3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

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As you all know, the American UU has been a source debate since the beginning... Because my original idea was to provide America a way to strenghten its "landgrab" capability in the early game, but that it proved to be too much to make a settler benefitting from some advantages of the pioneer, I have been thinking a bit...

Why not a "militarized" settler for America ? By "militarized", I mean that the unit would be a line of UM replacing the Settler/Pioneer/Colonist. Like a settler, these UM couldn't be bought with gold or faith, and producing them would halt the growth in the city involved, but they would have combat strength. In any case, this can't be a unit you can spam easily.
What are the advantages and inconvenients in providing a military replacement for the settler ?
Pros : - Can defend itself againt barbarians and agressive civilizations
- Can attack other settlers (so gives a net advantage in "forward settling situations")
- Benefits from the American UA (+1 sight)
- Additionnal promotions
- Can benefit from effects reducing its upkeep cost
Cons : - Cannot be produced if you already have too much military units
- Cannot benefit from the "Sacred path" promotion (+2 PM to civilian units)
- Cannot be protected by another unit
At the end, the concept is quite simple, but there are tricky parts :
- Is it possible to replace a civilian unit by a military one in terms of coding ?
- What other bonus could we give to the units of this line (more mobility, ZOC immunity) ? What I'm sure is that we sould give the units a malus against cities.
- What could be the combat strengths of these units ? Should they evolve depending on your technological advance in the infantry line or should they be fixed ones ?
- What names for the units of the lines : Trailblaizers/?/Frontiersmen

What do you think about it ? Should this idea be totally rejected, or should we think about some examples ?

I'm currently working on America and some other civs. I considered the Trailblazer first, but I decided to go with an Ironclad replacement, as pineappledan suggested.

Here's my current proposals for the civs I'm working on:

Spoiler America :

UU: Monitor (Ironclad)
56 :c5strength: CS (up from 50)
Supply and Medic promotions

UB: Ranch (Stable)
+2 :c5food: Food, :c5production: Production, :c5gold: Gold from Horses, Cattle, Sheep and Bison
+25% border growth rate
Whenever border grows (naturally or through tile purchase), +10 :c5food: Food and :c5culture: Culture in the city, scaling with era

Wasn't really satisfied with the UI, and I don't want to add UIs without existing art assets.

Spoiler Arabia :

UU: Hashemite Raider (Cavalry)
32 :c5strength: CS, 48 :c5strength: RCS (up from 30/45)
No movement cost to pillage
Garland Mine promotion (When pillaging, deal 10 damage to adjacent enemy units)

Madrasah (University)

+4 :c5faith: Faith
+25% :c5greatperson: Great Person generation


Spoiler Assyria :

Iron Chariot (Skirmisher)
Unlocked at Iron Working
12 :c5strength: CS (up from 10)
Armor Plating, Can pillage without cost

Lamassu Gate (Walls)
+20% unit supply from population (up from +10%)
+1 :c5culture: Culture
1 Writer specialist slot


Spoiler Austria :

Landwehr (Fusilier)
38 :c5strength: CS (up from 35)
Imperial Vigilance (+25% CS in friendly territory)
Sentry (+1 sight)

Standschützen (Arsenal)
700 :c5production: Production cost down from 900)
+25 :c5strength: city defense, +200 HP (up from 20/150)
-20% cost for buying military units
+2 :c5gold: Gold and +1 :c5culture: Culture for each allied CS
+10% supply cap from population


Spoiler Aztecs :

Eagle (Swordsman)
16 :c5strength: CS (up from 15)
Does not require Iron
Sentry (+1 sight)
50% chance of spawning a Worker when killing a unit

Huey Teocalli (Grand Temple)
Does not require Temple. Grants a free Temple when built.
+2 :c5food: Food from Temples, +2 :c5culture: Culture from Barracks
When a Golden Age starts, receive a permanent +3 :c5faith: Faith, +3 :c5food: Food, and +5 XP to units trained in city
 
Code:
GameEvents.CityPrepared.Add(function(iPlayer, iCity, iSpecialist)
Code:
GameEvents.CityPrepared.Add(function(iPlayer, iCity, iSpecialist, bGold, bFaith) end)
? Have you tried using print statements?
Of course, thats why I know it doesnt work. I put only simple statements to this function to print player and city name after great person is generated. When i construct building or train unit those 2 other functions show me some data. Unfortunately citytrained function shows nothing when great diplomat is generated in the city so, I wanted to use cityprepared function, but effecr is zero.
 
Of course, thats why I know it doesnt work. I put only simple statements to this function to print player and city name after great person is generated. When i construct building or train unit those 2 other functions show me some data. Unfortunately citytrained function shows nothing when great diplomat is generated in the city so, I wanted to use cityprepared function, but effecr is zero.
Maybe this is an issue you should take to Github if CityPrepared isn't working and EVENTS_CITY is enabled.
 
As you all know, the American UU has been a source debate since the beginning... Because my original idea was to provide America a way to strenghten its "landgrab" capability in the early game, but that it proved to be too much to make a settler benefitting from some advantages of the pioneer, I have been thinking a bit...

Why not a "militarized" settler for America ? By "militarized", I mean that the unit would be a line of UM replacing the Settler/Pioneer/Colonist. Like a settler, these UM couldn't be bought with gold or faith, and producing them would halt the growth in the city involved, but they would have combat strength. In any case, this can't be a unit you can spam easily.
What are the advantages and inconvenients in providing a military replacement for the settler ?
Pros : - Can defend itself againt barbarians and agressive civilizations
- Can attack other settlers (so gives a net advantage in "forward settling situations")
- Benefits from the American UA (+1 sight)
- Additionnal promotions
- Can benefit from effects reducing its upkeep cost
Cons : - Cannot be produced if you already have too much military units
- Cannot benefit from the "Sacred path" promotion (+2 PM to civilian units)
- Cannot be protected by another unit
At the end, the concept is quite simple, but there are tricky parts :
- Is it possible to replace a civilian unit by a military one in terms of coding ?
- What other bonus could we give to the units of this line (more mobility, ZOC immunity) ? What I'm sure is that we sould give the units a malus against cities.
- What could be the combat strengths of these units ? Should they evolve depending on your technological advance in the infantry line or should they be fixed ones ?
- What names for the units of the lines : Trailblaizers/?/Frontiersmen

What do you think about it ? Should this idea be totally rejected, or should we think about some examples ?

I think this is interesting, it could allow us to give them a really strong military unit since it has so many drawbacks to producing. (Reduced growth, cannot be purchased, super expensive). It could settle one city similar to conquistador. It could also get a promotion that gives +1 combat strength on kill to keep it relavent since it cant promote. Penalty vs cities though.

Make it a unique pioneer replacement and available MUCH earlier.
 
@Blue Ghost I like the ranch. I think the Madrasah is too good though. 10% great hero generation should be enough. Could do something else faith-related besides straight +:c5faith:faith, since the bazaar already does that, and it's pretty late for a faith building. Maybe 25% religious pressure, increased religious pressure range or 2x religious pressure on trade routes from this city? Something strictly to help Islam spread in the medieval.

Or if it reduced the price of purchasing with faith by 10%, that could help for when Arabia starts buying GPs

My only issue with the Hashemite as it currently stands is that the proposed garland mine upgrade stacks too neatly with the splash damage you get if upgrading from camel archer. And it should be a light tank replacement :groucho:.

Proposal for the Monitor: A % chance to evade ranged attacks as a unique promotion. During the battle of Hampton roads, the CSS Virginia nearly emptied its stores of ammunition, but was only able to score 22 hits against the USS monitor. The Monitor was designed from the ground up to present the smallest possible target to enemy fire. Its top deck was only 18 inches above the waterline, making the vessel almost untargetable except for the bridge, the turret, or plunging fire.

If possible, a 25% chance to do 0 damage on ranged attacks would be very historical, and would fit the ship better than the supply promotion, which implies a seaworthiness which the Monitor distinctly lacked. Hell, the Monitor had to resupply in the middle of the battle of the ironclads at Hampton Roads.

@doublex55 Blue Ghost and I were talking about that earlier, it's definitely a problem. Historically, Arabian infantry is kinda boring, and we couldn't spread the eras apart to our satisfaction. We hoped that the units being 3 eras apart would mitigate the fact that they are the same unit line. I also suggested they could be light tank replacements, to put them even further apart, make them more unique and put them in the right historical context.
 
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How about a unique Arabian Inquisitor. Grants faith and culture when garrisoned and can spread religion twice?
 
A few problems with an Arabian inquisitor:
  • We have no model for one
  • it's a civilian unit, so it would have to replace the madrasah
  • There's no historical basis for one, since Muslims never had an inquisition. In fact quite the opposite. When too many of the lower class converted to Islam it destroyed the tax system and triggered civil war. Arabs were protective of Islam, seeing the religion as a marker of their nobility that separated them from commoners.
 
Call it imam. The Muslims had no Inquisition exactly. A unit to function like the way I mentioned. It's not civilian it's a UU.

Venice has a civilian uu and a UB. I am getting poed by that civilian UB "rule"

So many civs we're only powerhouses because of civilian power. I say the rule should be rescinded one UU one UB is fair but more than that is >(
 
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I don't think there's really that much of a problem with the Arabian units being in same line. So much can happen in several eras, at that point it'd feel like a reward for getting the unit to survive that long. Even with synergistic promotions, I really don't it'd be a problem - Arabia has no other military benefits, after all.

@Blue Ghost: looking good to me, overall :)
 
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@Blue Ghost I like the ranch. I think the Madrasah is too good though. 10% great hero generation should be enough. Could do something else faith-related besides straight +:c5faith:faith, since the bazaar already does that, and it's pretty late for a faith building. Maybe 25% religious pressure, increased religious pressure range or 2x religious pressure on trade routes from this city? Something strictly to help Islam spread in the medieval.

Or if it reduced the price of purchasing with faith by 10%, that could help for when Arabia starts buying GPs

My only issue with the Hashemite as it currently stands is that the proposed garland mine upgrade stacks too neatly with the splash damage you get if upgrading from camel archer. And it should be a light tank replacement :groucho:.

Proposal for the Monitor: A % chance to evade ranged attacks as a unique promotion. During the battle of Hampton roads, the CSS Virginia nearly emptied its stores of ammunition, but was only able to score 22 hits against the USS monitor. The Monitor was designed from the ground up to present the smallest possible target to enemy fire. Its top deck was only 18 inches above the waterline, making the vessel almost untargetable except for the bridge, the turret, or plunging fire.

If possible, a 25% chance to do 0 damage on ranged attacks would be very historical, and would fit the ship better than the supply promotion, which implies a seaworthiness which the Monitor distinctly lacked. Hell, the Monitor had to resupply in the middle of the battle of the ironclads at Hampton Roads.

@doublex55 Blue Ghost and I were talking about that earlier, it's definitely a problem. Historically, Arabian infantry is kinda boring, and we couldn't spread the eras apart to our satisfaction. We hoped that the units being 3 eras apart would mitigate the fact that they are the same unit line. I also suggested they could be light tank replacements, to put them even further apart, make them more unique and put them in the right historical context.
For the Monitor, a Cover promotion could accomplish something similar while being less RNG-dependent, and not involve extra LUA work.

For the Madrasah, how about giving a boost to science when making a faith purchase? Maybe 20% of the faith spent?
 
The RNG was sort of the idea. It would function the same as 25% defense vs ranged over enough hits, but a little RNG never hurt nobody, plus it would stack with cover. I have to admit this community's phobia of random mechanics is pretty funny to me. But yeah, I understand it might not be worth the coding effort.

The madrasah bonus is a great idea! Really unique, and it makes fealty more attractive as a policy option.
 
I have to admit this community's phobia of random mechanics is pretty funny to me.
They probably never played roguelikes :p <<FTL fun here
BTW All attacks in civ 5 have some sort of random attack/defend result as far as I remember. So it exists already. :]

@pineappledan I wrote first version of "Indian Giver" great diplomat ability, but cannot test it until next VP is coming out (reported on github GameEvents.CityPrepared function as not working and Gazebo will repair it. It is vital for this unique ability). Also finally completed +1 Happiness from DP and Wars. It was tough.

@Enginseer Do you remember my CTD issue?
Code:
------------------------------
[12772.628] no such column: Type
[12772.628] In Query - select * from Natural_Wonder_Placement where Type = ? LIMIT 1
Here is the reason probably. I haven't tested it yet.
 
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I hope someone else chimes in. For context, @adan_eslavo is making a great diplomat promotion for the Iroquois which takes the yields of embassies planted in city states and adds them to the Iroquois capital. I jokingly suggested the promotion be called "Indian Giver"

Now on one hand I think this is hilarious. On the other hand, it's pretty racist. Is this funny enough, and is the racism benign enough, that we can get away with this?
 
I think "Indian Giver" has its own history. I heard it for the first time and read about it. I think it fit well and shows some aspect of past times. But if someone is offended by it i wont dare to defend it.
 
I think "Indian Giver" has its own history. I heard it for the first time and read about it. I think it fit well and shows some aspect of past times. But if someone is offended by it i wont dare to defend it.
Instead of using the term "Indian Giver" which has the pejorative connotation, why not just focus on the intent and call it "diplomatic reciprocity". If we're to believe Wikipedia, it's merely a cultural misinterpretation.
 
Getting started on Japan. Here are the ideas from the OP:

UGP - Daimyo (replaces Great General) :c5strength::c5greatperson::c5happy::c5goldenage::c5food::c5culture: : In Capital city, can conduct a "daimyo-gyoretsu" (triggers a long WLTKD in the city and a minor :c5goldenage:), one time per Daimyo ; Can be expended to found a Citadel with +3 :c5food: and +3 :c5culture:.
=> mix of the GG of this mod


UB -
Noh Stage (replaces Artists Guild) :c5greatperson::c5culture::greatwork: : can be constructed six times instead of three ; +3 Great writer points (in addition to the +4 Great artist points) ; +1 :c5culture: to artist specialist in empire; has a Great work of art slot.

I'm interested in experimenting with the Daimyo, since this should work well with the theme and the extra great general generation by Samurai. I think the Golden Age is overkill and doesn't fit in. How about adding +1 happiness permanently to the city? I'm not sure about how to make a unique citadel with extra food + culture, but will look into it.

I'm thinking about modifying Noh Stage to be Gagaku instead. I'd like to I'd like to keep some aspects - construct 6 times instead of 3. However, I'd replace music guild and make it available much earlier(Classical/Medieval). I'd give it a Great work of music slot, to take advantage of the early musicians that Japan gets from UA. No gold maintenance and perhaps some additional culture/tourism to great works of music rather than to the artist specialists.

Thoughts?
 
I don't think there's really that much of a problem with the Arabian units being in same line. So much can happen in several eras, at that point it'd feel like a reward for getting the unit to survive that long. Even with synergistic promotions, I really don't it'd be a problem - Arabia has no other military benefits, after all.

@Blue Ghost: looking good to me, overall :)

Keep in mind the hashemite rider will also have splash 1 and withdraw before melee from camel archers that survive. It will be able to go in, pillage and shoot for 15 aoe damage and be pretty safe too.

I dont think its so much a problem as it is undprecedented.

I also like it as a light tank replacement. It spreads them out more and means Arabia never has to secure horses.
 
Getting started on Japan. Here are the ideas from the OP:

UGP - Daimyo (replaces Great General) :c5strength::c5greatperson::c5happy::c5goldenage::c5food::c5culture: : In Capital city, can conduct a "daimyo-gyoretsu" (triggers a long WLTKD in the city and a minor :c5goldenage:), one time per Daimyo ; Can be expended to found a Citadel with +3 :c5food: and +3 :c5culture:.
=> mix of the GG of this mod


UB -
Noh Stage (replaces Artists Guild) :c5greatperson::c5culture::greatwork: : can be constructed six times instead of three ; +3 Great writer points (in addition to the +4 Great artist points) ; +1 :c5culture: to artist specialist in empire; has a Great work of art slot.

I'm interested in experimenting with the Daimyo, since this should work well with the theme and the extra great general generation by Samurai. I think the Golden Age is overkill and doesn't fit in. How about adding +1 happiness permanently to the city? I'm not sure about how to make a unique citadel with extra food + culture, but will look into it.

I'm thinking about modifying Noh Stage to be Gagaku instead. I'd like to I'd like to keep some aspects - construct 6 times instead of 3. However, I'd replace music guild and make it available much earlier(Classical/Medieval). I'd give it a Great work of music slot, to take advantage of the early musicians that Japan gets from UA. No gold maintenance and perhaps some additional culture/tourism to great works of music rather than to the artist specialists.

Thoughts?
Golden Age is indeed Overkilk

I like the Gagaku as a Musicians guild better, gives Japan some time to have a conquered city ready to build it. Make it availae slightly after artists, and near the military side of the tech tree. How about +2 writers points and +2 artist points.

The bonus should be to all great works and should not be culture as they will have tons of culture with so many guilds and op citadels. Maybe great general points and more tourism from great works?
 
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