4.0 and the Future
- Thread starter deanej
- Start date
. deanej
Deity
4.0 isn't actually released yet. It should be soon, though, and it will have an installer.
Panda_Power
Warlord
I upgraded from 3.25 to the beta n 4.0 today and wow!.....it is fast!
Great work!!
Great work!!
deanej
Deity
I've been considering a couple changes to the Borg, mainly to help the AI (and mainly in The Galaxy). The first would be to increase the power rating (used only for the AI and the power demographics screen) of Borg units. In The Galaxy I'd add a Borg Probe unit similar to the advanced deep space probe (but with hidden nationality) that would allow them to scout out faster. Also for The Galaxy, I'm considering adding anywhere from 2-4 cities for them on the map, but this could be too powerful, especially for human players.
deanej
Deity
Anyone have any thoughts on the Borg cities in The Galaxy? I won't do it unless people think it's needed, since it's such a major change, but I would like to hear soon (as I would prefer not to patch 4.0 unless necessary once released).
Marla McGivers
Chieftain
Regarding the Borg I find myself unsure about adding extra cities for them as I think they have a good advantage already having access to Cube II right from the beginning, but that said it forces them to try and conquer immediately due to being unable to research and that of course grants cities when they are taken.
I have played them myself on the Beta version of 4 and have a major worry... Which is that I find the AI races do not expand very quickly and what I dislike, personally, is knocking civilisations out almost immediately in the game. I certainly don't want to end a game as soon as I start it!
So, while it's realistic for the Borg to conquer those they meet, I find forcing them to conquer to gain technology means that playing them forces me to eliminate civilisations very early in the game!
So adding extra cities at the start would just quicken their pace of conquest wouldn't it?
I'm not sure there's much of a way around that, but giving them extra resources at the start isn't that necessary I feel. I certainly didn't find it hard going playing as them. Is it possible to configure them so that, if played, an option is available to either play them without research or with it?
I do have a query regarding Hostile Aliens though... I enjoy having "Barbarians" active but found that in every game I started I was getting messages through (after 300 turns or so) that civilisations were being eliminated and when I checked via the Worldbuilder I saw that they were being taken out by the Barbarians!! Whats more I noticed that the map was literally swarming with them!!
I was coping fine with them myself, but the AI races were being overwhelmed! I didn't even have "Aggressive" on for the Barbarians either.
This has happened one more than one occasion and while I appreciate that the size of the map/fog of war is causing them to multiply rapidly it ruins the game (for me) if they are almost Borglike in their ability to swarm races.
I think it boils down to the AI races not expanding quickly, yet in normal CIV they spread like wildfire!
Does anyone else find this or is it just little old me?
Marla x
I have played them myself on the Beta version of 4 and have a major worry... Which is that I find the AI races do not expand very quickly and what I dislike, personally, is knocking civilisations out almost immediately in the game. I certainly don't want to end a game as soon as I start it!
So, while it's realistic for the Borg to conquer those they meet, I find forcing them to conquer to gain technology means that playing them forces me to eliminate civilisations very early in the game!
So adding extra cities at the start would just quicken their pace of conquest wouldn't it?
I'm not sure there's much of a way around that, but giving them extra resources at the start isn't that necessary I feel. I certainly didn't find it hard going playing as them. Is it possible to configure them so that, if played, an option is available to either play them without research or with it?
I do have a query regarding Hostile Aliens though... I enjoy having "Barbarians" active but found that in every game I started I was getting messages through (after 300 turns or so) that civilisations were being eliminated and when I checked via the Worldbuilder I saw that they were being taken out by the Barbarians!! Whats more I noticed that the map was literally swarming with them!!
I was coping fine with them myself, but the AI races were being overwhelmed! I didn't even have "Aggressive" on for the Barbarians either.
This has happened one more than one occasion and while I appreciate that the size of the map/fog of war is causing them to multiply rapidly it ruins the game (for me) if they are almost Borglike in their ability to swarm races.
I think it boils down to the AI races not expanding quickly, yet in normal CIV they spread like wildfire!
Does anyone else find this or is it just little old me?
Marla x
deanej
Deity
The extra cities would only be for The Galaxy map only, where the Borg start out quite far away relative to the other civs. Plus the AI doesn't know it needs to conqueror cities.
One strategy that might be big with them is to take a city, let the AI take it back, and take it again (and again, and again, etc.). The code doesn't care if it's the same city.
One strategy that might be big with them is to take a city, let the AI take it back, and take it again (and again, and again, etc.). The code doesn't care if it's the same city.
I play without the barbarians for the exact reason you state; good game going, but after 150 turns 1/2 the civs are getting beat down/eliminated by barbs.
As for the easy progress, what level do you play at? I've tried Lt. Commander/Commander and with aggressive civs I've had a few legitimate struggles.
I find that a lot of the ability of the other civs to expand depends on their starting system. I've played more than 5 games between 3.xx and 4.xx (not all the way through) and each time a couple different civs will expand greatly while others grow slowly.
As for the easy progress, what level do you play at? I've tried Lt. Commander/Commander and with aggressive civs I've had a few legitimate struggles.
I find that a lot of the ability of the other civs to expand depends on their starting system. I've played more than 5 games between 3.xx and 4.xx (not all the way through) and each time a couple different civs will expand greatly while others grow slowly.
I am looking forward to the Mirror Universe scenario's! 
btw, I was thinking, for the Terran Empire starting, wouldnt it make sense to add the Defiant to their starting forces? because it seems realistic for them and it makes sense (even if it gives them overpower :/)
btw, I was thinking, for the Terran Empire starting, wouldnt it make sense to add the Defiant to their starting forces? because it seems realistic for them and it makes sense (even if it gives them overpower :/)
deanej
Deity
The first one takes place just after "In a Mirror, Darkly", so they'll have the Defiant (though won't be able to build more until researching the tech needed to build it normally). Soval will have magically risen from the dead, as I don't feel like inventing a new leader for the rebels.
Those scenarios will be unique in that they will essentially be pre-defined starts on the regular game with custom civs/units. You'll actually be able to tech up to the end of the game normally.
Might as well post the rest of 4.0's design doc while we're at it:
Scenarios:
-Mirror: Rise of the Terran Empire (2155, turn 35)
--Terram Empire (Sato), Rebellion (Soval), Tholians (generic), Klingons (Duras), Romulans (Valdore)
-Mirror: Fall of the Terran Empire (2280, turn 94)
--Terran Empire (Spock), Cardassia (Skrain Dukat)/Klingon (Chang) (team), Romulus (Nanclus), Tholia (generic)
-Mirror: The Terran Resistance (2373, turn 270)
--Terran Resistance (O'Brian), Alliance (Worf), Romulus (Neral), Tholia (generic)
Those scenarios will be unique in that they will essentially be pre-defined starts on the regular game with custom civs/units. You'll actually be able to tech up to the end of the game normally.
Might as well post the rest of 4.0's design doc while we're at it:
Scenarios:
-Mirror: Rise of the Terran Empire (2155, turn 35)
--Terram Empire (Sato), Rebellion (Soval), Tholians (generic), Klingons (Duras), Romulans (Valdore)
-Mirror: Fall of the Terran Empire (2280, turn 94)
--Terran Empire (Spock), Cardassia (Skrain Dukat)/Klingon (Chang) (team), Romulus (Nanclus), Tholia (generic)
-Mirror: The Terran Resistance (2373, turn 270)
--Terran Resistance (O'Brian), Alliance (Worf), Romulus (Neral), Tholia (generic)
Admiral_Rockso
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2010
- Messages
- 13
I have played as the Borg on smaller maps then the galaxy, and the ease at witch they overwhelm other civs early on is amazing, but without anyone to conquer they wouldn't have any teeth when they meet up with anyone else in the galaxy scenario. Adding a host of barbarian cities for them to acquire tech would make sense, as they should be as frightening as they are in the shows and movie.
The collective should be able to research, they should also gain new advances when they conquer. This would be consistent with Star Trek lore i feel. I found it sort of a bummer when playing the Borg and assimilating a world only to gain some of the first tier techs.
I don't envy you trying to even the playing field when it comes to them. My advice is don't. The Borg are supposed to be the big bad of the universe. I've played a 4.0 beta game on a smaller map and the Borg were everywhere, conquering everything in sight. It was a great motivator. My only suggestion is at the end of the tech tree adding something like ablative armor and transphasic torpedoes. At a certain point there truly seems to be nothing you can do other then sit back and wait for assimilation.
The collective should be able to research, they should also gain new advances when they conquer. This would be consistent with Star Trek lore i feel. I found it sort of a bummer when playing the Borg and assimilating a world only to gain some of the first tier techs.
I don't envy you trying to even the playing field when it comes to them. My advice is don't. The Borg are supposed to be the big bad of the universe. I've played a 4.0 beta game on a smaller map and the Borg were everywhere, conquering everything in sight. It was a great motivator. My only suggestion is at the end of the tech tree adding something like ablative armor and transphasic torpedoes. At a certain point there truly seems to be nothing you can do other then sit back and wait for assimilation.
I would agree that they should have some limited research capacity in addition to their ability to get new tech from conquest.
I feel the Borg should be powerful, but not an unstoppable killer force that ruins the game 9/10 games I've played. It's miserable to invest 3-4+ hrs into a game to realize that 1/3 the galaxy is being over run and no matter what there is nothing to do but die. Maybe if the AI would actually come together to fight the onslaught it could be fun, but otherwise I don't like them in their current state. I've fought and won against the Borg, but that was the exception.
My 'solution' is to make the Borg more or less even until Light IV tech, then make their ships powerful but also expensive to build, limiting the Borg Cube rush fiasco.
I feel the Borg should be powerful, but not an unstoppable killer force that ruins the game 9/10 games I've played. It's miserable to invest 3-4+ hrs into a game to realize that 1/3 the galaxy is being over run and no matter what there is nothing to do but die. Maybe if the AI would actually come together to fight the onslaught it could be fun, but otherwise I don't like them in their current state. I've fought and won against the Borg, but that was the exception.
My 'solution' is to make the Borg more or less even until Light IV tech, then make their ships powerful but also expensive to build, limiting the Borg Cube rush fiasco.
deanej
Deity
Did not know the AI was actually effective at using them. It'll probably be really scary at release then, because the power rating changes will likely make the Borg AI more willing to go to war!
In this case I think I'll leave them where they are in The Galaxy. I don't need to make the Delta Quadrant civs unplayable.
Btw, the lack of research isn't to balance them - it's to more accurately reflect that the Borg gain technology by assimilation.
In this case I think I'll leave them where they are in The Galaxy. I don't need to make the Delta Quadrant civs unplayable.
Btw, the lack of research isn't to balance them - it's to more accurately reflect that the Borg gain technology by assimilation.
Marla McGivers
Chieftain
jfby said:
I play on Lt Commander, mainly because I enjoy playing the game rather than rushing to win (or lose!) it.
I do enjoy having barbarians in all my games. It adds the spice of combat and uncertainty without needing to be at war with neighbouring civilisations, but while in normal Civ the barbarians are manageable by the AI civs in Star Trek they run wild and knock out the races quickly.
It's quite scary to open the worldbuilder and see the map swarming with hostile ships and this is without having Aggressive ticked or the challenge of cities for them as well!!
They seem to improve their ships so quickly as well. Often having Light I-II while the AI races are still with warp 7 ships only.
It's sad because I have to play without the barbarians or find that half of the civs the game starts with are eliminated within 200 turns or so.
With so much fog of war I can't really see a good way to keep them and avoid this problem, perhaps limiting them to Warp 7 ships at best or giving everyone else's ships say a 50% bonus against them?
Regarding the Borg, I absolutely agree that from a realism point of view the Borg gain knowledge by assimilation (stated quite clearly in the Voyager episode "Scorpion") but I also recall that they do NOT assimilate inferior races/ships (Seven of Nine commenting that the Kazon were ignored for being "unworthy of assimilation")which would not add to their "perfection" so would it be possible to configure it so the AI recognises which civs are technologically inferior and leave them alone until they become more "interesting" (or of course attack them!) ?
Marla x
deanej
Deity
I'll post something in the Final Frontier Plus forum about this. This is NOT intended barbarian behavior and I'm suprised that nobody has caught it before now!
deanej
Deity
I hope to have that fixed for release; I'm waiting on a reply to the post in the Final Frontier Plus forum. I can't believe this hasn't been reported until now; "Barbarians are tough" isn't enough, given that it is intended for barbs to be stronger than in regular civ (with the fog of war, it's pretty much a given), but not THAT tough!
I agree, The Borg are cool as they are. But, may I make an interesting suggestion. Would it be possable to do something with the Future Janeway Virus that she infected the Borg with? Like make it a researchable tech that allows ships to get a promotion that'll cause like alittle damage, or something to a single Borg unit that successfully captures an enemy unit?
deanej
Deity
I can be done in the SDK. I don't plan on any changes to 4.0 now (I did adjust some XML numbers for barb spawning; in addition to reducing the amount of barbs spawned, it will allow them to spawn cities). I don't know what, if anything, can be done about the Light II vs. Warp 7 problem except to mention that the barbs spawn based on the game's era, not the player's era, so if you have a couple civs that are way ahead of the others you're going to see stuff like that.
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