A Babylon 5 Mod for the Final Frontier Mod

[Premier Valle]

Hello everyone!,

Here is the latest ship, the Dilgar Garasoch Class Carrier, it is their second carrier.

• Poly count: 1464
• Animation: B5_CustomFF_CarrierCruiser
• Damage/Glow/Gloss: Yes/Yes/Yes
• FX extra polys: 44

Civilopedia:

Combat:

Damaged:

Centauri Ships
- The Centauri scout is named Corvan not Covran [...]
- Is the Balvarin Carrier not Balvarian [...]
- The Octurian Battleship should be named Octurion instead [...]
- The Primus Valerius is a specific ship not a class. I propose we change this one to the Tertius, which is the latest variant of the Primus. [...]

From my searches in the web while trying to find info/pics for reference of the modelled ships, I found that depending on your source names may vary, these are examples of such. So, when I modelled them, I took the name most appealing to me, I like more Covran/Balvarian, plus these names sound more centaurish to me
I agree on the Octurion.
About the Tertius, I do not have knowledge on this ship, but from your description of it, I agree, tho I would expect it to have fighter capability.

- I couldn't find any info on the Centauri Cruiser Aquila
- I couldn't find any info on the Centauri Adira Capital Ship

The Aquila is a fan-based design (Amras), tho he meant it as a small ship we took the liberty to use it as a capital ship. About the Adira, from what I can remember it was Emperor Mollari's response to the ISA Victory, but there is not much info on it (non-canon).

- The Maximus is a frigate not a capital ship and carries no fighters.

The Maximus being used in the mod is fan-based and was taken from EFNI where it is a capital ship, what kind of information on this ship do you have?

- The Darkner Fast Attack Frigate is a frigate not a capital ship and carries no fighters. I propose we change it to the Amar Fast Carrier which carries 2 wings.

I have no knowledge of a ship class named Amar, could you elaborate a bit more?. The Darkner we are using here is a variant.

- I think in general this should be the idea behind good-vs and bad-vs for the ship classes:

Frigates
+battleships -cruisers

Destroyers
+fighters/bombers -battleships

Cruisers
+destroyers -fighters/bombers

Battleships
+cruisers -fighters/bombers

Carriers(weak in general)
-cruisers +fighters/bombers

I disagree on most of this, will follow up this at a later post.

- Regarding race balance, since this mod is a big what if of the b5 universe; I think the ships need to be more or less equivalent across the races. But they should still have something unique for each faction.

I fully agree on this.

 

[reynanuy]

Another awesome ship model as usual PV. I am really getting into the Dilgar ships, they all look great. Regarding you comments, I have the following to say.

From my searches in the web while trying to find info/pics for reference of the modelled ships, I found that depending on your source names may vary, these are examples of such. So, when I modelled them, I took the name most appealing to me, I like more Covran/Balvarian, plus these names sound more centaurish to me
I agree on the Octurion.
About the Tertius, I do not have knowledge on this ship, but from your description of it, I agree, tho I would expect it to have fighter capability.

As per the information I have on all ships, many have variations which also use variations of their names; but in the case of the ships none of the ship variants fit the names you gave to them. For ship info I use what is considered the ultimate canon info source on ships, which is the B5:Ships of the Galaxy 2ND Edition RPG info book.

The Aquila is a fan-based design (Amras), tho he meant it as a small ship we took the liberty to use it as a capital ship. About the Adira, from what I can remember it was Emperor Mollari's response to the ISA Victory, but there is not much info on it (non-canon).
The Maximus being used in the mod is fan-based and was taken from EFNI where it is a capital ship, what kind of information on this ship do you have?
I have no knowledge of a ship class named Amar, could you elaborate a bit more?. The Darkner we are using here is a variant.

Sadly I don't have the book with me right now, since I am writting this from work. The minute I get home I will post the description for both the Maximus and Amar class of Centauri ships. Maybe I can do better and somehow list all the ships, per class and race, in a brief manner so you guys can take a look at all the info I have. I am just pointing this things out, there is no rule that the mod should be 100% canon; as the premise itself is an AU take on the B5 universe.

 

[Premier Valle]

Hi, just a few comments, I'll be posting on class-capabilities later. (also posting from work )

As per the information I have on all ships, many have variations which also use variations of their names; but in the case of the ships none of the ship variants fit the names you gave to them. For ship info I use what is considered the ultimate canon info source on ships, which is the B5:Ships of the Galaxy 2ND Edition RPG info book.

mmhh, good point on ship variants using names variations... I agree partially on that. I just want that every fully-canon ship (seen on the show) maintains its canon name regardless on whether or not its game capabilities match the canon specs.

Maybe I can do better and somehow list all the ships, per class and race, in a brief manner so you guys can take a look at all the info I have. I am just pointing this things out, there is no rule that the mod should be 100% canon; as the premise itself is an AU take on the B5 universe.

I believe that wont be necessary for the races for which ships have already been modelled, but for those that are still to be done, it would be great.

 

[reynanuy]

Maximus Facts

Large Spacecraft
Defence Value: 14 (–2 size, +6 Handling); Armour: 14;
Handling: +6; Sensors: + 7; Stealth: 16; Stress: 10; Features:
Gravitic Engine, Targeting Computer (+3)
Crew: Centauri Line (+3 BAB, +8 Training); 3 Offi cers, 4
Pilots, 4 Sensor Operators, 17 Crewmen
Structural Spaces: 46 (Cargo 2, Control 5, Crew 3, Engine 19,
Hangar 1, Weapons 16)
Fore Arc Weapons
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Turret Weapons
Particle Gun (Close, Offence 5, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Gun (Close, Offence 5, 2 weapon spaces)
Mk I Interceptor (Close, Offence 3 or Intercept 10, 2 weapon spaces)
Craft (1): 1 Centauri Shuttle

Maximus Flavour

Maximus-class Frigate

A system defence fleet in and of itself, no other single design has been attributed with the successful repulsion of attacking forces from Republic borders more often than the Maximus. A ship designed to be one of the best defensive vessels, with just enough firepower to keep its enemies at bay until help can arrive from the rest of the fleet; this ship is built to resist taking a pounding and has proven its worth on hundreds of occasions.

It is a great honour to serve on a Maximus for two very distinct reasons. One, the crew of a Maximus have high survivability rates. Few Maximus crews are lost in battle and fewer still find themselves replaced due to command errors. The second is actually due to the fact that there a number of war stories from several wars when the Maximus was integral to the victory in a battle or won entire engagements on its own. Even though many are used for system defending, the pride in the chassis itself remains.

Amar Facts

Amar Fast Carrier
Large Spacecraft
Defence Value: 14 (–2 size, +6 Handling); Armour: 12;
Handling: +6; Sensors: + 7; Stealth: 16; Stress: 10; Features:
Gravitic Engine, Jump Point, Targeting Computer (+3)
Crew: Centauri Line (+3 BAB, +8 Training); 4 Offi cers, 8
Pilots, 10 Sensor Operators, 38 Crewmen
Structural Spaces: 55 (Cargo 2, Control 5, Crew 7, Engine 19,
Hangar 6, Weapons 16)
Fore Arc Weapons
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Particle Array (Close, Offence 15, Array, 2 weapon spaces)
Craft (6): 12 Sentri Medium Fighters

Amar Flavour

Darkner-class Fast Attack Frigate

Larger than a Corvan, the Darkner serves well as a swift escort and attack craft with considerable speed and agility to accomplish a great deal even in the thick of a full-scale space battle. The weapon allocations of a Darkner are impressive but not overwhelming, so they usually fight in pairs or trios to cover each other and amass concentrated fire against larger or more important foes. A squadron focussing its many battle lasers upon a single target is something to be feared and respected, even by G’Quan or Omega captains.

There was at one time a precedent to try and make new varieties of every ship in the Republic armada. One such variant that emerged after the tragedies of the Earth-Minbari War was the ‘fast carrier’ version of the Darkner called the Amar. Losing the punch of its parent ship, the Amar was best served being used as a commercial escort or reconnaissance carrier.

As you guys can see the Amar-class Fast Carrier is a variation of the Darkner-class Fast Atack Frigate. The carrier variation of the class is just larger and carries anti-fighter weapons.

 

[Premier Valle]

Hello!,

As you guys can see the Amar-class Fast Carrier is a variation of the Darkner-class Fast Atack Frigate. The carrier variation of the class is just larger and carries anti-fighter weapons.

I like it!. But the described Maximus is not the same Maximus we have .

- I think in general this should be the idea behind good-vs and bad-vs for the ship classes:

Frigates
+battleships -cruisers

Destroyers
+fighters/bombers -battleships

Cruisers
+destroyers -fighters/bombers

Battleships
+cruisers -fighters/bombers

Carriers(weak in general)
-cruisers +fighters/bombers

Before anything I would like to define each ship class involved here:

• Frigate: A lightly armed ship with speed and maneuverability, most suited for patrols and escort roles.
• Destroyer: A fast and maneuverable yet long-endurance warship, suited for fleet escort with limited strike capability.
• Cruiser: Large and powerfull combatant, slower than destroyers, more durable and with good strike capabilities.
• Battleship: All out strike vessels, well armed and protected but slow.
• Carrier: A warship designed with a primary mission of deploying and recovering aircraft, generally lacking strike weapons.

Before commenting on "good vs / bad vs" I would like to state that I consider the use of these terms (game-wise) as handicaps, and that a given vessel does not necessarily must have a particular weakness/strength (handicap) against other type of vessel, some of these features are/will be automatically given by a given ship's capabilities.

If we apply the above definitions/comments to the game we will have something more like:

Frigates/Corvettes
+Fighters
+Missiles

While it is true that a frigate can use both speed and maneuverability against a battleship, game wise, a frigate's value against a battleship will be its ability to use missiles/fighters or other stand-off weaponry. Face to face a frigate will not survive a fight against a cruiser/battleship and will have a hard time against a destroyer.
Due to its features this type of ships are good for patrolling, good for spotting and engaging aggressors, due to its stand-off weaponry (fighters/missiles) it can harrass a larger enemy while reinforcements arrive.
Alongside destroyers these are excellent for armed reconnasaince, deep range patrols and behind enemy lines operations.

Destroyers
+Fighters
+Missiles

Due to its speed and decent firepower, destroyers are good as escorts, for hit-and-run tactics, for targets of oportunity and for system patrol (tho somewhat expensive for this last role). Might stand its ground against a cruiser, and will be breakfast for a battleship.
Alongside frigates and corvettes these are excellent for armed reconnasaince, deep range patrols and behind enemy lines operations.

Cruisers
+Planetary Defenses

Good frontline combatants, their durability and firepower will allow them to be used in fleet engagements and planetary bombardment. A decent point defense system will prevent it from being ovewhelmed by fighters/missiles. Some of these have long range weapons.
Not too slow, durable, well armed and usually equipped with fighters, this kind of ship its truly multi-purpose, however its too expensive to be used for normal patrol duties.

Battleships
-Fighters
-Missiles

Excellent frontline combatants, anything short of another battleship will have a hard time against one of these. Very good in ship-ship, fleet engagements and planetary bombardment. Often equiped with long range weaponry. However these ships are slow, very expensive and since most of its weapons are offesive ones, a battleship requires escorts to protect it against fighter/missile attacks.

Carriers
-Fighters
-Missiles

Poorly armed and protected, its strength lies in its fighter squadrons, it requires a whole carrier battlegroup in order to be safely deployed. Due to its cargo the carrier is an excelent support ship for any fleet, as its numerous fighters will prevent the enemy fighters from attacking itself and its fleet as well as be usefull in harrasing the enemy ships and planetary defenses. Some carriers have sacrificed cargo capacity in order to obtain a limited strike capability.

Take note that most of the quoted proposals will already be covered by the ships capabilities (i.e. a cruiser by its strength alone will have a +destroyers), however some others I think are not (generally) accurate (i.e. a carrier is no anti-fighter platform).

 

[reynanuy]

I mostly agree with what you have pointed out PV, there is only 3 points I wanted to make though. First in B5 and other sci fi shows, squadrons of frigates are shown taking on battleships or their equivalents with great success. One example are the White Stars against the Shadow Battlecrab. The thing is that frigates can be very fast while still packing quite a punch, thus they are good against heavy armored and slow targets. The other thing is that the design I proposed was done so to reflect an overall balance so all classes of ships had their role in a fleet, given the fact that their weakness and strengths are decreased/augmented by others. A final thought would be that the reason I gave the carriers a + against fighters/bombers is because every carrier I've seen is packed with lots of anti-fighter weapons and this mirrors real life in some casses, specialy in WW2 carriers.

 

[PsiCorps]

Hi Guys, I've read through all of the posts regarding the ships and would like to point out the following.
Having all Frigates with a combat strength of, for example 8, works well for the standard FF game. Giving them all the ability to carry missiles is fine becasue it keeps all of the ships balanced out between the Civs.
Taking away the capability of one to carry missiles and changing one to allow it to carry fighters means an awful lot more balancing needs to be done.
The Frigate that can no longer carry missiles needs to have a higher combat strength to counteract the missiles of the other frigates.
The Frigate that now carries fighters would also have a lower base combat strength to allow for the bonus strength they get from the fighters. In addition to this the AI controlled ships never carry misiles or fighters so any play balance worked out for the ships becomes pointless as a player controlled Frigate with no fighters or missiles will tend to defeat the AI units very easily. Multi player games would not suffer this imbalance as players tend to make the most of the units they can build.
So, whilst I am happy to move the ships around to match more accurately the Canon Lore we have from Reynanuy actually making the ships combat strengths/abilities match Canon will be more problematic.

Here is the latest ship, the Dilgar Garasoch Class Carrier, it is their second carrier.

Another wonderful ship Premier, I'll add it asap.

 

[Premier Valle]

First in B5 and other sci fi shows, squadrons of frigates are shown taking on battleships or their equivalents with great success. One example are the White Stars against the Shadow Battlecrab. The thing is that frigates can be very fast while still packing quite a punch, thus they are good against heavy armored and slow targets.
The other thing is that the design I proposed was done so to reflect an overall balance so all classes of ships had their role in a fleet, given the fact that their weakness and strengths are decreased/augmented by others.
A final thought would be that the reason I gave the carriers a + against fighters/bombers is because every carrier I've seen is packed with lots of anti-fighter weapons and this mirrors real life in some casses, specialy in WW2 carriers.

I completely agree with everything you say. However, when we try to port these facts "from TV show to the Game" we find some issues, mainly the fact that in the mod we are limited to two dimentions, and that only a single ship can attack in a given moment.
Lets take an example:

• in the TV show you can take lets say 7 whitestars to attack a Shadow vessel, all 7 whitestars attack at the same time, you'll loose 3-4 whitestars but will take out the shadow ship.
• in the game you can take the same 7 whitestars against a battleship, but only 1 will be able to attack in a given moment, it is more likely that the battleship will be able to take out all whitestars, that is why I propose other means to make this happen, with the frigates attacking a battleship with missiles before going against the battleship themselves, the frigates will have a better chance of taking out the BS

Hi Guys, I've read through all of the posts regarding the ships and would like to point out the following.
Having all Frigates with a combat strength of, for example 8, works well for the standard FF game. Giving them all the ability to carry missiles is fine becasue it keeps all of the ships balanced out between the Civs.
Taking away the capability of one to carry missiles and changing one to allow it to carry fighters means an awful lot more balancing needs to be done.
The Frigate that can no longer carry missiles needs to have a higher combat strength to counteract the missiles of the other frigates.
The Frigate that now carries fighters would also have a lower base combat strength to allow for the bonus strength they get from the fighters. In addition to this the AI controlled ships never carry misiles or fighters so any play balance worked out for the ships becomes pointless as a player controlled Frigate with no fighters or missiles will tend to defeat the AI units very easily. Multi player games would not suffer this imbalance as players tend to make the most of the units they can build.
So, whilst I am happy to move the ships around to match more accurately the Canon Lore we have from Reynanuy actually making the ships combat strengths/abilities match Canon will be more problematic.

Indeed balancing the ships once they have unique features will be hard. I say we first standardize all ships and the fine tune them.
And getting a little ahead of myself: the frigate that carries fightes will certainly loose strike power on a single turn, but this is compensated because the frigate´s fighters will be around longer than the missiles (multi-turn usage).

On other news, the Drazi Sunhawk model is 95% finished, of course, this is only the model, I still need to paint it and get it into the game, overall advance 45%.

 

[Ajidica]

With the ships, it would be possible to establish 'damage caps' on the amount of damage an attacking ship can recieve. If they hit that, they withdraw. This could be used to even the fight out for the whitestars when they gang up against a shadow vessel.

Or have I been away from Civ4 for too long and that tag only works for how much damage a defending unit can recieve/how much an attacking unit can give?

 

[PsiCorps]

With the ships, it would be possible to establish 'damage caps' on the amount of damage an attacking ship can recieve. If they hit that, they withdraw. This could be used to even the fight out for the whitestars when they gang up against a shadow vessel.

Or have I been away from Civ4 for too long and that tag only works for how much damage a defending unit can recieve/how much an attacking unit can give?

There is a withdraw chance after x amount of damage has been done. From the Modiki

iWithdrawalProb - The percent withdrawal chance the unit has. Maximum Value is in GlobalDefines.xml

So yes this can be set.

 

[Ajidica]

That could be useful in giving frigates and lighter ships a use against heavy battleships. If they get some first strikes they can do some damage and quickly pull out representing their greater maneuverability.

 

[God-Emperor]

You can't set the amount of damage it is willing to take before it attempts to withdraw. A withdrawal happens if the attacker has lost a round of combat where the damage from that round would have killed it (and it made the percentage chance of withdrawing, of course), so a unit that withdraws is always relatively close to being dead and if it fails the percent chance check then it is dead.

Unless, of course, you modify the DLL.

 

[Ajidica]

Blech, I've been away from civ modding too long.
Perhaps the same function that keeps the catapult from dealing critical damage could be used in combination with first strikes? Set it so that the frigate can only deal perhaps 20% damage to a unit and make most of that in first strikes. That way frigates can gain up against capital ships like in the show. It also works well in frigate v. frigate combat. Their combat seemed to be much more looser then the capital ships. eg: how in season 4/5 (don't remember which) Delenn and her White Stars were driven back from a Drakh mothership but they regrouped to come back and destroy it.

 

[Premier Valle]

Hello everyone!,

Just to show you the newest ship, fresh from the shipyard , here is the Drazi Sunhawk:

• Poly count: 1424
• Animation: FF Destroyer
• Damage/Gloss/Glow: Yes/Yes/Yes
• FX extra polys: 221

Civilopedia:

Combat:

Damaged:

Yes its a little bit high on the poly count, the following Drazi ships will have fewer (at less quality )

These ships work on packs, so I think this unit should have a couple of ships, rather than just a single vessel.

 

[The_J]

Looks fancy .

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yeah, this is one good looking ship!!

 

[PsiCorps]

Hello everyone!,

Just to show you the newest ship, fresh from the shipyard , here is the Drazi Sunhawk:

• Poly count: 1424
• Animation: FF Destroyer
• Damage/Gloss/Glow: Yes/Yes/Yes
• FX extra polys: 221

Civilopedia:

Combat:

Damaged:

Yes its a little bit high on the poly count, the following Drazi ships will have fewer (at less quality )

These ships work on packs, so I think this unit should have a couple of ships, rather than just a single vessel.

Another excellent ship Premier.

The Drazi also sold this ship to some other races so a simple reskin should go some way to filling in some ships for other civs.

 

[Premier Valle]

Hello!

The Drazi also sold this ship to some other races so a simple reskin should go some way to filling in some ships for other civs.

Indeed, but before we need to define which races so I can do appropiate reskins for them.

This also brings another question,... which Drazi ships are to be modelled?, I have an initial draft, and I hope you all can elaborate more on this:

Here are some links: Sky Serpent, StrikeHawk Harrier, Claweagle, Firebird, Fireraptor, StormFalcon, Phoenix

I have a few pictures of the "Star Snake", "Solar Hawk" and "Warbird".

One thing I noticed is that the Drazi have several variants in use, the "SunHawk" series for one, how should we handle this? different skins? different sizes? different models?

In the mean time, I will continue with the Dilgar ships and other LoNAW canon ships.

 

[PsiCorps]

Hi guys, sorry for the lack of feedback from me, unemployment really sucks and has not left me free to do any work on the mod (though you might expect it would) As soon as i have a stable income again and can afford to relax i'll be doing more work on the mod. Keep up the good work Premier and Reynanuy, keep posting to let me know what's going on (I get the alerts) and as soon as i'm working again i'll add in all the work you've done.

 

[flimo]

Hi guys, it's a great mod, but i have a big problem.

I played with many races, but with any of them, I can build all of the lonaw(?) ships. When I can build the first Starfury with EA, the Abbai Kotha also appears ~10 times in the build menu. And that's with the other type of ships too. Also the AI can build them, 'cause they rarely build their own ships, instead they attack me with hyach uratha kal (or something like that), and if i stick to my races ships, usually i'm weaker. Also it spams the build quee, makes hard to find the item i want to build.