(8-14) 4UC England

[pineappledan]

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the England civilization.

Spoiler Full kit with 4UC changes :

Spoiler Description of new components and changes to existing kit, differences from base component are underlined: :

UM - Longbowman (replaces Crossbowman):

Unlocked at Machinery​

180 Production Cost​

16 CS, 19 RCS​

2 Range (3 with Range promotion)​

2 movement​

"Range"​

"Assize of Arms" (20% RCS/CS vs Mounted and Armored Units)​

UW - Steam Mill (replaces factory):

Available at Steam Power​

1000 Production cost​

5 maintenance​

Does not require Coal​

+1 Production for every 2 population​

+2 to all Steam Mills on Empire​

+4 Production to nearby Manufactories​

+3 Production and Science to nearby Coal​

10% of building production is converted into Great Engineer Points on completion of any building from Industrial era or later​

2 Engineer specialist slots​

2 Specialists in this city do not generate unhappiness from urbanization​

MAGI: Fixed the old-version typos on Steam Mill

 

[pineappledan]

justification for 4UC additions

Longbowman
This is a vanilla unit reconstituted by 4UC. The longbowman is very strong. Possibly too strong. We consciously decided to give England powerful UUs when designing their extra components.

Steam Mill
The steam was an old VP component that was abandoned after the White tower was adopted as a UNW by the base mod (from 4UC). 4UC and base mod basically traded this component, and so now it makes a return.
A reference to the industrial revolution is a must-have for a more rounded English civ. The Steam Mill gives large bonuses to production and to the generation of Great Engineers.

Both components are fully DLL integrated.

 

[azum4roll]

The Longbowman would be fine if it has an extra base range without the promotion, to contain their power spikes within the era.

 

[FinMc]

I find England a little over tuned, but it's fun when they're an AI to play against so I don't mind.

Free +1 range is crazy, crazy op. But it's fun to play with and challenging to fight against so I think it should stay.

The steam mill is absolutely busted, it stacks way too hard when you have a big empire. The last time I played England I had so much manufacturing power I think I had more than the next 3 civs combined. The "+prod per steam mill" should be toned down somewhat.

 

[Anarcomu]

The bonus production from having a lot of steam mill is the same for every empire, except England does not need coal to achieve it. You can have similar power with Russia (double coal), autocracy (double coal again), Hexxon Refinery corporation (free coal and oil), Centaurus corporation (similar effect) or being lucky with coal placement.

 

[hokath]

I intend to counterpropose this.
You can read the discussion here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/vox-populi-congress-proposal-workshop.683872/post-16609328

God Save the King.

Edit: the counterproposal would be Redcoat instead of Longbowman. Other stuff I would wait for a normal congress.

 

[FinMc]

The bonus production from having a lot of steam mill is the same for every empire, except England does not need coal to achieve it. You can have similar power with Russia (double coal), autocracy (double coal again), Hexxon Refinery corporation (free coal and oil), Centaurus corporation (similar effect) or being lucky with coal placement.

Fair point. Regardless as England I had so much production it was silly, I don't really care how it's nerfed but at the moment English industry is a little broken.

 

[hokath]

Here is a playable England rework.
The 25% spy increase is gone, partly because I can't easily move it onto the building and more significantly because in my playtest the spies generated enough yields anyway.
I found it much improved. The combination of bonuses on the Redcoat is fun to play with and feels really strong.

UA -- Perfidious Albion
Civilian Units are Invisible and ignore rival borders. Naval Units cost 25% less Maintenance and gain +1% Strength for every Tile away from the Capital (up to 30%) and +1 Movement. (strikethrough part NYI, needs DLL change)

UU2 -- Redcoat (replaces Fusilier) --> this is instead of Longbowman <--
Rule Britannia - When embarked, gain +2 Visibility Range and +100% CS when defending. Ignore Terrain Costs. Lost on Upgrade
Sun Never Sets - +1% Strength for every Tile away from the Capital (up to 30%) and +1 Movement. Kept on Upgrade

UB1 -- White Tower (replaces Ironworks)
additions
+100 Spy Points
+Great Admiral points in addition to Gold and Science

 

[Stalker0]

Sorry, 3 range on a base unit is just broken. We have been down this road before, and its simply not balanceable.

 

[FinMc]

Sorry, 3 range on a base unit is just broken. We have been down this road before, and its simply not balanceable.

It's a little ridiculous but it's also of the rare category of "it's OP but it's pretty fun". It's fun to play against England because you have to rush down their archers in a much more aggressive fashion.

And it feels very fun getting longbows up and smashing a neighbor in medieval.

Maybe cleave off a ranged CS or two but I'm generally a fan of civs being balanced because they have strong abilities vs being balanced because everything is nerfed into homogeneity.

 

[Stalker0]

It's a little ridiculous but it's also of the rare category of "it's OP but it's pretty fun". It's fun to play against England because you have to rush down their archers in a much more aggressive fashion.

And it feels very fun getting longbows up and smashing a neighbor in medieval.

Maybe cleave off a ranged CS or two but I'm generally a fan of civs being balanced because they have strong abilities vs being balanced because everything is nerfed into homogeneity.

I respect that but there are abilities that are balanceable and abilities that are not. Range 3 archer units this early crush everything.....everything. A smart human should never lose with this civ, ever.

I am sure it is fun.....who doesn't want to be totally and completely invincible? But that's not balance. There is a different between strong abilities and invincible ones.

 

[Chinag]

Would making the extra range a situational bonus be more reasonable? Like +1 range when Garrisoned or "If you start the turn Fortified".

Or alternatively a bonus referencing how the King pushed for Archery as a cultural activity so they could muster Longbowmen easier in the long-term.

 

[Stalker0]

Would making the extra range a situational bonus be more reasonable? Like +1 range when Garrisoned or "If you start the turn Fortified".

Yeah that I could see. Like a +1 range in forts/citadels/cities I think could be balancable.

 

[Anarcomu]

I like the "fortified" approach. Since you stop fortifying when you shoot, you would need to wait a full turn without shooting to benefit from the extra range. However, it looks like something the AI can barely use.

 

[Rekk]

I respect that but there are abilities that are balanceable and abilities that are not. Range 3 archer units this early crush everything.....everything. A smart human should never lose with this civ, ever.

I am sure it is fun.....who doesn't want to be totally and completely invincible? But that's not balance. There is a different between strong abilities and invincible ones.

Why aren't 4UC players talking about how OP England is? Why is it the outsider who is calling it out?

 

[pineappledan]

I believe I have said myself that England is OP

 

[FinMc]

Why aren't 4UC players talking about how OP England is? Why is it the outsider who is calling it out?

I play exclusively 4UC and I think (and said last week) England is both OP and really fun

 

[hokath]

Why aren't 4UC players talking about how OP England is?

I don't know what thread you're reading, but everyone here is saying Longbowman is too strong?
I'm straight-up proposing to replace it.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Here is a playable England rework.
The 25% spy increase is gone, partly because I can't easily move it onto the building and more significantly because in my playtest the spies generated enough yields anyway.
I found it much improved. The combination of bonuses on the Redcoat is fun to play with and feels really strong.

UA -- Perfidious Albion
Civilian Units are Invisible and ignore rival borders. Naval Units cost 25% less Maintenance and gain +1% Strength for every Tile away from the Capital (up to 30%) and +1 Movement. (strikethrough part NYI, needs DLL change)

UU2 -- Redcoat (replaces Fusilier) --> this is instead of Longbowman <--
Rule Britannia - When embarked, gain +2 Visibility Range and +100% CS when defending. Ignore Terrain Costs. Lost on Upgrade
Sun Never Sets - +1% Strength for every Tile away from the Capital (up to 30%) and +1 Movement. Kept on Upgrade

UB1 -- White Tower (replaces Ironworks)
additions
+100 Spy Points
+Great Admiral points in addition to Gold and Science

I like those redcoats.

 

[FinMc]

Here is a playable England rework.
The 25% spy increase is gone, partly because I can't easily move it onto the building and more significantly because in my playtest the spies generated enough yields anyway.
I found it much improved. The combination of bonuses on the Redcoat is fun to play with and feels really strong.

UA -- Perfidious Albion
Civilian Units are Invisible and ignore rival borders. Naval Units cost 25% less Maintenance and gain +1% Strength for every Tile away from the Capital (up to 30%) and +1 Movement. (strikethrough part NYI, needs DLL change)

UU2 -- Redcoat (replaces Fusilier) --> this is instead of Longbowman <--
Rule Britannia - When embarked, gain +2 Visibility Range and +100% CS when defending. Ignore Terrain Costs. Lost on Upgrade
Sun Never Sets - +1% Strength for every Tile away from the Capital (up to 30%) and +1 Movement. Kept on Upgrade

UB1 -- White Tower (replaces Ironworks)
additions
+100 Spy Points
+Great Admiral points in addition to Gold and Science

These Redcoats sound crazy tanky

I'll try playing a game against them later

Reading is hard