A Better AI.

[kettyo]

Did you ever see the modifiers of diplomacy that I talked about between AIs?

No never but the positive ones neither ("you gave help" etc.)
That's because the AI's have 2 sided relation i think (they feel differently about each other).
And the AI-human relation is 1 sided. They can't know how you really feel about them etc.

I don't have a problem with this.

If you choose your sides well it's no problem. You have to help your friends and kick out the 'enemies'. So simple.
And make sure your side remains in 1 piece.

My problem is that they rarely get really bad relations with each other. (without my intrics)

 

[Arlborn]

No never but the positive ones neither ("you gave help" etc.)
That's because the AI's have 2 sided relation i think (they feel differently about each other).
And the AI-human relation is 1 sided. They can't know how you really feel about them etc.

I don't have a problem with this.

If you choose your sides well it's no problem. You have to help your friends and kick out the 'enemies'. So simple.
And make sure your side remains in 1 piece.

Would be really nice if they had the help and demand stuff, this really would make things more hot between themselves. It would make them hate more each other and love more each other what generates more war, what generates more questions for you(THAT is something that I want too, AI asking AIs to join WARS) what probably also generates more wars for the human players. Wouldent you like it??

 

[kettyo]

Did you ever see the modifiers of diplomacy that I talked about between AIs?

Actually they can ask other AI to join a war.
Have seen this numerous times.
It gives a -1 modifier "brought in a war ally against us" from the attacked that's all

But sure they don't face a -1 penalty if refuse.

I think the AI-AI diplomacy is done with a different mechanism.
I don't care. Just they felt more bad towards each other would be good

 

[Arlborn]

Actually they can ask other AI to join a war.
Have seen this numerous times.
It gives a -1 modifier "brought in a war ally against us" from the attacker that's all

But sure they don't face a -1 penalty if refuse.

I think the AI-AI diplomacy is done with a different mechanism.
I don't care. Just they felt more bad towards each other would be good

But more negative modifiers would help them to feel more bad towards each other ^^
But lets drop that spam talking hehe, lets leave it to Blake(or Firaxis<dreams>).

 

[kettyo]

Would be really nice if they had the help and demand stuff, this really would make things more hot between themselves. It would make them hate more each other and love more each other what generates more war, what generates more questions for you(THAT is something that I want too, AI asking AIs to join WARS) what probably also generates more wars for the human players. Wouldent you like it??

I surely would.
I don't know whether it's possible though.
I think it's more hard coded but Blake surely knows.
The most annoying is the 'stop trade' request where if you refuse you get a penalty from the asker if you accept you get one from the embargoed civ.
Unfair isn't it? From who do you want a slap? Choose!

 

[Arlborn]

I surely would.
I don't know whether it's possible though.
I think it's more hard coded but Blake surely knows.
The most annoying is the 'stop trade' request where if you refuse you get a penalty from the asker if you accept you get one from the embargoed civ.
Unfair isn't it? From who do you want a slap? Choose!

Yes! This kind of things would be lovely for the AI! Imagine an AI stopping to trade with you because other requested

Oh, dream on dream on dream on..

 

[kettyo]

But more negative modifiers would help them to feel more bad towards each other ^^
But lets drop that spam talking hehe, lets leave it to Blake(or Firaxis<dreams>).

Haven't you read Blake is considering tweaking the diplomodifiers?
It's nothing else than constructive speech on this theme.
Absolutely on topic.

Yes it would be better if not totally me dictated the pace of the game.
Because now this is the case.
I have to dictate because i'm under constant decision pressure so which AI to favor and which not.
I choose the sides and the conflict will be mastered by me too even if the war is started by someone else.
It would be good if some AI players could also master the game this way, choose sides etc but Civ4 singleplayer is wriiten this way i think.
You're not just one out of the many civs but you are the axis in diplomacy.
Civ4 multiplayer could be totally different i think (never played yet)
Civ1/Civnet was a different experience. You felt you're just one of the many civs (apart from in original Civ1 AI civs ganged up on you if you took the lead which was VERY frustrating thank the gods they cut this off for CivNet)

 

[Arlborn]

Haven't you read Blake is considering tweaking the diplomodifiers?
It's nothing else than constructive speech on this theme.
Absolutely on topic.

Yes it would be better if not totally me dictated the pace of the game.
Because now this is the case.
I have to dictate because i'm under constant decision pressure so which AI to favor and which not.
I choose the sides and the conflict will be mastered by me too even if the war is started by someone else.
It would be good if some AI players could also master the game this way, choose sides etc but Civ4 singleplayer is wriiten this way i think.
You're not just one out of the many civs but you are the axis in diplomacy.
Civ4 multiplayer could be totally different i think (never played yet)
Civ1/Civnet was a different experience. You felt you're just one of the many civs (apart from in original Civ1 AI civs ganged up on you if you took the lead which was VERY frustrating thank the gods they cut this off for CivNet)

Yes, that is what I want! Feel like I'm just one more Civilization in the mix untill I make my way to the end, where I will be glorious or forgotten hehe! That is what I want!!! Lets hope Blake(or Firaxis) hear us!!

 

[Harrier]

Played my first game using 17-11 and 18-11 .dll.

Wanted a quick game so chose Marathon rolleyes: ) but on a small map so only 4 opponents. Usually play on Noble but obeyed all those who say "drop down a level" and played on Warlords on a Pangea map ( first time playing warlords) since my first game when Warlords EXP was released .

I chose Marathon as I wanted to fight similar units, not those a few techs behind or a few techs ahead. And that is what I got generally.

I won the game by domination in 1412 - my strongest unit being the Knight - I built about 5 of them before the win.

Observations.

The AI did not declare war on me at all.
The Wonders were easy to build, I completed all but one that I started. The AI built another six or so. (probably because of the Warlord level).
City placement and worker actions seem OK.- nothing odd occurring and a reasonable mix of farms, cottages etc. (though did not look to deeply into this aspect).

There was one city one tile away from the coast - but building on the coast would have lost it a couple of good tiles - worth more than the extra food from the lighthouse - so seemed a good choice.

The AI did trade techs I did not have, when I fell slightly behind. But I soon overtook the AI (as you would expect at Warlords level). But even then the AI would trade a tech I did not have for one of those I did have. (Maybe this was because of the Warlord level??).

When at war - the AI workers ran away quickly. I did not see the AI move units into my weaker border areas to pillage tiles, I thought they would.

Also as I stacked units next to a city they did not make many counter attacks even though they had 15+ units in the city. (to try and weaken my stronger units - suicide type mission). I did notice that one city must have rushed a catapult, or just coincidence [may have just completed or moved it]. As it was not there at the end of my turn, when I moved units upto the City - but was at the beginning of the next turn.

They did send out mounted units to attack lone weaker units I had forgot to protect - this was good.

As for culture the final results were:

Pos. Me AI.
1. 18574 , 12928
2. 9472 , 12072
3. 4955 , 7055

The cultural AI was India who I had good relations with all game.


I have the save game the turn after the win if you want to see it.

Next game will be the same conditions except for Noble setting and different Civ.


The reason I chose Pangea is because with the Firaxis patch 208 on a fractal map, the AI would not trade with me once I dropped slightly behind in techs.

So even though I had a stronger military (though older units) I could only defend - not attack [whilest waiting to get frigates and galleons]. By then the AI had transports and destroyers. In the end I lost to AI time victory.

After my next Pangea - I will try Fractal at Warlords and Noble to see how they pan out - all at marathon but small maps.

My overall impressions are that the AI changes you have made will not make Warlords to difficult for most players at least not on Pangea.


Hope this will help you Blake.

 

[Iustus]

I believe part of the problem is that in Civ4, the difficulty level does two different things. It really would work much better if you had two different settings.

On the one hand, it changes things that effect human and AI alike, like how much happy and health cities start with, how barbarians spawn, etc.

On the other hand, if effects the bonuses the AI is given to give it an edge (or handicap) vs the human player.

Of these two, the second is really the bigger factor. But what you notice most, is the happiness cap of your cities, the very first turn.

So, taking the opposite approach as the previous one, enclosed is "Monarch Handicaps", which can be used as a mod or move the xml folder into the CustomAssets folder in ~MyDocuments/My Games.

This one gives you nine different difficulty levels all based on Monarch difficulty. The "Settler" difficulty in this one is Monarch with the AI bonuses set to settler level, while the "Deity" difficulty is Monarch with the AI bonuses set to the Deity difficulty. All bonuses in which the AI always uses the noble setting are identical at every level, so you are on an even playing field with the AI on these. The net effect is that the Monarch difficulty in this mod is a bit easier, since the AIs have a smaller edge, the Settler-Prince Difficulties are much much closer to this Monarch, and the Immortal and Deity settings are also closer to Monarch, being less of a step up.

The end result is that you have 9 difficulty settings which are all much closer to each other, and designed for someone who likes the Monarch settings in the default game.

I have also included the "Fair Handicaps" mod I posted previously, because I incorrectly structured the folders, so it would not work as a mod (it worked fine in CustomAssets)

-Iustus

 

[aelf]

Anyways, this belongs somewhere else. I truly would like to see moderator intervention soon, if this thread doesn't get back on topic soon. The topic is Blake's AI improvements, not how much you love builder games.

Ho, ho, ho. What do you want them to do? Ban me?

EDIT: You know, what? I can't be bothered with your lies. I don't think I should dignify them with any vehemence on my part. Still, my thanks to Alrborn and Sam Yeager. You guys showed me that there are still intelligent and reasonable people around. Now I shall make good on the promise ignore everything those fools say from this point on.

 

[Willem]

Just reassure me that noble is still noble - with no advantage given to AI

Noble has always had AI advantages. It gets a bonus against Barbs, it pays alot less for unit upgrades, and it has a much lower inflation rate than the human. In light of these new change, I think it's time to reexamine these bonuses and consider whether the AI needs them anymore. I'd really like to feel that playing on Noble was playing on a level filed for both human and AI.

 

[Doomed_UK]

The latest version of the file solved my crash to desktop, so I have contiued and completed my game.

Huge map (3 continents, 9 AI), customised game settings (using my mod - marathon research speed, most other setings on normal or slow speed, except for cultural expansions which are on epic settings. The difficulty setting has the AI bonuses of noble and human penalties of monarch)

No tech trading allowed.

All seemed to start even, my continent had 5 AI on it, the second continent 4 AI and the third (which was more like a large island) only one.

I had Americans, Germans and English as my near neighbours.

I grabbed hinduism and judaism easily, and buddism was founded on the other continent, so everyone on my land rapidly became hindu.

In these early stages I seemed to be doing very well - I had sufficient land (the division of land ended up very equal).

But as the game progressed the Americans and Germans started pulling away with tech (they overtook me around the time I researched liberalism) and later the Koreans on the other continent came surging forward in tech and caught up with the Germans who were dominating tech late game.

I grabbed all the early wonders except the pyramids (english got that) but none from paper onwards.

The AI was developing thier towns very well, and I was most pleased to see great merchants wandering through my land.

Warfare was limited - the Americans tried to invade the second continent, razed a few cities, but were repulsed, and the Koreans did take some land on the other continent and vassal thier victim.

I realised early on that I would not win by warfare (I concentrated on non agressive techs at the beginning) or space race (I was losing the tech race) so I went for culture early on, just winning before the Germans built the space ship.

I did manage to culture fip 4 American cities during the game.

I have played this style of game several times before, and was most impressed with the way the AI handled things now - normally I expect to become the research leader around education and then pull away, not the other way around!

 

[Instant_Cereal]

I'm still finding the tech tree to be too compressed, mainly half way through the middle ages and beyond. I mean it's 1600 and we're already in a space race. AI simply burns through the tech tree and, something I've been thinking for a while, I think it mostly has a lot to do with the fact the tech tree isn't big enough in the latter half of the game (even I can race through it on marathon).

 

[Wodan]

There are other solutions than simply saying "add more techs" (which frankly would be a herculean task, I think):

-- make modern era techs cost more

-- reduce CE bonuses (e.g., give Free Speech Med or High Upkeep, reduce it to +1 commerce per Town, and/or remove the commerce benefit and give it some other benefit; make Free Religion Med Upkeep; and/or make Printing Press benefit expire with Computers or even before).

-- do multiple of these increases, but we have to be careful that we don't make it impossible to do a space race, therefore add a "timeline" bonus. e.g., All civs get a +10% bonus to research in the 1800's, a +20% bonus between 1900 and 1950, +30% between 1950 and 1975, etc.

Wodan

 

[Doomed_UK]

as part of my own mod I added 5% to the cost of Industrial techs and 10% to the cost of Modern.

Little tweaks like this help.

 

[Quagga]

as part of my own mod I added 5% to the cost of Industrial techs and 10% to the cost of Modern.

Would increasing inflation produce a similar effect?

 

[Powerslave]

Would increasing inflation produce a similar effect?

That sounds like a good idea, actually. I think both I and the AI breeze through the techs too quickly. If you do cottage spam and swallow someone else's empire, you can zoom zoom zoom to the Modern age, even in Epic. That's about the only reason that I ever play Epic, and I hate how long my settlers take in the initial land grab. I feel like wedging a quarter next to the enter key.

So! Maybe some of the AIs should be more concerned with production, rather than cottage spam? Yes, no? I think Bismark, in particular, should concentrate on production (mines, workshops, watermills, lumbermills), rather than cottage spam. The other Industrious civs, I would imagine, should also emphasize production (through the governor and/or the workers' improvements).

Here's what I've come up with, after a little bit of thought. This should actually be pretty easy to implement through XML, with perhaps some slight SDK work to tweak how the governors function (production/growth/commerce/great people) and how the culture slider is used.

Industrious - production (to maximize the benefit of the forge and easily complete wonders), commerce (to get those wonder techs quickly)
Organized - growth (to maximize the benefit of organized and courthouses), commerce (since organized is something of a commercial trait)
Financial - commerce (of course)
Philosophical - growth (for all those great people)
Creative - commerce (to maximize the benefit of the culture slider), maybe growth (to leverage the happiness benefit of cheap theaters and colosseums)
Charismatic - growth (since they get extra happiness), maybe production (for all those military units)
Aggressive - production (for the staggering military), commerce (to pay for the military)
Spiritual - growth (to leverage the potential happiness), commerce (to maximize the benefit of the cultural slider)
Expansive - growth (of course)
Imperialistic - production (to make vassals of their neighbors), commerce (to economically conquer their neighbors)
Protective - production (I have no clue)

I think that's all of them. I'm actually kind of excited about this, because it would mean that Asoka would play differently than Montezuma. I love how Blake's AI improvements have given new life to the game, but I'd like to see even more work done to bring the different civilizations and leaders to life (for example, organized leaders running to Assembly Line, then rushing factories).

Is this something that anyone else cares about or would like to see implemented?

 

[Wodan]

Here's some more feedback on the latest build. Whatever number... it was the one put up 2 days ago.

Anyway, very interesting map. Fractal, huge, marathon, monarch, high sea level. Resulted in not just one but several isolated continents. I got one, Toku got another, Saladin got a 3rd, and barbs got a 4th. There is also a group of AIs on two closely connected continents: Hatsepshut, Isabella, Julius, Cyrus, and Asoka. (There might be another AI out there somewhere, I've only explored about half the planet.)

Since I was isolated, I determined I needed at least one religion. Anyway, I got Hinduism, Confucianism and Taoism. Also, I determined to spam like mad since I had plenty of health resources. Plus, I hardly used Slavery at all. As a result, my research has shot through the roof.

I am about 10-12 techs ahead of the AIs. (I am the only one with Optics.) Tokugawa is in the stone age and has no religion. I'm maybe 20 techs ahead of him. Saladin, interestingly enough, also has no religion but has been able to somewhat keep up... I'm only 7-8 techs ahead.

The group of AIs have Buddhism, Judaism, and Christianity. Apparently they have been fighting off and on. I saw a couple of Great Generals pop up and one that even died (didn't know you got a event log when a GG dies).

And so... my thoughts. Apparently the AI mods to be more aggressive with each other are working. I like that. It has, however, ******** their research. That's inevitable I think.

On average, I think the more aggressive tendencies will balance out with the ability to tech trade. I wouldn't put too much stock in this one data point. Nevertheless, I appreciate that I was able to do well even though I was totally isolated. In the past, this has not been the case and it was very demoralizing. (Who wants to play a game for several hours only to find out that they're in a hopeless position??)

Also, Saladin being able to keep up in research, while totally isolated, is a good thing too. Seems like Toku has trouble keeping up no matter what; nothing new there.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

There are 43 units in the garrison for Thebes.

Wodan