[Complex] (6-02) Improve Pledge of Protection's Impact on the Game

[adan_eslavo]

I think it's unclear whether "Bonus" items are part of your what you're proposing or things you/we might want to add later. One of them reads as "we could add this if we wanted to", the other reads as "this is also included in the changes I'm suggesting". Proposals shouldn't include "nice to haves", everything needs to be direct "we are adding this" or "we are not adding this".

I would suggest just dropping them from this proposal, and putting them up for a vote in the future if you think they're still needed. Individual members can't add options to their own proposals.

I will leave them. I dropped the "bonus" prefix to be more clear that they are the consistent part of the proposal.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Added case for 6-03a proposal, so when it passes, my small correction will be overriden.

 

[adan_eslavo]

By the way, in my recent game I attacked a City-State protected by 2 other much more powerful civilizations. They did literally nothing towards protected CS. If I recal that correclty, there were even no diplo popup of any kind that they are mad at me, so this part of the game definitely needs some care.

 

[Recursive]

I removed the mention of the PTP Quest being new from the proposal. It already exists.

 

[Recursive]

• other civilizations's (also protecting that City-State) opinions about the defender are increased (+25);
• defender's opinion about the attacker drops drastically (-20; -40 if with DoF; -60 if with DP);

other civilizations's (also protecting that City-State) opinions about the defender are decreased (-25), but only if they decided to defend the City-State (otherwise, nothing happens);

Most diplomacy modifiers are temporary, not permanent. No duration was specified here.

EDIT: The existing diplomacy modifier for attacking a protected City-State is -20, but is increased to -35 if more than one was attacked, and has a duration of 30 base turns (scaling with the civ's Protective bias towards City-States).

You could add +150 recent assist bonus (your recent diplomatic actions please/disappoint them) for the other two for a very similar effect, although it's worth noting that a fair number of actions affect this value.

 

[Recursive]

The major difficulty with sponsoring this proposal is the lack of a Casus Belli system. This is something I plan to eventually add, but is a lot of work.

 

[adan_eslavo]

The major difficulty with sponsoring this proposal is the lack of a Casus Belli system. This is something I plan to eventually add, but is a lot of work.

I don't think Casus Belli is required. Of course when adding Casus Belli this could be easily connected to that system. Can you elaborate?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Most diplomacy modifiers are temporary, not permanent. No duration was specified here.

EDIT: The existing diplomacy modifier for attacking a protected City-State is -20, but is increased to -35 if more than one was attacked, and has a duration of 30 base turns (scaling with the civ's Protective bias towards City-States).

You could add +150 recent assist bonus (your recent diplomatic actions please/disappoint them) for the other two for a very similar effect, although it's worth noting that a fair number of actions affect this value.

I added 30 turns counter to all these relationship changes.
This +150, do you mean the relations between you and that CS?
-20 --> -35 if more: I think this one in my case should be additive, so each attack would add flat value. Now it does not matter if you attakced 2 or 5, right?

Don't hesitate to edit the proposal the way you think it should look like. You have much more experience with diplomacy thatn I am, so you have better feeling of what this values should be.

 

[Recursive]

I don't think Casus Belli is required. Of course when adding Casus Belli this could be easily connected to that system. Can you elaborate?

To elaborate further: a method for "justified war" that would enable bypassing Declarations of Friendship and Defensive Pacts, and include event popups with choices as you describe. That requires a considerable amount of UI work.

I added 30 turns counter to all these relationship changes.
This +150, do you mean the relations between you and that CS?
-20 --> -35 if more: I think this one in my case should be additive, so each attack would add flat value. Now it does not matter if you attakced 2 or 5, right?

Don't hesitate to edit the proposal the way you think it should look like. You have much more experience with diplomacy thatn I am, so you have better feeling of what this values should be.

Recent assist: "Your recent diplomatic actions please/disappoint them" is a modifier that ranges from +30/-30, based on an internal value that ranges from +150/-150. Adding 150 is enough to put you at +30 if you're at 0, or at 0 if you're at -30.

Currently, attacking 2 or 5 City-States makes no difference (although each attack resets the turn counter for the penalty).

 

[adan_eslavo]

To elaborate further: a method for "justified war" that would enable bypassing Declarations of Friendship and Defensive Pacts, and include event popups with choices as you describe. That requires a considerable amount of UI work.


Recent assist: "Your recent diplomatic actions please/disappoint them" is a modifier that ranges from +30/-30, based on an internal value that ranges from +150/-150. Adding 150 is enough to put you at +30 if you're at 0, or at 0 if you're at -30.

Currently, attacking 2 or 5 City-States makes no difference (although each attack resets the turn counter for the penalty).

Ok, I think I understood. I amended the proposal with values you suggested. So when player decides to defend CS, then all other defenders have +30 (+150) value. Two of such actions can brign you up from -30 to +30 and this is maximum, so third action will do nothing.

If you decided not to defend the CS, then the value will drop by -30 (-150), but only with those who decided to defend it. There's no change with those who also declined and left CS alone.

So it's worth to look at what players PoP the CS if we want to boost the dimplomatic relations a bit.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I thought about UI. I really would like to support this, but it may be beyond my abilites, and what's more, I supported few, so this may be too hard for me to make them all, especially I have multiple modmods to handle in the meantime. @Enginseer Can you support the UI here? You have bigger experience than me I suppose. How many proposals did you support?

 

[adan_eslavo]

So I guess this one has to wait for Casus Belli times?

 

[Recursive]

Looks likely. I'll look at integrating something like this when I do my DoContactMajorCivs() rework.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Looks likely. I'll look at integrating something like this when I do my DoContactMajorCivs() rework.

Fingers crossed.