3UC/4UC for VP: Project Coordination Thread

[Hinin]

Other thing (this was the main reason I used France during the test session) : the splash damage of the Chamel archer doesn't trigger the Esprit de Corps bonus.
One of the reasons I wanted the Soixante-Quinze to have splash damage was (aside from the historical accuracy : the Soixante-Quinze was very lethal when using shrapnel) to trigger EdC has much as possible and then launch the offensive (ww1 style). I wonder if there is a way to make this work (I think it would be too complicated to code, but think about all the beautiful combinations you could make).
Bonus : the celtic UM works fine ; it just made me laugh thinking of all the possibilities (you can take three of these and turn around an enemy to death).

 

[pineappledan]

Glad to hear dropping the 75 won’t cause too much heartbreak. The 75 is already the default model for the field gun, so we never could add it in the first place

 

[pineappledan]

@Blue Ghost, in light of my earlier "state of the modmod post, I think we need to reassess what the desired outcome is for China.

Current China:

Spoiler :

UA - Founding/conquering cities, connecting resources or creating great works launches WLTED and gives +1/+1 in all cities, cumulative. Bonuses are erased during tech era changes.

+10% food in cities during WLTED. Paper makers give +15%

Chu Ko Nus have 2 attacks

Proposed UCs:

Spoiler :

UU: Fire Lancer (Pikeman)
Available at Metal Casting (1 tech earlier)
17 CS (up from 15)
Pyrotechnics (-20 % CS/RCS for all hostile mounted units within two tiles and -5 % CS/RCS for all other land units ; doesn't stack)
Splash Damage
No bonus against mounted units
Treated as a gunpowder unit (probably not relevant for anything)

One of the earliest forms of gunpowder weapon. In modern term, the Fire lance was a normal spear with a shotgun cartridge strapped to the end. This single gunpowder charge had a range of no more than 3 meters, but could give a crucial 'shock' advantage at the beginning of a melee engagement.

Is there any reason these were moved up a tech level? The first recorded deptiction of a fire lance is 950 AD, and they became widespread by the 12th century. They were still widely in use during the Mongol Invasion. I don't see much reason to move them into classical.

UB: Examination Hall (Chancery)
Unlocked at Education
+1 paper
2 Civil Servant specialists (up from 1)
+10% to diplomatic units
+5 promotion on diplo units built here
5% of current production added to production as an instant boost on citizen birth
+5% Great People rate in the city, increased to +10% during WLTKD
Whenever a citizen is born in the city, gain 30 GPP towards a random Great Person, scaling with era

UW: Siku Quanshu (Hermitage)
Unlocked at architecture
Requires Chancery in city
Grants a free Great Writer
+25% Great Writer rate in all cities
+3 Science to Universities and Chanceries, and +3 Culture to Great Works of Writing
4 Great Work of Writing slots (instead of Art)
+10 Science, Culture and Gold when themed with writing from different eras

Xiafan Guanjun - (Frigate)
Unlocked at Astronomy (1 tech earlier)
400 (25 more than Frigate)
36 RCS (2+ than frigate)
30 CS (10+ than frigate)
Great Generals I promotion
'Kowtow' promotion (2 CS influence every turn when in city-state border)
Broadside Promotion (+40% vs cities)

The largest junks ever created, and more than twice the size of any ships the Europeans were building at the time, the Ming Dynasty's legendary 'treasure fleet'. Led by the great Zheng He, the Xiafan Guanjun undertook 7 treasure voyages. On these voyages they deposed monarchs, destroyed pirate armadas, transported diplomats and even abducted kings to make tribute and pay homage to the emperor of China. These voyages greatly extended the Chinese sphere of influence, and made vassals and suzerains of dozens of smaller, client states.

UU - Red Guard
Infantry replacement
I'm not seriously considering this option, it's much too late to be fun, and I'd rather keep things with dynastic China, rather than the PRC. This echoes my preference to keep England "english". Keep China "Imperial"

Right now China has :
1 Classical UB (library)
1 Medieval UU (crossbow)

Proposals are:
1 Classical UU (Pikeman)
1 Renaissance UU (Frigate)
1 Renaissance UW (Hermitage)
1 Medieval UB (Chancery)

So what should we go with? Personally, I think the Examination Hall (Chancery), and Xiafan Guanjun (Frigate) give the best spread. These two also happen to be the ones that @Blue Ghost HASN'T been working on
Reasoning for my view:

Spoiler :

Chancery:

• I said I liked the Siku Quanshu better, and I still do. sort of. However, there are currently no chancery replacements and there are 3 hermitage replacements.
• Both proposed UCs synergize very well with the Chinese UA, but the Examination Hall doesn't favour specific GPs over others, unlike Siku Quanshu. I am not sure if focusing China on GWW is intentional or beneficial
• The Siku Quanshu could cause a shortage in GWA slots, since it replaces a wonder with 3 GWA slots for a building with 4 GWW

Xiafan Guanjun:

• If we go with the Chancery replacement we have to get a renaissance or later UC in. With the fire lancer, there would be 4 UCs in 4 tech levels: paper maker -> fire lancer -> exam hall -> chu ko nu. One after the other. This assumes Fire lancer is kept at the proposed metal casting, which doesn't make much historical sense to me.
• There are more 2-3 pikeman replacements (Dutch, Polynesia, maybe Ethiopia), but England's SotL is the only frigate.

Honestly I really like all the suggestions and proposals to China. I just wanted to begin a conversation regarding where people think this civ is heading.
Is it okay if they have a massive medieval power spike?
Are my worries about GWArt overblown?
Would people prefer a unique wonder over a unique building, diversity of UCs be damned?
Are there personal preferences, biases, alternative proposals, or fixes to the current proposals that need to be made?

 

[FoxOfWar]

China: I would probably go with the frigate and hermitage. I think the chancery replacement is really sweet too, though. Diversity of unique buildings is probably not that big a concern, as it's not as much a visible thing compared to UU's, so you'd not notice it as much in-game.

I think that medieval power-spike is a bigger concern in this case, anyway.

EDIT: Does 'Great Generals' promotion here mean 'Great Admirals', for the frigate?

 

[David de Vasconcelos]

Hello everyone, I have never commented on the forum, but I have played VP for some time and I like your proposal to further increase the differences between civilizations.
I have a suggestion for Brazil, I think there should be something related to sugar and coffee in your UA.
Brazil was very dependent on these plantations during the empire.

My proposal is to add to the UA:

Spoiler :

... A copy of sugar or coffee appears around a newly founded city.
or
... Copies of sugar and coffee add extra happiness.
or
... Copies of sugar and coffee plantations generate extra GAP and gold

 

[Hinin]

ello everyone, I have never commented on the forum, but I have played VP for some time and I like your proposal to further increase the differences between civilizations.
I have a suggestion for Brazil, I think there should be something related to sugar and coffee in your UA.
Brazil was very dependent on these plantations during the empire.

My proposal is to add to the UA:

Spoiler : ... A copy of sugar or coffee appears around a newly founded city.
or
... Copies of sugar and coffee add extra happiness.
or
... Copies of sugar and coffee plantations generate extra GAP and gold

First, welcome on the forum !

The fact is that Brazil already has a unique luxury resource, and giving it another one would make it look like a simili indonesia. I agree that the wealth of Brazil comes mostly from the exploitation of natural resources, but I think the second UB should focus more on the Brazilian culture and less on its territory (but it's only my point of view).
What do you all think about this ?

 

[pineappledan]

@FoxOfWar There is no great admirals promotion separate from great generals. If you give a boat great generals, it should increase the spawns of admirals

I agree about the sugar thing. Tying unique components to randomly generated luxuries is a dice roll. It's either extremely good for the start, or it's not in the game at all. You would end up rerolling Brazil until you got 3 sugar to start instead of just actually playing

 

[Jarula]

For China I encourage land unit and chancery except buff GP rate. If I use basically civs I do ygaemp and I am kind of sour China never makes it. Korea ALWAYs eats much of China China is always megadisappointing like europe.

I know people dont make mod mod mods but honestly why not give unique settlers to China or India they were expanisive cradles of early civilization.

 

[pineappledan]

Radical idea: @Blue Ghost wanted something for each of the 4 Great Inventions, but chu ko nu doesn’t represent any of them. So why not drop the Chu ko nu?

Paper maker: Paper
Fire lancer: Gunpowder
Xiafan guanjun: Compass
Examination hall or Siku quanshu: Printing press



Then just make chu ko nu a CS gift. You'd get either a 1 Cla/2 Med/1 Ren or 1 Cla/1 Med/2 Ren UC spread.

For China I encourage land unit and chancery except buff GP rate.

The original was a straight 10% buff, and 20% during WLTED. I thought that scaled too well so @Blue Ghost suggested a flat 40GPP. I split the difference and suggested 5% and 30GPP.
For context, the first GP is born at 100 GPPs, and it doubles every time (100->200->400 etc.). So a flat boost would be 30% of your first GPP, extremely good at getting your first few GPs out and then it levels out.

• I thought that felt more historically accurate, with how china led the world in social and technological development for much of its history, and then was surpassed and subjugated by 'westernized' powers later.
• Keep in mind that it would scale every era, so 60 in renaissance, 90 in industrial, etc. Every time a citizen is born.
• The UA gives bonus food and WLTED boosts growth by 35% total, so that's a large synergy. It might need to be weakened even more, given how China can grow so rapidly.

We can fiddle with the numbers later I guess? My initial impression is that it's still too strong and offers too much synergy. Perhaps it's best to remove the % boost to GPs entirely

If I use basically civs I do ygaemp and I am kind of sour China never makes it. Korea ALWAYs eats much of China China is always megadisappointing like europe.

How many games in your sample size? Also using the same map is a bad way of testing balance, you should use generated maps so you know that civs aren't living and dying based on start locations.

If you're playing with a bunch of civs in true start locations its no wonder Europe performs poorly. They are in very tight competition for space from the start. Constant jockeying and warring would sap progress when compared with civs like Brazil, Indonesia or Zulu, who are in their own little world.

 

[De_Genius]

Andelsbevægelse is now done except for the icons.
Langskib is also done except for the unit model.

I have not looked into the unit model yet, but I will "borrow" the model from another mod and try to insert it, while I wait for my friend to finish up the icons for Andelsbevægelse.

@pineappledan I ended up giving the Langskib "move after attack" promotion instead of "supply" to make it a little more tactical to use.

 

[Hinin]

Radical idea: @Blue Ghost wanted something for each of the 4 Great Inventions, but chu ko nu doesn’t represent any of them. So why not drop the Chu ko nu?

Paper maker: Paper
Fire lancer: Gunpowder
Xiafan guanjun: Compass
Examination hall or Siku quanshu: Printing press

Then just make chu ko nu a CS gift. You'd get either a 1 Cla/2 Med/1 Ren or 1 Cla/1 Med/2 Ren UC spread.

I'm not against this idea (since I think the Chu ko nu, in its current form, really lacks originality : aside from "Logistic" and a small RCP boost, this unit seems, gameplay-wise, like an late and underwhelming version of the Slinger), but there will be difficulties replacing the CKN by the Fire lancer :
- first, the fact that the CKN is a traditionnal UM of the Chinese => replacing it would mean that the new unit must be worth it in terms of originality and power ;
- I don't know if you have been able to find 3d models for the Fire lancer, but the attack animation will be quite difficult to make (maybe normal attack animation, preceded by a fire animation taken from the canon) ;

For the other UM, I think the Xiafan Guanjun (diplomatic ship) could be a really interesting : first, it reinforces the "overwhelming" and "omnipresent" vibes I have whenever I meet China (this juggernaut of a civ which needs to always grow and project its power), and it gives to the "gunboat diplomacy" a new meaning (a naval version of the Landwehr : protection and control of the CS). The important is to properly balance the thing, of course.

 

[Hinin]

Also, for the Xiafan Guanjun, you can take the 3d model of the Red Fleet Junk (so asking to Scissor_Fingers and then the ones responsible for the 3d model and artwork is necessary). http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=765604971

 

[pineappledan]

The war junk and the fire lancer unit models could both be used from TarcisioSM's Song Mod. This is the same war junk model used by the 4UC mod. The red colours of the Cantonese mod look more "southern Chinese", which was the intent in that mod, so I prefer the colour palette of the one made by Wolfdog.

Wolfdog and GeneralMatt made the Junk
Bernie14 made the FireLancer
There's loads of icons available for the Junk, but my favorite is the one I linked by MikeBurnFire. I think the junk icon from Tarcisio's mod looks overexposed and Mike's makes the ship look "bigger"

I don't know if animations for the fire lancer include them "shooting" their lances, but the unit exists and the art assets exist for everything except the building art icons for whatever Blue Ghost goes with for that. Exam hall or Siku, no icons for either; all the existing China mods seem to have an obsession with units

 

[Jarula]

Still think the junk is too weak. Should be scarier.

 

[pineappledan]

Definitely could use some input on the numbers for the junk, or ideas concerning how it should play. The other frigate replacement (SotL) has:
+4RCS (38 total), +4 CS (26 total)
+1 vision
logistics (so, with the -20% from logistics, it actually hits twice for 30.4 RCS, 4 less than base frigate)

• I don't want the Xiafan to out-DPS a ship of the line, but I wanted to give it some power. Therefore +2 RCS (36 total, it's the hardest hitting unit for a single attack in the renaissance, only the melee of the sea beggar hits harder)
• The melee ship, the corvette, has base 36 CS. Because these ships were so hulking and had support and repair craft in the fleet I wanted to make them able to stand up to the melee ships. Therefore +10CS (32 total). I feel this is a pretty dramatic buff, it will make these vessels hard to lose, since they don't melee attack
• These were primarily diplomatic vessels to demonstrate the might of China and create vassals, rather than pure conquest. Hence the Kowtow promotion
• Despite their more diplomatic overtures, the treasure fleet is famous for
  1. Destroying a south China pirate fleet, killing over 5000 pirates and executing their leaders on the first voyage
  2. Bullying the Majapahit (Indonesia) into submission on the 2nd voyage
  3. Completely wrecking Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and kidnapping their king in the 3rd voyage.
  4. Deposing a Sumatran king and reinstating China's puppet king who had been usurped
  5. Bullying Mogadishu and Lasa on the 5th voyage.
• Hence the Broadside promotion, because they be kicking landlubber asses on the daily if they have to

Is moving it a tech earlier a bad idea? Is the increase in production too low? is the CS too high? SotL date from the 17th century. the Xiafan Guanjun was constructed in 15th century. It could technically be a galleas replacement with that timeline. It stradles the line, but I preferred to put it further back because there's too many unique medieval ships already

 

[FoxOfWar]

I think as a concept Xiafan is fine, as that defensive strenght can be one of those things that don't look like much on paper but turn a naval battle around out of nowhere. One might notice that Xiafans are really hard to sink with contemporary ships, something worth quite a bit on its' own.

The promotions seem interesting to tool with, flavorful, and it's certainly different enough from SotL.

 

[Jarula]

Why not supply?

Or the survivalism promotions with reduced mobility.

 

[FoxOfWar]

Balance concern: seems like the Polish Pancerny is rather ridiculously strong. Playing with Arabia against Poland, and my Camel Archers (also Heavy Skirmisher replacement) are getting positively toasted. 18CS/24RCS (already an improvement with the Camel Archer from base Heavy Skirmisher) VS. 24CS/26RCS.
One could argue that the Camel Archer has better promotions (withdraw before melee + splash damage vs. faith on kills + Cover I), but I do feel Pancerny could use a slight nerf:
(pick one)
- 1 less movement to go with that 'heavy' part
- RCS to the base 22, since they are supposed to be good defensively, not offensively
- CS to 20-22 range, since they come with Cover I as well

Also, I seem to have the Great Turkish Bombard on my tech three even as I am playing as Arabia. Some weird cross-pollination going on.

 

[pineappledan]

The pancerny is getting toned down next version. Iroquois’ UU is even more out of whack . Can you actually build the bombard?

 

[FoxOfWar]

The pancerny is getting toned down next version. Iroquois’ UU is even more out of whack . Can you actually build the bombard?

Good to know, heh.

Didn't have Iron anywhere logical or nearby to test that, on the save. But I reckon I could've.