5CC Space Race interest thread

[sk8boardbob2]

Wow that got ugly fast. Spoon if you're talking about the starting saves, it should be normal aggressiveness. Even with the departure of Sashie, we have 4 people which more than enough to start a 5CC. Overseer you have to green light to start the first 20 turns.

Roster
TheOverseer714 (up)
sk8boardbob2
del62
DWetzel

 

[DWetzel]

Pretty sure I've seen an AI plop down a city right next a colony with a unit on it before.

Well, sure. To be more precise three crusdaers are normally necessary to block the enemy settler. If you really really have somethng precious, it's easy enough to build a box AROUND the colony with eight crusaders. They'll typically settle two squares away from your colony then.

from Then you just need to make sure that city doesn't have a border expansion, which typically it won't for quite a while. If it's really something that worries you, or if they're about to build another city on the other side and pick up the gap in between, well, you do have eight crusaders in the area.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Sashie, I hate to see you go. I was looking forward to seeing how you play. I have always felt free to ignore unwanted advice from "the peanut gallery" and use what is applicable to the game at hand. I am looking at games as fun first, then worrying about score, launch dates, win dates, etc. as very much side issues. In the 5CC that went on so long because we had so many wars, that was really fun. You probably won't set any records with a 5CC anyway, so have fun playing. If you set a certain someone on iggy, could you come back? I promise to not respond any to that person here in this thread. Maybe if we start a new thread, it might be better? Anyway, I am a veteran of these things, having been the offender at times and being offended at other times. It all becomes water under the bridge if you let it. Whatever you do, I respect the decision you make.

 

[Spoonwood]

I don't understand "standing by arguments" without any sort of support for them.

I do understand prefering a slower research paced, more militaristic game as more fun.

Anyways, for the team at least realize that you can win this sort of game probably without ANY native resources or colonies for resources on a pangea map, or maybe with just one industrial age resource. You don't need to take my word on that. You can check the afore-referenced saves and find a 5CC game without any native resources save coal. Who cares who played it?

 

[TheOverseer714]

Guys, I will start this tomorrow afternoon, once the Christmas activities are over. Tonight is movie night.

 

[Optional]

I'll be following this one. Here, have some peanuts, Aabraxan!

 

[TheOverseer714]

Houston, we have a problem. The first move reaveals that we are on a 2-tile lake. The settler would need at least 3 moves to settle an oceanside tile. At this level, not fatal, but a significant disadvantage. I am going to settle though, there may be an oceanside tile near enough that our second city can build the Colossus.

 

[darski]

lurker's comment: I hope to follow this game as I like this type of play... as a reader.

The challenge is that poster so I will see how it starts. there's no charge for not following a game after all.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Heya Darski. Hopefully we'll give you a good show. Speaking of which, I played the first 20 turns, I think we can play this one out. I will post the turnlog, pictures and save in awhile.

Here is the Turn-log:

Spoiler :

Pre-flight: CivAssist 2, Word running. Get the save loaded. Look things over.

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Move settler south, revealing that the ocean inlet is actually a 3-tile lake. Move worker SE, revealing hills. This will have plenty of shields and commerce. We can build the Colossus elsewhere. Scout moves east, revealing more hills and possibly Incense.

IBT: Absolutely nothing happens.

Turn 1, 3950 BC: Settle our Capital, set production to a scout. Begin Alphabet at 100%, due in 34 turns. Scout moves East, revealing more Bonus grass, another river and a few forested tiles. The shield and commerce potential is very good.

IBT: Nada.

Turn 2, 3900 BC: Scout reveals possible tundra.

IBT: Nada +1.

Turn 3, 3850 BC: Scout reveals forested tundra and a long shoreline.
Build the Colossus in this area?

IBT: Nada +2.

Turn 4, 3800 BC: MM to get 2nd scout in 1 turn.

IBT: Moscow Scout=>Warrior.

Turn 5, 3750 BC: Scout 2 goes north, finding plains. First scout follows coast back west.

IBT: Nada.

Turn 6, 3700 BC: Scout 2 finds a range of hills along the river.

IBT: Worker finishes mining BG, start roading.

Turn 7, 3650 BC: Scout 2 finds a goody hut, I was beginning to worry.
Scout 1 finds a good possible city site that would be good for the Colossus.

IBT: Moscow Warrior=>Warrior.

Turn 8, 3600 BC: Scout 2 pops the goody hut, and we have a new city! It isn’t where I would want it to be, wasting a Cow and a game forest. Settler abandoning might be the best course. Start building a Scout there.

IBT: Nada.

Turn 9, 3550 BC: Scouts find nothing of interest.

IBT: Worker finishes road on BG tile.

Turn 10, 3500 BC: Scout 1 finds Furs south of St. Peteersburg. Move worker to other BG

IBT: Moscow gets a border expansion

Turn 11, 3450 BC: Scout 2 finds a desert and 4 floodplain tiles.

IBT: MoscowWarrior=>Barracks.

Turn 12, 3400 BC: Scout 2 finds a pink border, possibly France or the Inca.

IBT: Nada.

Turn 13, 3350 BC: Scout 2 finds 2 Ivory near that city.

IBT: Nada +1.

Turn 14, 3300 BC: Meet the roughly dressed but ever so charming Joan of Arc. Trade her Pottery for Alphabet and 10 gold. She also has Masonry too, but has the secrets stuffed in her bra. She needs wooing. If wooing doesn’t work, Paris might be a nice additional city.

IBT: St. Petersburg Scout=>Settler.

Turn 15, 3250 BC: Realize that I forgot to change tech to something else, we are researching Warrior Code. Decide to leave it there, the AIs love military tech.

IBT: Nada.

Turn 16, 3200 BC: Nada.

IBT: Worker finishes mining BG.

Turn 17, 3150 BC: Begin roading that tile.

IBT: Nada.

Turn 18, 3100 BC: Scout 3 finds another goody hut.

IBT: Nada+1.

Turn 19, 3050 BC: Goody hut gives us 25 gold.

IBT: Worker finishes road on BG.

Turn 20, 3000 BC: Scout 1 finds another goody hut. Move worker to another BG.

Non-Combat
Workers 1
Scouts 3

Military units:
Warriors 2

Total units 6
Allowed units 8
Support cost 0

Contacts
France. 1 city, 0 cash, up Masonry

Cities
Moscow, Size 2, growth in 2, Barracks in 1 turn.
St. Petersburg, Size 1, growth in 5, Settler in 10 turns.

Sliders
10/0/0, Warrior Code in 4 turns at 0 gpt, 45 in the bank.

Pictures:

Spoiler :

The east:

The West:

The North:

A preliminary dotmap:

We have much to discuss. Free city is good, location is between a good tile and a great tile, using neither, which is bad. I recommend settler abandonment with resettling 1 SE to use the cow. Next, build the city with the floodplains next or build at the river delta to our south and start on the Colossus? Then, build the Barracks in Moscow, or switch to a granary? Last: should we build 6 Archers and go grab Paris? It would nail down 2 luxury tiles with 2 culture expansion. Other things to ponder will probably come up, I'm sure.

The save:

 

[DWetzel]

In terms of city sites, here is what I like (too lazy to do a real dotmap):

I would combine your two eastern sites with a city E-E-E-NE of Moscow--at least five BGs, probably more, and a river, and some forests.

I'd actually move St. Pete 2SE from its current location (again, exactly 0 overlap with Moscow there) to pick up the cow, a couple of lake spots (not great for production, but good for science), lots of river, etc.

I'd put a city 3NW of where St. Pete is now, to pick up the game forest, a lot of BGs, etc. No river, which I admit sucks ass, but this would be a powerful shield producer for us.

It's too bad that any of the coastal locations we could have just suck so bad. The other thought I would have on that is to put a city on the hill at the river mouth just south of Moscow, let Colossus go up there, and settler-abandon (or just abandon-abandon) Moscow itself for a location roughly N-NW (or N - NW - NW) of its current location.

That would give us five pretty decent sites, including a viable Colossus town with good commerce (ocean, river, tobacco, fish) that would have enough shields later to pick up Cop' and Newton's. Cities would be:

3NW of St. Pete
2SE of St. Pete
Colossus town on the river mouth hill
Site in the far east on the river bend
Relocated Moscow to the north

 

[DWetzel]

Oh, and I wouldn't worry too terribly much about going to take Paris. We wouldn't want to keep it for any real length of time, would we? And if we're not going to take it, I'd rather not take them out, because we won't ever be able to get the ivory and keep it.

Of our possible neighbors, I think France is a great one to have. Won't grow too quickly, no worrisome UU, and they'll make a nice trading partner.

On the plus side, I bet they road up the ivory soon enough that with proper machinations, we might be able to get the SoZ after an ivory trade.

 

[Optional]

The other thought I would have on that is to put a city on the hill at the river mouth just south of Moscow, let Colossus go up there, and settler-abandon (or just abandon-abandon) Moscow itself for a location roughly N-NW (or N - NW - NW) of its current location.

Lurker's comment: Not such a bad one, that. Then keep Moscow until the Colossus is actually finished, so that the Colossus town profits from low corruption and a few of Moscow's BG's.
At Overseer's original blue dot for Colossus I'm afraid you might not beat the seafaring civs to it.

 

[del62]

Perhaps we shouldnt worry too much about colossus if its not really pratical, would it be nice to rob joan of her ivory?

The advantage of overseers position for St Petes is that eventually when culture 1000 the furs will be within the borders

 

[DWetzel]

Perhaps we shouldnt worry too much about colossus if its not really pratical, would it be nice to rob joan of her ivory?

The advantage of overseers position for St Petes is that eventually when culture 1000 the furs will be within the borders

For a space game, the Colossus (with the commerce) will speed things up substantially. Plus, moving Moscow actually gives us five pretty good city sites, where I'm not certain we have them otherwise. I hate Overseer's proposed Colossus site (lack of anything good around it, tundra, etc), plus it pinches on the other good sites available in that direction.

It would be nice to scout around Paris a bit to see if it really is an exceptional city site--even so, IT would need to get some serious culture to get the ivory. Plus corruption due to distance, blah blah blah, plus it'd be hard to defend being so isolated. All in all, I don't like the idea of trying to keep it.

 

[Optional]

Lurker's comment: What is it you would achieve by attacking Paris? Are you okay with the Statue of Zeus being built somewhere, but not in Paris? Or is this just about getting another domestic lux in?
I assume you don't want to build it yourself; you'll have your hands full building military in Moscow and perhaps another town, while also building the Colossus?

If you do want to get the Statue, you're probably best trying to trade for the Ivory - Paris needs only one culture expansion - or try to capture Paris when it has just built it, but of course you can't tell whether Paris will get it, or even whether it will start the build.

 

[TheOverseer714]

It is kind of an awkward map for our particular needs, isn't it? The dotmap I made was just one idea. As far as Paris goes, I think 6 Archers would have a chance. Its what I would do on my own. If we end up with no luxes of our own, this will take a long time to win, and that Fur tile is iiffy at best. Winnable, possibly, but a quick win, not. With this map, we'll be lucky to launch by 1900 if we take some luxes. With no luxes at all, we won't make it before time runs out.

 

[Spoonwood]

I think this map very launchable by 1900, if not 1800, without taking any luxuries or having the Colossus. Even if you disbanded Moscow to get a spot where you might build it, that city will have corruption, unless you disband both St. Petersburg and Moscow simultaneously, and found the possible Colossus site first. With respect to not having luxuries, you can put in temples, cathedrals, and colosseums in the middle ages for happiness, along with Sistine's and maybe Bach's. In the industrial ages more luxuries should appear for trade. On top of all this you have a possible map with rivers for all 5 cities, though maybe you want the eastern site a square north so it doesn't have any hills. I'll probably delete this picture soon.

 

[DWetzel]

Major problems with that dotmap:

1. Zero coastal cities = no harbors = easily disrupted trade routes in event of wars, even ones that we don't have any involvement it. Also, harbor cities make for nice science towns. We'll definitely want a clean rep.

2. That northernmost city site is, to me, very very meh.

 

[DWetzel]

It is kind of an awkward map for our particular needs, isn't it? The dotmap I made was just one idea. As far as Paris goes, I think 6 Archers would have a chance. Its what I would do on my own. If we end up with no luxes of our own, this will take a long time to win, and that Fur tile is iiffy at best. Winnable, possibly, but a quick win, not. With this map, we'll be lucky to launch by 1900 if we take some luxes. With no luxes at all, we won't make it before time runs out.

That fur tile should be fairly easily securable, actually. Colony early, bash anyone that tries to settle it (or surround it with cheap units), and in the late game the cultural expansion of the nearby town plus just a couple of well-placed units should prevent any chance of it going away.

The other bit of good news is that if things break right, it's easy to trade that lux for two (or a lux + cash), since we won't be that large.

 

[sk8boardbob2]

I think at this point it would easier to just forget about the Colossus since it would most likely involve abandoning both cities we have now. The most it can add is 21 gpt which isn't that great. If we make a science farm near the floodplains, we can get 5 scientists in despostism and 7 in republic which turns out to be the same as the Colossus but without the mess of moving cities and building/getting beat to a wonder. Not to mention the realistic maximum benefit of the Colossus is 12 since we won't have a metro until Shakes at the earliest.