(6-49b) Delete UI Buffs From Tenets, Then Add More Tech Boosts To Each UI

[azum4roll]

Counterproposal of:

[Vote] - (6-49) Unique Improvement Enhancements Reworks

Current : There are three tenets (meaning policies from ideologies) that boost unique improvements besides some other improvements : - Civil Society (Freedom) : Specialists consume 2 :c5food: Food less than normal (minimum 1 Food). Farms, Plantations, Camps and all unique Improvements produce +4...

forums.civfanatics.com

(6-49a) Delete UI Buffs From Tenets

It's a counterproposal to (6-64). Rationale: balancing UIs is a difficult task. @Hinin suggested that different UIs should get different bonuses from ideology tenets, based on the frequency of appearing. But it is based and vary for every map type and settings you use in your games, so in one...

forums.civfanatics.com

Current:
Each ideology has a tenet that boost unique improvements:

• Civil Society (Freedom) : Specialists consume 2 Food less than normal (minimum 1 Food). Farms, Plantations, Camps and all unique Improvements produce +4 Food;
• Five Year Plan (Order) : +20% Production towards all Buildings. Mines, Quarries, Lumber Mill, Oil Well and all unique Improvements produce +3 Production;
• Military-Industrial Complex (Autocracy) : -33% Gold cost for purchasing / upgrading Units. Defensive Buildings, Forts, Citadels and all unique Improvements produce +3 Science.

Problem:
Each unique improvement has different placement rules and thus different rarity. The problem arises when a UI can be so commonly spammed that nearly every worked tile is boosted by these tenets, which may result in having to nerf the base UI yields so it stays balanced.
Taking Eki as an example:
Eki is very spammable, so it has very few tech boosts (+1 at Chivalry, +1 at Fertilizer, +3 at Robotics). Which isn't really much - even with adjacency they aren't very workable tiles after Medieval and before ideology, usually surpassed by Villages and bonus resources. All this is holding back so that the +3 from a tenet (worth more than all tech boosts) doesn't make the UI broken.

Solution (proposal):
Remove the boosts from tenets, and give them to techs where they are more customizable without needing to word out.

• Civil Society (Freedom) : Specialists consume 2 Food less than normal (minimum 1 Food). Farms, Plantations, and Camps produce +4 Food.
• Five Year Plan (Order) : +20% Production towards all Buildings. Mines, Quarries, Lumber Mill, and Oil Well produce +3 Production.
• Military-Industrial Complex (Autocracy) : -33% Gold cost for purchasing / upgrading Units. Defensive Buildings, Forts, and Citadels produce +3 Science.

Tech boosts for each UI:

Unique Improvement (Civilization)	Base yields and Existing tech boosts	Added tech boosts
Brazilwood Camp (Brazil)	Base: 1 (Brazilwood resource also +1 ) Physics: +2 Acoustics: +2 Radio: +2	Industrialization: +2 Brazilwood Camp is actually already very good (the Brazilwood resource itself also gets boosted elsewhere). Despite rare, it only competes with Lumber Mill + its adjacency bonus, so a +2 Production should make it still always worth working.
Siheyuan (China)	Base (during WLTED): 2 2 2 Civil Service: +2 Architecture: +1 Electricity: +1	Electricity => +3 1 Occasionally spammable, has high yields, and already has a boost close to the time you usually take those tenets. Doesn't need that much more.
Chateau (France)	Base: 3 3 2 Printing Press: +1 Flight: +2	Fertilizer: +3 As a naturally high yield improvement, it doesn't really compete with anything. Giving it some food to ease the food+production drain by working these "luxury" tiles.
Eki (Huns)	Base: 1 1 1 , +1 per 2 adjacent Eki Chivalry: +1 (-build time) Fertilizer: +1 Robotics: +3	Gunpowder: +1 Fertilizer => +1 Robotics: removed The boost on Robotics is weird and so late that it almost never takes effect. The added boosts should let it keep up with Villages and improved luxuries better.
Pata-Pata (Inca)	Base: 1 2 , +1 per adjacent Pata-Pata or mountain Civil Service: +1 Fertilizer: +1 Robotics: +3	Civil Service => +1 Fertilizer => +1 Ballistics: +1 (this is when everyone else can walk on mountains) Robotics: removed Pata-Pata follows the tech boosts of Farms, but doesn't get the same on policies that boost Farms. It's time to decouple them, especially now that they aren't named Terrace Farm. This also makes Incan bare hills no longer stuck at 4 Production forever.
Kuna (Maya)	Base: 1 2 Mathematics: +2 Astronomy: +2 Archaeology: +2 Flight: +2	Archaeology => +1 2 Flight => +1 2 As mini Academies in forest/jungle, Kuna misses Production most, but is otherwise very strong throughout the game.
Kasbah (Morocco)	Base: 1 2 2 2 Architecture: +1 Radio: +1	Military Science: +1 They go for this tech for their UU. This should balance out the top ( ) and bottom ( + UU) path for Morocco.
Polder (Netherlands)	Base: 1 2 2 Chemistry: +1 Economics: +1	Biology: +1 Refrigeration: +1 Polder is not competing with any improvements for space, but still need to have higher yields than other improvements to be worth working. All of its boosts are currently in Renaissance, so some yields are added later in the game to let it stay above normal improvements.
Moai (Polynesia)	Base: 1 1 2 BGP, +1 if adjacent to city, +1 per adjacent Moai Engineering: +1 Astronomy: +1 -1 BGP Architecture: +1 -1 BGP Flight: +1	Replaceable Parts: +1 Flight: removed Atomic Theory: +2 Another victim of low lategame yields due to expected tenet boost. Moai at least has a unique yield in Culture and is theoretically always worth working. Basic yields are added lategame to ensure its workability.
Feitoria (Portugal)	Base: 3 4 Printing Press: +2 Astronomy: +2 Industrialization: +2	Radio: +1 High yields, but destroys adjacency and is hard to mass. Gaining a fraction of a tenet boost should be enough for them.
Villa (Rome, unimplemented)	Base: 3 1 1 , +1 per 2 adjacent Farms/Pastures/Plantations Printing Press: +1 Electricity: +1	None. I'm just listing this here for reference. Need actual playtesting to know how balanced this is, and what needs to be added.
Encampment (Shoshone)	Base: 2 1 1 Drama and Poetry: +1 Gunpowder: +1 Rifling: +1 Advanced Ballistics: +1	Ballistics: +2 1 Advanced Ballistics: removed This is fine (finally after all the previous buffs), but Advanced Ballistics is too late, so I'm moving the boost earlier and giving it a slight buff to compensate the loss of tenet boosts.
Hacienda (Spain)	Base: 1 , +3 per adjacent bonus resource, +3 per adjacent strategic resource, +3 per adjacent luxury resource Architecture: +2 Fertilizer: +1	Corporations: +1 We just passed a proposal on this, so pre-Industrial balance should be good. Adding another round of basic yields as tenet compensation. Also finally we can put something else on the Corporations tech. Merge FTW!

Database Changes

 

[Anarcomu]

Imo your are adding new yields type to improvement which design push them towards others. My biggest grips are :

• Brazilwood : It is meant to be a focused improvement, if you want you build lumber-mills, it feels out of place. Additional , or straight looks more natural.
• Eki : You add to an improvement who does not have any sources. Moai also do that, but I'd prefer them to add instead. I don't think that's a good idea. I do like the , though.
• Pata-Pata : looks fine, however it might comes a little too early in Civil service. But feels out of place.
• Kuna : Same idea than for Brazilwood, maybe add some from Theology, but not please. There are already space between them, enough for lumber-mills.
• Moai : I'd be fine with removing from it, but add instead, not more

Ultimately, I don't mind the tenet boosts, every Civ have some preferred tenets, those with UI will just prioritize those tenets more, trade Civ prefer trade routes etc.

 

[Rekk]

I agree that the additions are trying to solve weaknesses of the UIs instead of amplifying their strengths, at the cost of also making the tile harder to read by adding more icons.

 

[azum4roll]

Ultimately, I don't mind the tenet boosts, every Civ have some preferred tenets, those with UI will just prioritize those tenets more, trade Civ prefer trade routes etc.

Only if the UI yields aren't intentionally lowered with the tenets in mind. Your unique component shouldn't force you to take certain tenets to work properly.
I welcome a counterproposal that keeps the tenet boosts but still adds tech boosts to the main offenders like Eki and Pata-Pata.

I agree that the additions are trying to solve weaknesses of the UIs instead of amplifying their strengths, at the cost of also making the tile harder to read by adding more icons.

Some of them are patching weaknesses for the one-dimensional UIs. You always want to work them for the rare yields they provide, at the cost of lacking common yields. In the lategame, adding even more yields of the same type often has diminishing returns, so I think adding yields that they lack is the way to go.
Some of them are compensations for the current tenet boosts, which often add new icon types to the tiles already.
Some of them are compensations for the missing adjacency (of Farms or Lumber Mills) due to placement rules. Technically still patching weaknesses.

Eki adding Gold at Gunpowder: another Food makes them strictly better than fresh water Farm triangles, Culture would be too much, and there's already plenty of Production that will drown out the adjacency bonus.
Pata-Pata adding Science at Ballistics: every other UI has some sort of Science or Culture on it. This is the only UI that gives just the commonest yield types. As it currently stands, mountains are the real Incan UI.

 

[azum4roll]

I sponsor this.

 

[Hinin]

MAGI - This thread has been locked. To continue the discussion, go on the poll thread (6-61).

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.