selectively stealing a useful resource. Also, Daimyo model is complete and interesting flavor for Japan, Maybe we can look at the list of other great generals being proposed and consider cutting them instead.

I like the idea of a musicians guild replacement, but I disapprove of moving it outside renaissance. I see no pressing need to move the building.
No resources currently exist for a gagabuke building, to my knowledge

I provided a pressing need to move the building. Japan's UA creates extra musicians that just feel wasted on early concert tours. It might be useful at times to get the extra happiness, but if you're planning on going Culture Victory, it's a waste. Keep in mind the musicians you generate early game aren't "free". Also, creating building .dds is one of the easier things to do I thought?

Personally I would like to see a naval unit for Japan. There is nothing in their current kit which gives them any naval competency, which is weird for an island nation. My personal vote would be for the Mikasa or Yamato, though probably the mikasa, since no one likes super-late UUs.
Japan is a military civ which can pivot to culture in late game. The Kabuki theatre makes the most sense to me, and as an added bonus there is no current UB replacement for the opera house.

I think of Japan as a culture CIV, that uses military to generate culture. They don't really scale well towards winning conquest, but of course you can play them that way. I don't think we have a music oriented CIV yet. The plan I have for them is that they will be creating potent tourism bombs with musicians in the endgame. I'd make the recommendation that America is a better fit for naval competency, as there is also sufficient historical record to back that up.

 

[doublex55]

How does the Daimyo add to Japan's medieval power spike exactly? I'm not disagreeing per se, but am curious to hear your rationale. I've never thought the EXTRA GGs made a big difference midgame, and always thought they needed something extra. I'm always saving mine for Lebensraum or very selectively stealing a useful resource. Also, Daimyo model is complete and interesting flavor for Japan, Maybe we can look at the list of other great generals being proposed and consider cutting them instead.
[/QUOTE]

Because you are giving them tons of yields when they start apamming generals in medeival.

 

[BazaarJack]

Indonesia's 4UC is done.
Prau - trireme replacement
unlocked at fishing (earlier)
costs 70 (20 less than trireme)
6 moves (2 more than trireme)
slipstream promotion - ignores zone of control

1. I like that it unlocks earlier
2. I think it should cost the same
3. The extra moves and slipstream are good. (I would make sure the extra moves don't survive upgrading.. triremes are around for AWHILE, and now you are getting them earlier)
4. Supply would be very OP. Force them to work through upgrades - melee ships were recently buffed in VP I thought and in my experience are more durable now.

Indonesia's 4UC is done.
Kampung - UI
built on featureless ocean and coast by embarked workers, cannot be built next to each other (can only build kampungs in deep ocean after compass, because workers cannot embark onto ocean until then)
+1 food and +1 culture
+1 to adjacent fishing boats
+1 at compass
unlocked at sailing

Whoa - talk about power spiking. Both UCS are super early, I like that you're thinking about making island cities more useful, because I'm bothered that they are trash for most CIVs, but maybe this comes a little early? Also, will the AI build these?

Indonesia's 4UC is done.
Next up: SHOSHONE
Yellow Brow (Ohamupe)
Tercio replacement
25 CS
anti-mounted I
Fights at full strength when damaged.
‘Big Horse Dance’ Promotion - Double fortification bonus (80% instead of 40%)
using the black mouth unit as a model for now

Would both of these promotions be passed on during upgrade? I'd think the double fortification might be bit too much to pass on.

Indonesia's 4UC is done.
Buffalo Pound
well replacement
no maintenance (down from 1)
+1 production and +1 food (well is +1 prod only)
+1 production and +1 food for every 5 population
+1 from deer, sheep, cattle, horse & bison
can be built on fresh water
can be built if city has water mill

Combined with water mill, that is +3, +3 and 0.45 & per (0.2+0.25)
For comparison, Aztec floating garden is +3, +3 & 0.4 per

Since it comes earlier than floating gardens, I don't think it should give better combined yields. Also +1 from (deer, sheep, cattle, horse, bison) is better than river/lake tiles, because these are tiles that you'd almost certainly be working. Maybe it would be more balanced to give it a flat yield to food/prod and remove the scaler.

 

[BazaarJack]

Because you are giving them tons of yields when they start apamming generals in medeival.

I actually didn't commit any ideas on what the daimyo would do. I said I'd start experimenting with them. The ideas I listed were from the originating post, as a starting point, and Blue Ghost and Enginseer mentioned that the ability based ideas wouldn't work. If we can't find something interesting for them to do, then I'd just say skip them. The models and icons are pretty nice though, and I'd like to try to find a way to make them work.

Also, double generals produces how many extra generals per era, 1..maybe 2 with diminishing returns? I'd expect that by the end of the game you might have received +6 generals, and maybe ~10-12 in total. Compare that to UIs that you can generally build 5-10 of per city and they come online as soon as the required tech is reached and look at the yields on some of them.. I realize Citadel already gets significant yields over time, and can be quite nice lategame, but none of this supports the idea of them being OP in Medieval.

 

[Blue Ghost]

You guys have been busy! I've updated the OP with your contributions. Thanks!

 

[BazaarJack]

Morocco thoughts:

from Original Thread:

UM - Black Guard (replaces Tercio) : 28 CP instead of 25 ; has the "Elite guard" (Benefit from double the defense bonus from terrain), the "+50 % CS against mounted units" and the "Cover I" promotions.

UB - Menara gardens (replaces Garden) : decreased production/gold cost (250 instead of 300) ; decreased upkeep cost (1 instead of 3) ; +2 and +2 on Oasis and Lakes (instead of +2 on Oasis) ; +1 in city for each Mountain within 2 tiles of the city.
=> Modifications will be made after some tests

I think we already have enough Tercio replacements, and I'm not excited for another defensive unit. The Berber/Kasbah already setup Morocco for strong defense. I'm considering a coastal naval unit (Berber Pirate) borrowing some existing model or a UB that grants a naval promotion for Slave Raider similar to Egypt's Gift of Pharoah. Also, think the Menara as proposed is very underwhelming. I get that Morocco is mountainous, but that food yield is pitiful. I would also consider a UW that gives them an additional trade route (if early) or 2 trade routes (if later). I'd also experiment with trade routes completing giving some bonus influence with a City State, as Morocco is Statecraft or bust strategy-wise.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Me no likey replacement towns. Why not the way they were...

In fact I think Russia should have UI banya...

I am opened for suggestions. Do you have some more concept info than bare skeleton? And you probably mean this UB Banya, right?

And I also thought Oppidium as town will be bad but the early concept was OP (usual UI). Now with town replacement its not so OP. Just usual GP improvement. Maybe it needs some more tweaks but its almost in final stage.

Russia really needs an earlier unique. Also, why in the hell does their UU not require iron? They have 2x strategic resources.

With UU you are right. I totally forgot about that. Changed. But 2 late UU and UB we could compensate with some early UB or UI giving Russia quick expansion ability because both their UU need strategic resources. Now they have plenty of time to gather some. They need early support now. I had idea to move cossack earlier but historically they shown up at xiii century and thats still late medieval. They historically didnt have any speciall uu that early. They started expanding in medieval, right?

 

[pineappledan]

How does the Daimyo add to Japan's medieval power spike exactly? I'm not disagreeing per se, but am curious to hear your rationale. I've never thought the EXTRA GGs made a big difference midgame, and always thought they needed something extra. I'm always saving mine for Lebensraum or very selectively stealing a useful resource. Also, Daimyo model is complete and interesting flavor for Japan, Maybe we can look at the list of other great generals being proposed and consider cutting them instead.

Because a great general replacement affects all eras in which you create and use great generals, and I am guessing that would include medieval for Japan. I'm more saying there is an opportunity cost for going with the great general, and I think other possible Japanese UUs look more satisfying to me, from a historical flavour perspective, from a gameplay perspective, and from a functional perspective (given the limitations of the AI).

I provided a pressing need to move the building. Japan's UA creates extra musicians that just feel wasted on early concert tours. It might be useful at times to get the extra happiness, but if you're planning on going Culture Victory, it's a waste. Keep in mind the musicians you generate early game aren't "free". Also, creating building .dds is one of the easier things to do I thought?

The most recent patch gave temples a GW music slot and a GW art slot to castles. If you manage to build more great musicians than cities before renaissance then there are always mandirs, but maybe you should think about upping your difficulty if that's the case?

I'd make the recommendation that America is a better fit for naval competency, as there is also sufficient historical record to back that up.

America is currently slated to get an ironclad UU, actually. Doesn't mean Japan can't get a naval UU either. Sort of a weird bargaining tactic...

1. I like that it unlocks earlier
2. I think it should cost the same
3. The extra moves and slipstream are good. (I would make sure the extra moves don't survive upgrading.. triremes are around for AWHILE, and now you are getting them earlier)
4. Supply would be very OP. Force them to work through upgrades - melee ships were recently buffed in VP I thought and in my experience are more durable now.

2. If it came earlier but cost the same you would be unlikely to actually build it. It's standard practice to lower costs of units if you are also moving them down in tech.
3. The extra moves do not stay on upgrade but the ZOC does.
4. The supply upgrade would be a quality-of-life thing. Early in the game there's no 'safe harbour' for when you're scouting, and I found I basically ran my prau until they got overwhelmed by barbs. Looking back, my supply idea was to take care of something that I think was an annoyance, rather than to take care of an actual balance issue. I think you are right and that I should not actually add it. On the other hand, I am still very much leaning towards @FoxOfWar's idea to give +1 sight. This is the problem with ancient UUs; you have to load them full of bonkers abilities so they actually feel like they make a difference. Look at immortals or quinqeremes, for instance.

Whoa - talk about power spiking. Both UCS are super early, I like that you're thinking about making island cities more useful, because I'm bothered that they are trash for most CIVs, but maybe this comes a little early? Also, will the AI build these?

1 ancient UU
1 classical UI, 1 classical UU
1 medieval UB
We managed to spread them across 3 eras, so I'm reasonably happy. There's civs coming up like the Maya that have their 2 base UCs (and their UA) unlocked at the exact same tech, so It's whatevs. The yields on the UI are pretty low until you get harbours and stuff. I believe the AI will build them, but that's only based on the fact that the computer is already able to issue recommendation prompts for where to put them. I don't have the time or energy to run games of AI indonesia to see if they will actually use their new UCs.

Would both of these promotions be passed on during upgrade? I'd think the double fortification might be bit too much to pass on.

I was leaning toward making the fighting at full lost on promotion, but keeping the double fortify strength (That's 40% -> 80%). Only time will tell, but as it stands I am guessing it will have a smaller effect than you'd think. They're like worse versions of legionnaires, but you have to actually attack them.

Since it comes earlier than floating gardens, I don't think it should give better combined yields. Also +1 from (deer, sheep, cattle, horse, bison) is better than river/lake tiles, because these are tiles that you'd almost certainly be working. Maybe it would be more balanced to give it a flat yield to food/prod and remove the scaler.

I can't remove the scaler, it's the exact same as the well it replaces. removing the scaler would make the building worse than a normal well.
There's a cost benefit thing going on here, and it seems you haven't considered all the angles.

(Buffalo Pound & Watermill) vs (Chinampa)
PROS:
available anywhere at half strength (but Aztecs can build wells too, so you only get +1 food and the yield modifiers on animals)
available earlier (same as above. Aztecs can get wells)
stacks food on tiles with features (if pop is low, possibly better priority)
build 2 buildings instead of 1, can proc 2 "on construction" rewards with the right policies
slightly better scaler (one more / for every 20 )

CONS:
costs 1.5x as much to build (75+150=225, vs 150)
river tiles more plentiful than animals (more total food)
chinampas make lake tiles hotter than your mom.

All in all I actually think floating gardens are better. But even as UBs go, the floating gardens are pretty great so the pound isn't necessarily bad. In a way it's also comparable to the Mongol's Ger, but once again isn't as good.