DWetzel said:
Really, given the choice of only one or the other of KT or Sistine, I might actually prefer KT, as weird as that sounds. One trick in this, assuming you aren't going for the totally peaceful route, is defending resource colonies (yes, we'll want colonies, if only for luxuries). And there's nothing that says "stay off my luxury" like a fortified Crusader in his own little fortress.
Pretty sure I've seen an AI plop down a city right next a colony with a unit on it before.
Sashie VII said:
Why are you being so aggressive with this?
It appears to help draw out ideas better. And see below
Sashie VII said:
Why not? Trading is good and everything, but if the team have our own, would that not be better?
Not necessarily. If you take territory with worse food/production tiles for horses or iron, then you probably slow down your research.
Sashie VII said:
It's naive to think that we will not need/want to war before Steam Power.
I actually find your statement quite naive here. In a space race game the usual sort of warmonger argument goes that going to war gives you more citizens which produce a little more science in semi-corrupt areas, especially with courthouses and/or police stations, and also scientist farms in too corrupt areas. But how will war help make things better in a space game when you can't capture more cities or plant more cities? Make no mistake I've warred myself in at least one space game, as you can see
here if you like. But as I recall I actually warred AFTER Steam Power and I spent most of the middle ages putting in markets, pre-building universities, Cope's and Newton's, and training an army in the high middle ages. As I recall my demi-god 5cc game I attacked a single time with an immortal to trigger my GA, and I didn't fight another battle the whole entire game.
Sashie VII said:
You don't expect what little military power we'll have to be made up entirely of Archers/Longbows until then, surely?
If I had 5 cities with more potential food and production, I'd much rather take having archers, spears, and trebuchets than a weaker set of 5 city spots with cannons, cavalry, and muskets. How does having those units help research in a 5cc?
Sashie VII said:
We can't wait until an AI ambush to start getting iron/horses and build units.
What ambush? Keep the AIs attitude in check. Sell techs for gpt to keep them happy. Establish embassies to boost attitude also, and maybe even sign an RoP or two. If you don't have an RoP also, the AIs will have to move a unit or two inside your territory before they attack, so you can switch builds. If worried about a war, sign military alliances against them. The AIs have a habit of heading for the weakest units around and they don't upgrade. So if you have a MA with Germany against France and France has a knight in your territory with a Germany archer at 1/4 somewhere else, the AI will often ignore your city and go for the archer. Or try emptying out a city in the middle of your empire. As I recall DWetzel and I once had a war where the AI would pass our well-defened border cities and go for an inner city where we didn't have any defense.
Sashie VII said:
There, your second sentence answered your first. Are you suggesting that we research everything on the tech screen ourselves? I know you'll say "trade!". But we
may or may not have enough resources to trade for it. In which case, the ability to go along the pointy-stick route, especially for techs that we may not want to spend resources researching, would help tremendously.
Sell techs for gpt and buy techs for gpt if needed. Consider WAITING for a tech for a few turns, like say Feudalism if only one AI learns it. Take waiting all the out to Astronomy and Banking even if you can't trade away. Consider even trading your *only* source of iron/saltpeter/horses if you won't need it within 20 turns. If an AI learns a tech it becomes cheaper. So if you have no techs to trade and have no other research options to trade for it (like say you've gone to Banking and Astronomy and you don't have Gunpowder and you can't use Banking/Astronomy, because you used them to get to Invention), either consider just researching it a little bit behind in tech *or* turn the research slider to 0%, buy a tech for as little gpt as possible, then crank up research as much as you can and go for the next tech.
Even if you say had to pay 54 gpt to Gunpowder, you might beat the AI to Chemistry at 2 or 3 ticks lower on the slider, because they might decide to research Printing Press, Democracy, or Economics, or more likely Navigation. Then sell Chemistry back for as much gpt as you can get to that AI. If it took you 14 turns to learn Chemistry, you often enough can still get about 54 gpt back from the AI for 20 turns, as the AI reads more gpt until the deal expires and computes according to that, with seemingly no knowledge of how long the deal lasts. Post-ancient age that tends to work.
Failing all that (which I don't see happening at Monarch in a team game), just buy techs and limp along the middle ages until the industrial ages. Worst case scenario you would have all scientific opponents and they would draw and trade with themselves for all first 3 industrial techs, while you trailed them by a few turns. I've never had that happen. But, even if that would happen you might snag Electricity first. As a more "usual" sort of catch up, the AIs don't value Medicine and fall all too quickly for Communism and Fascism instead of even Steam Power or Industrialization... they simply die in the industral ages. In short, DON'T SWEAT IT IF YOU FALL BEHIND IN THE MIDDLE AGES. Especially as Russia. See the first page of my previously referenced HoF thread. In my Deity standard SS game with Sumeria, I had some problems in the high middle ages after the GL expired (which I tried to expire ASAP actually), but I drew Nationalism as my free tech, which I sold for nice gpt and traded for other techs also. I remember once playing a Sid game as Korea 20k shoot, which I turned to diplomatic, where I trailed in the high middle ages, but caught up partially with my free tech and partially by trading and soon lead the rest of the industrial ages.
As a more problematic and realistic sort of situation, I'll quote my notes on an empire-wide Zulu Deity space game (3 levels above Monarch, so I expect I had more of a challenge research-wise than a Monarch 5CC) I played a while back:
"The ancient ages seemed to go along swimmingly. I started on the Forbidden Palace later than I should have and that didn't help anything, but I went Alphabet-Writing-Philosophy-CoL as freebie, The Republic which I paritally bought from China I believe, then Currency and managed to get into the middle ages either slightly ahead or with the lead AI. Not sure if I traded for all of Literature, researched part of it, or all of it. I forgot to revolt to The Republic until 5-8 turns after I had learned it, but I managed things o.k. So, it all looked good.
Until the middle ages that is. I had quite a bit of jungle to clear. So, I trained a ton of workers. I didn't really have much time for military early on. My 10 AD save says I have 51 workers and 8 warriors, for 59 total units with 31 units allowed. I hand counted 41 jungle squares still left to get cleared (anyone want a picture?) and 2 marsh squares still to get cleared, and I know I had cleared some out before that. I didn't have all too many coastal cities either. Add that all up, and you'll know that infrastructure came in quite slowly. How slowly?
Well, things in the middle ages overall got so rough really that I had to buy almost all of the techs with gpt *and* with my only source of iron/saltpeter. Or use a luxury source and hope to pick it up elsewhere. Then, I'd have to keep the science slider at 0 and do good ole lone scientist research [then turn research back up as soon as I could]. I went Monotheism-Theology-Education... I think I bought Chemistry, although maybe I researched part of it.
After Education I reserached Banking (I didn't have Astronomy yet), which I believe I started in 90 BC and finished in 290 AD. I believe the Aztecs learned it the same turn I did, but no one else did. I knew Mao had started on Newton's. Sounds bad, right? Well, I managed to pick up Metallurgy, Astronomy, Physics, Theory of Gravity, and Magnetism on that turn via buying tech with gpt and selling Banking, catapulting myself and Mao into the industrial age (check the save if you like for what it looked like after the deals). I used some tax collectors to make the final deal with Mao. I somehow still had 580 gold left in the treasury, but after I swapped my citizens back to working tiles, I still had negative gpt for a bit. So, in 290 AD I started on Steam Power. 24 turns later in 530 AD I learned Steam Power ahead of the sluggish AI, started a little railing (I had jungle, so I had two sources of coal, until one depleted after I didn't need it anymore), and sold Steam Power for gpt so that I had +154 gpt at 100% science with Industrialization due in 9 turns."
That game I played against 4 opponents, so each of them had LARGE empire. I doubt Steam Power will take you guys 24 turns, and I doubt the AIs can get there that fast, even if they already have Nationalism in almost all games, except for some Sid games. So, I see no need to worry about trailing a little bit in a Monarch 5CC space game, save for the modern age of course.
Sashive VII said:
This is 5CC buddy. We can leave the AIs trailing, sure, but not by that much. And certainly not in the Ancient Age.
In my 5CC demi-god game with Persia I actually did trail quite a bit in the ancient ages. I remember building the Great Library and feeling that I really needed it. The modern age comes as the only real problem, as the AIs may have grown enough by then and finally started to benefit fromt their wide-city spacing.
Sashie VII said:
Again, this is Monarch. AIs won't have much gpt to spare.
Yes and no. It's Monarch, but once they have Banking for a while, on a standard map, they will (tiny makes for a different story). The overall tech pace will go slower than an empire-wide game, so the AI has more time to grow and get markets/banks up, as well as road their territory.
Sashie VII said:
Your trade-for-everything approach is too simplistic.
And what's your evidence of this? Also, how does what I described above really come as all that simplistic?
Sashive VII said:
Special mention on roading the AI's territory. Are we going to send a worker or two all the way across the world to road something and then back? Unnecessary hardship. We won't have many workers to spare.
That all depends on movement possibilities. With rails in AI territory, and without units blocking your path, with an RoP it takes no time at all. You can always train more workers, and tax a little more if needed.
Sashie VII said:
Let me rephrase that: in a 5CC with *any* VC, all cities *will* work all 20 tiles after hospitals are available.
I don't see that happening in a conquest 5CC.
Sashie VII said:
Resource-poaching towns will need to be razed. Ambitious AIs seeking to bully us will need to be fought (although this is more of a case-to-case basis). And while we're at it, captive slaves will lessen the dependance on native workers (who cost precious gold to maintain).
Razing leads to ALL AIs liking you less thus increasing the probability of unwanted attacks. Slaves take longer to finish jobs. The faster worker speed usually pays off in terms of upkeep. You can also buy slaves.
Sashive VII said:
Especially in the Ancient Age, we may need at one point to beat a tech or two out of AIs, especially if we focus on one path.
???? I simply find it hard to imagine a situation where one would pull off the Republic slingshot and then needing to beat a tech out of the AI in the ancient age. Or even getting to Philosophy first and needing to do such. Alphabet-Writing-Code of Laws-Philosophy-Republic-Literature-Currency and trade for the rest (maybe Maths-Currency-Construction). Building the Great Library also EXTREMELY RARELY poses any sort of problem on Monarch whatsoever. I did use it in my Demi-God 5cc space game, and I felt sure that I needed it at the time, and I know other players have used it in limited city games to good effect. Oh, I didn't use any colonies there, as I recall. I posted two saves
here
Sashie VII said:
OCC is different. OCC 20K is even more different. We won't want to build every single wonder, just the ones that benefit us.
As I recall, *every* single ancient age wonder can benefit you as it can become a tourist attraction. So can Sistine's, Bach's, Newton's, Cope's, and I think Shakespeare's Theater and maybe even Magellan's or Smith's? An extra turn off a tech for 15 to 30 some techs seems like a better overall investment than getting Polytheism six turns earlier by extortion or signing a military alliance with "gpt" for the tech, which promptly expires when you exterminate the opponent tribe on the same turn... which I can't even imagine as necessary if you get to Philosophy first. A city with Shake's doesn't necessarily need a cathedral and colosseum if you have enough luxuries, as I recall.
)
I also like a strict 5CC, it would be much simpler.
